Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Marian If the patient still has tightness of the muscle you need to do a postisometric stretch or a counterstrain technique. This will take care of it immediately. One should never be afraid of doing deep needling if it is needed. It may be the only effective treatment and any secondary soreness and muscle tension can be easily addressed. Oakland, CA 94609 - Marian Blum Chinese Medicine Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:50 AM adverse effect of acup Kelvin, I've seen the patient 3 times. Tongue is slightly pale. Mostly thin white coat. On that day it was slightly thicker. Sometimes red dots in lung area. Orange-tinged sides sounds like a possibility. I only understand pale or red sides-what does orange mean? I'll look next time for the orange tinge. Thanks, Marian >Message: 12 Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:41:41 -0000 " acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills Re: adverse effect of acup Hi Marian I for one would be interested in hearing about the pulse and tongue... esp if the tongue has edges with an orange tinge. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum " <marianb@r...> wrote: > > Does anyone have any insight into why my patient had a bilateral > tightness/soreness in her tibialis anterior muscles after acupuncture of > ST36? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 The same day that I posted my question about my patient with tibialis anterior pain, I happened to start reading some 5 element stuff. I think you could also fashion a 5 element explanation. I know so little of 5-element but I'll take a stab at it: since she was stressed that day and her tongue showed more damp than usual, perhaps I should have cleared " aggressive energy " or taken other steps to drain the excesses before tonifying at ST 36. Marian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 I think that that may be a good idea Marian. I drain AE frequently before starting tx and find that it can be a good place to start, not only to diagnose but also to 'even things out' a little what reference material are you looking at? Carlyn Marian Blum <marianb wrote: The same day that I posted my question about my patient with tibialis anterior pain, I happened to start reading some 5 element stuff. I think you could also fashion a 5 element explanation. I know so little of 5-element but I'll take a stab at it: since she was stressed that day and her tongue showed more damp than usual, perhaps I should have cleared " aggressive energy " or taken other steps to drain the excesses before tonifying at ST 36. Marian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Anything on the pulse? Kelvin Marian Blum <marianb wrote: Kelvin, I've seen the patient 3 times. Tongue is slightly pale. Mostly thin white coat. On that day it was slightly thicker. Sometimes red dots in lung area. Orange-tinged sides sounds like a possibility. I only understand pale or red sides-what does orange mean? I'll look next time for the orange tinge. Thanks, Marian >Message: 12 Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:41:41 -0000 " acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills Re: adverse effect of acup Hi Marian I for one would be interested in hearing about the pulse and tongue... esp if the tongue has edges with an orange tinge. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum " <marianb@r...> wrote: > > Does anyone have any insight into why my patient had a bilateral > tightness/soreness in her tibialis anterior muscles after acupuncture of > ST36? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Anything on the pulse? Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum " <marianb@r...> wrote: > > Kelvin, > > > > I've seen the patient 3 times. Tongue is slightly pale. Mostly thin white > coat. On that day it was slightly thicker. Sometimes red dots in lung area. > Orange-tinged sides sounds like a possibility. I only understand pale or red > sides-what does orange mean? I'll look next time for the orange tinge. > > Thanks, > > Marian > > > > > > >Message: 12 > > Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:41:41 -0000 > > " acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills> > > Re: adverse effect of acup > > > > Hi Marian > > > > I for one would be interested in hearing about the pulse and > > tongue... esp if the tongue has edges with an orange tinge. > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum " > > <marianb@r...> wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any insight into why my patient had a bilateral > > > tightness/soreness in her tibialis anterior muscles after > > acupuncture of > > > ST36? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 My immediate thought is perhaps there is a spleen vacuity that might give rise to easy bruising which might even be subcutaneous and not visible to the eye. Perhaps the pain is from some internal bruising, which would manifest with symptoms of shin splints. It can be very sore. If you find that the patient does have spleen vacuity and bruises easily, then you need to tonify the spleen with acupuncture and herbs and perhaps, with integrative use of a whole foods Vitamin E (such as Standard Process Cataplex E). This is one way to combine Western Medicine sports medicine and Eastern medicine. Good Luck Marleen Colangelo, AP Miami, FL. 305-669-1351 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 PT Perrance What you have stated below is totally contrary to the findings of Prof C Chan Gunn, who pioneered IMS (intramuscular stimulation). My own experience is mixed in this area - sometimes I get a relaxing effect and sometimes a tightening effect. I'm still trying to sort out exactly why. Best regards, David Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf1@a...> wrote: > > I personally have experienced this. The spasms from deep needling caused > muscle spasm that hobbled me. Now my acupuncturist only does shallow > needling. My experience was with more than one acupuncturist over a number > of years so I don't think it is an issue of technique. If we need > tonification we do warming moxa. If the moxa gets too hot it will have the > same effect as the deep needling since it tightens the muscle. > > P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 I can only tell you my experience. I have also had the same experience as an acupuncturist with certain clients. P.T. Ferrance - David Gordon Chinese Medicine Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:59 PM Re: adverse effect of acup PT Perrance What you have stated below is totally contrary to the findings of Prof C Chan Gunn, who pioneered IMS (intramuscular stimulation). My own experience is mixed in this area - sometimes I get a relaxing effect and sometimes a tightening effect. I'm still trying to sort out exactly why. Best regards, David Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf1@a...> wrote: > > I personally have experienced this. The spasms from deep needling caused > muscle spasm that hobbled me. Now my acupuncturist only does shallow > needling. My experience was with more than one acupuncturist over a number > of years so I don't think it is an issue of technique. If we need > tonification we do warming moxa. If the moxa gets too hot it will have the > same effect as the deep needling since it tightens the muscle. > > P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 you must also distinguish between short term and long term effects. In patients that have suffered tissue texture alteration you may need to cause a strong local stimulation that initially will increase tone and pain after which both improve. When an ectopic firing node develops in a muscle shallow stimulation does not work, you need to physically brake up the tissue Oakland, CA 94609 - David Gordon Chinese Medicine Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:59 PM Re: adverse effect of acup PT Perrance What you have stated below is totally contrary to the findings of Prof C Chan Gunn, who pioneered IMS (intramuscular stimulation). My own experience is mixed in this area - sometimes I get a relaxing effect and sometimes a tightening effect. I'm still trying to sort out exactly why. Best regards, David Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf1@a...> wrote: > > I personally have experienced this. The spasms from deep needling caused > muscle spasm that hobbled me. Now my acupuncturist only does shallow > needling. My experience was with more than one acupuncturist over a number > of years so I don't think it is an issue of technique. If we need > tonification we do warming moxa. If the moxa gets too hot it will have the > same effect as the deep needling since it tightens the muscle. > > P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Carlyn, I have a Lonny Jarrett book. Marian Chinese Medicine , carly brown <carly1ca> wrote: > > I think that that may be a good idea Marian. I drain AE frequently before starting tx and find that it can be a good place to start, not only to diagnose but also to 'even things out' a little > > what reference material are you looking at? > > Carlyn > > Marian Blum <marianb@r...> wrote: > The same day that I posted my question about my patient with tibialis > anterior pain, I happened to start reading some 5 element stuff. I think you > could also fashion a 5 element explanation. I know so little of 5- element > but I'll take a stab at it: since she was stressed that day and her tongue > showed more damp than usual, perhaps I should have cleared " aggressive > energy " or taken other steps to drain the excesses before tonifying at ST > 36. > > Marian > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Kelvin, I only did the basics: left was wiry. Right was thready. K yang and yin both deep. Chinese Medicine , Kelvin Dewolfe <acupuncturebeverlyhills> wrote: > > Anything on the pulse? > > Kelvin > > Marian Blum <marianb@r...> wrote: > Kelvin, > > > > I've seen the patient 3 times. Tongue is slightly pale. Mostly thin white > coat. On that day it was slightly thicker. Sometimes red dots in lung area. > Orange-tinged sides sounds like a possibility. I only understand pale or red > sides-what does orange mean? I'll look next time for the orange tinge. > > Thanks, > > Marian > > > > > > >Message: 12 > > Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:41:41 -0000 > > " acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills> > > Re: adverse effect of acup > > > > Hi Marian > > > > I for one would be interested in hearing about the pulse and > > tongue... esp if the tongue has edges with an orange tinge. > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum " > > <marianb@r...> wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any insight into why my patient had a bilateral > > > tightness/soreness in her tibialis anterior muscles after > > acupuncture of > > > ST36? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Alon, If the patient's main complaints are asthma and digestive problems, and you wanted to use ST36 for those disorders, would you break up the tissue at ST36 to help her MCs? Perhaps you wouldn't be treating those conditions with acup at all? Marian -- In Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > you must also distinguish between short term and long term effects. In patients that have suffered tissue texture alteration you may need to cause a strong local stimulation that initially will increase tone and pain after which both improve. When an ectopic firing node develops in a muscle shallow stimulation does not work, you need to physically brake up the tissue > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > David Gordon > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:59 PM > Re: adverse effect of acup > > > PT Perrance > > What you have stated below is totally contrary to the findings of > Prof C Chan Gunn, who pioneered IMS (intramuscular stimulation). > > My own experience is mixed in this area - sometimes I get a relaxing > effect and sometimes a tightening effect. I'm still trying to sort > out exactly why. > > Best regards, David > > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > <ptf1@a...> wrote: > > > > I personally have experienced this. The spasms from deep needling > caused > > muscle spasm that hobbled me. Now my acupuncturist only does > shallow > > needling. My experience was with more than one acupuncturist over > a number > > of years so I don't think it is an issue of technique. If we need > > tonification we do warming moxa. If the moxa gets too hot it will > have the > > same effect as the deep needling since it tightens the muscle. > > > > P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Thanks, Alon, I'll take a look and probably refer her since I don't make orthotics myself. Marian Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > Hows her foot mechanics? Most likely the cause of problems > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Marian Blum > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:18 PM > adverse effect of acup > > > David, > > > > No, lately she isn't exercising a lot or regularly. I think the fact that > she has tight calves and gets frequent (1x/week) muscle cramps in them at > night is related somehow. She had an MRI of her calves and it showed > 'herniations.' She's tried a 'mineral drink' that didn't help. She's almost > certainly Bl xu with cramps and a pale tongue and SP xu. > > > > Marian > > > > >Message: 3 > > Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:27:35 -0800 (PST) > > David Tarlo <d1tarlo> > > Re: adverse effect of acup > > > > Marian Blum, > > Does she run or bicycle regularly (meaning many miles or long time on > treadmill)? > > > > --- Marian Blum <marianb@r...> wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have any insight into why my patient had a bilateral > > > tightness/soreness in her tibialis anterior muscles after acupuncture > > > of ST36? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Marian, Is she at the age where the K yang and yin would deep? Is there a chance that the st and gb positions were full and it gave the relative apearance of low kid pulses? Can you also check her feet and see if there are any discolorations between gb41 and liv1 and also see if gb 41 is tender? Kelvin marianpblac <marianb wrote: Kelvin, I only did the basics: left was wiry. Right was thready. K yang and yin both deep. Chinese Medicine , Kelvin Dewolfe <acupuncturebeverlyhills> wrote: > > Anything on the pulse? > > Kelvin > > Marian Blum <marianb@r...> wrote: > Kelvin, > > > > I've seen the patient 3 times. Tongue is slightly pale. Mostly thin white > coat. On that day it was slightly thicker. Sometimes red dots in lung area. > Orange-tinged sides sounds like a possibility. I only understand pale or red > sides-what does orange mean? I'll look next time for the orange tinge. > > Thanks, > > Marian > > > > > > >Message: 12 > > Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:41:41 -0000 > > " acupuncturebeverlyhills " <acupuncturebeverlyhills> > > Re: adverse effect of acup > > > > Hi Marian > > > > I for one would be interested in hearing about the pulse and > > tongue... esp if the tongue has edges with an orange tinge. > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Marian Blum " > > <marianb@r...> wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any insight into why my patient had a bilateral > > > tightness/soreness in her tibialis anterior muscles after > > acupuncture of > > > ST36? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Marian Somatic dysfunctions which include any atopic firing can affect organ function and therefor should be treated. So yes i do use needles as well as other techniques in these situations Oakland, CA 94609 - marianpblac Chinese Medicine Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:05 PM Re: adverse effect of acup Alon, If the patient's main complaints are asthma and digestive problems, and you wanted to use ST36 for those disorders, would you break up the tissue at ST36 to help her MCs? Perhaps you wouldn't be treating those conditions with acup at all? Marian -- In Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > you must also distinguish between short term and long term effects. In patients that have suffered tissue texture alteration you may need to cause a strong local stimulation that initially will increase tone and pain after which both improve. When an ectopic firing node develops in a muscle shallow stimulation does not work, you need to physically brake up the tissue > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > David Gordon > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:59 PM > Re: adverse effect of acup > > > PT Perrance > > What you have stated below is totally contrary to the findings of > Prof C Chan Gunn, who pioneered IMS (intramuscular stimulation). > > My own experience is mixed in this area - sometimes I get a relaxing > effect and sometimes a tightening effect. I'm still trying to sort > out exactly why. > > Best regards, David > > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > <ptf1@a...> wrote: > > > > I personally have experienced this. The spasms from deep needling > caused > > muscle spasm that hobbled me. Now my acupuncturist only does > shallow > > needling. My experience was with more than one acupuncturist over > a number > > of years so I don't think it is an issue of technique. If we need > > tonification we do warming moxa. If the moxa gets too hot it will > have the > > same effect as the deep needling since it tightens the muscle. > > > > P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 why vit E? why not others that do effect clotting more directly, and high vit E can thin blood farther Oakland, CA 94609 - AcuChi1 Chinese Medicine Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:55 PM Re: Re: adverse effect of acup My immediate thought is perhaps there is a spleen vacuity that might give rise to easy bruising which might even be subcutaneous and not visible to the eye. Perhaps the pain is from some internal bruising, which would manifest with symptoms of shin splints. It can be very sore. If you find that the patient does have spleen vacuity and bruises easily, then you need to tonify the spleen with acupuncture and herbs and perhaps, with integrative use of a whole foods Vitamin E (such as Standard Process Cataplex E). This is one way to combine Western Medicine sports medicine and Eastern medicine. Good Luck Marleen Colangelo, AP Miami, FL. 305-669-1351 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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