Master Tung's Tradition was, The problem with cookbooks

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon,

 

I believe it is because Master Tung was really a foremost practitioner of

acupuncture and not of TCM, and truly skilled in the art of Jin Zhen (Golden

Needle). He did not look at shoulder pain necessarily as Wind/Cold Damp Bi

Syndrome as today's TCM practitioners do; rather, he looks at which channel

is involved and works from there.

 

 

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

 

 

> " " <alonmarcus

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Re: The problem with cookbooks

>Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:43:42 -0800

>

>Robert I agree, it is channel based however and not deep theoretical

>analysis of pathomechas

>

>

>

>

>Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> Robert Chu

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, January 10, 2006 1:53 PM

> Re: Re: The problem with cookbooks

>

>

> Nice post Alon!

>

> The one thing about Tong (Tung) style is that it is supposed to lead the

> practitioner to figure out Rx's based on channels and diagnosis (albeit

>not

> Zang Fu TCM diagnosis), and then come up with infinite methods of

>treating

> with acupuncture or bloodletting - and not rely on the formulary or

>Master

> Tung, Young Wei-chieh or others. Many who teach the Tung style these

>days

> only teach a formulary, but that is only an example. In understanding

>the

> system, we can create new Rx's daily!

>

>

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

> chusauli

>

> See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

>

>

>

>

>

> > " " <alonmarcus

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Re: The problem with cookbooks

> >Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:09:32 -0800

> >

> >while in my own practice i for the most part prescribe formulas based

>on

> >pattern diagnosis i do not believe we can dismiss empirical practices

>as

> >inferior. As i shared in the past at the hospital i worked in china

>there

> >were a few very old practitioners that were very popular and did not

>go

> >through traditional schooling and did not use TCM as we mostly learn

>it.

> >They mostly practiced large formulae empirical preparations. They only

> >asked about chief complaint and that is it. You could see that almost

>all

> >with the same complaint got the same Rx. Two of these Dr were by far

>the

> >most popular in the outpatient clinics and had quite a reputation.

>Also, in

> >many ways Tong style acupuncture is formulary with little differential

> >diagnosis and at the same time the most effective style i have come

>across.

> >I know as practitioners of TCM its hard to let go of the ideas we were

> >taught about individual formulations but in China there are many who

>feel

> >otherwise.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> > Roger Wicke

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Monday, January 09, 2006 12:24 PM

> > Re: The problem with cookbooks

> >

> >

> > Hi Tom,

> > Almost by chance I saw your post, as I receive the digest of this

> > list and scan it due to lack of time. Here is an article on our

> > website that explains further the problems with cookbook approaches

> > in TCM:

> >

> > http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html

> > 2002 #2. Computer-aided instruction in TCM clinical analysis

>and

> > decision-making skills.

> >

> > ---Roger Wicke PhD

> > Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute

> > website: www.rmhiherbal.org

> > email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

> >

> >

> > On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:50, Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom

> > wrote:

> >

> > > I believe Roger Wicke from the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute is

> > > also on

> > > this list and I`m sure he could say a thing or two about cookbooks

>and

> > > flowcharts. Roger runs a message board for his students, and on it

> > > he has

> > > written about how to use books like the Sionneau series from Blue

> > > Poppy.

> > > Roger reminds us not to be lazy and keep our diagnostic skills

> > > sharp, and

> > > not to rely too much on protocols.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

> > and

>adjust

> >accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> >group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> >absolutely necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Which brings us to a very important point. Acupuncture/moxabustion

is often lumped together with Chinese 'herbal medicine', which can be

an over-simplification. The practice of herbal medicine has

different diagnostic and treatment criteria from acupuncture/

moxabustion. As you both point out, it is channel based, rather than

zang-fu/viscera-bowel based in nature. This leads to different

diagnostic and treatment criteria. Also, there are many more

approaches to acupuncture (Master Tung, abdominal, face, nose, hand,

foot, , Voll, ear systems, traditional channel systems, etc.) than to

herbal medicine.

 

 

On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Hi Alon,

>

> I believe it is because Master Tung was really a foremost

> practitioner of

> acupuncture and not of TCM, and truly skilled in the art of Jin

> Zhen (Golden

> Needle). He did not look at shoulder pain necessarily as Wind/Cold

> Damp Bi

> Syndrome as today's TCM practitioners do; rather, he looks at which

> channel

> is involved and works from there.

>

>

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev

The Drs i was talking about at the hospital did only herbs. They did however use

their own empirical based formulas to treat specific major complaints

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:33 PM

Re: Master Tung's Tradition was, Re: Re: The problem with

cookbooks

 

 

Which brings us to a very important point. Acupuncture/moxabustion

is often lumped together with Chinese 'herbal medicine', which can be

an over-simplification. The practice of herbal medicine has

different diagnostic and treatment criteria from acupuncture/

moxabustion. As you both point out, it is channel based, rather than

zang-fu/viscera-bowel based in nature. This leads to different

diagnostic and treatment criteria. Also, there are many more

approaches to acupuncture (Master Tung, abdominal, face, nose, hand,

foot, , Voll, ear systems, traditional channel systems, etc.) than to

herbal medicine.

 

On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Hi Alon,

>

> I believe it is because Master Tung was really a foremost

> practitioner of

> acupuncture and not of TCM, and truly skilled in the art of Jin

> Zhen (Golden

> Needle). He did not look at shoulder pain necessarily as Wind/Cold

> Damp Bi

> Syndrome as today's TCM practitioners do; rather, he looks at which

> channel

> is involved and works from there.

>

>

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Can you share some examples? I for one would be very interested in

their cases and prescriptions used.

 

 

On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:52 PM, wrote:

 

> Zev

> The Drs i was talking about at the hospital did only herbs. They

> did however use their own empirical based formulas to treat

> specific major complaints

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I never took notes because i could not understand their approach and at that

time i was idealistic (or should i say naive) in terms of TCM. Most educated Drs

looked down at these Drs because they did not do the same differential

diagnosis. Both used very large formulas 25-40 herbs. They were the only Drs

allowed to practice at the hospital without formal schooling. All the other

family trained Dr went through formal training at some point. Because these two

were so well known (they were at least in their 80s) they were allowed to

practice anyway.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:57 PM

Re: Master Tung's Tradition was, Re: Re: The problem with

cookbooks

 

 

Can you share some examples? I for one would be very interested in

their cases and prescriptions used.

 

On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:52 PM, wrote:

 

> Zev

> The Drs i was talking about at the hospital did only herbs. They

> did however use their own empirical based formulas to treat

> specific major complaints

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Actually I was wondering if Alon could shed some light on the theoretical

background of the techniques he observed. I was thinking: if the doctors

with the large non-specific prescriptions were having excellent results, why

so? There must be some theoretical framework for them to rationalize the use

of their formulas, even for different patients.

I don't know Tung style acupuncture, what are the theories behind the style?

 

Tom.

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Master Tung's Tradition was, Re: Re: The problem with

>cookbooks

>Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:33:51 -0800

>

>Which brings us to a very important point. Acupuncture/moxabustion

>is often lumped together with Chinese 'herbal medicine', which can be

>an over-simplification. The practice of herbal medicine has

>different diagnostic and treatment criteria from acupuncture/

>moxabustion. As you both point out, it is channel based, rather than

>zang-fu/viscera-bowel based in nature. This leads to different

>diagnostic and treatment criteria. Also, there are many more

>approaches to acupuncture (Master Tung, abdominal, face, nose, hand,

>foot, , Voll, ear systems, traditional channel systems, etc.) than to

>herbal medicine.

>

>

>On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Robert Chu wrote: