Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 The problem with cookbooks is that they may have several recipes for chocolate cake, muffins and apple pie, but what if the guest really needs lemon cake? : ) Seriously though. Attilio mentioned the cookbook approach as observed in China. I have also seen this, e.g. for shoulder pain and indeed for weight loss. BUT this is not regarded as good quality Chinese medicine by the more experienced doctors. There is a weight loss treatment room in the Nanjing Provinical Hospital, and the two doctors in there would do nothing but smoke cigarettes, until their first patients appeared in the afternoon. In contrast, Dr Sheng Can-Ruo would be seeing 30 or more patients in the morning alone, and one would never know what his point prescriptions were until after he had inserted the needles. Every day he would treat many cases of facial paralysis, and there was no protocol to be observed. There was another doctor just across dr Sheng´s room, and he had developed a point protocol for facial paralysis. He would explain it quite proudly to many of the visiting foreign students. My point is that the lao zhongyi do not care much for protocols. Yes they are handy and they are very useful for further study, but copying them without giving it a second thought will never make us a real chef. Perhaps a rather good home-cook, but why should we be happy and stop at that level? I believe Roger Wicke from the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute is also on this list and I`m sure he could say a thing or two about cookbooks and flowcharts. Roger runs a message board for his students, and on it he has written about how to use books like the Sionneau series from Blue Poppy. Roger reminds us not to be lazy and keep our diagnostic skills sharp, and not to rely too much on protocols. Any other thoughts? Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Hi Tom, Almost by chance I saw your post, as I receive the digest of this list and scan it due to lack of time. Here is an article on our website that explains further the problems with cookbook approaches in TCM: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html 2002 #2. Computer-aided instruction in TCM clinical analysis and decision-making skills. ---Roger Wicke PhD Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute website: www.rmhiherbal.org email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:50, Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom wrote: > I believe Roger Wicke from the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute is > also on > this list and I`m sure he could say a thing or two about cookbooks and > flowcharts. Roger runs a message board for his students, and on it > he has > written about how to use books like the Sionneau series from Blue > Poppy. > Roger reminds us not to be lazy and keep our diagnostic skills > sharp, and > not to rely too much on protocols. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 while in my own practice i for the most part prescribe formulas based on pattern diagnosis i do not believe we can dismiss empirical practices as inferior. As i shared in the past at the hospital i worked in china there were a few very old practitioners that were very popular and did not go through traditional schooling and did not use TCM as we mostly learn it. They mostly practiced large formulae empirical preparations. They only asked about chief complaint and that is it. You could see that almost all with the same complaint got the same Rx. Two of these Dr were by far the most popular in the outpatient clinics and had quite a reputation. Also, in many ways Tong style acupuncture is formulary with little differential diagnosis and at the same time the most effective style i have come across. I know as practitioners of TCM its hard to let go of the ideas we were taught about individual formulations but in China there are many who feel otherwise. Oakland, CA 94609 - Roger Wicke Chinese Medicine Monday, January 09, 2006 12:24 PM Re: The problem with cookbooks Hi Tom, Almost by chance I saw your post, as I receive the digest of this list and scan it due to lack of time. Here is an article on our website that explains further the problems with cookbook approaches in TCM: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html 2002 #2. Computer-aided instruction in TCM clinical analysis and decision-making skills. ---Roger Wicke PhD Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute website: www.rmhiherbal.org email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:50, Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom wrote: > I believe Roger Wicke from the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute is > also on > this list and I`m sure he could say a thing or two about cookbooks and > flowcharts. Roger runs a message board for his students, and on it > he has > written about how to use books like the Sionneau series from Blue > Poppy. > Roger reminds us not to be lazy and keep our diagnostic skills > sharp, and > not to rely too much on protocols. Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Nice post Alon! The one thing about Tong (Tung) style is that it is supposed to lead the practitioner to figure out Rx's based on channels and diagnosis (albeit not Zang Fu TCM diagnosis), and then come up with infinite methods of treating with acupuncture or bloodletting - and not rely on the formulary or Master Tung, Young Wei-chieh or others. Many who teach the Tung style these days only teach a formulary, but that is only an example. In understanding the system, we can create new Rx's daily! Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: The problem with cookbooks >Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:09:32 -0800 > >while in my own practice i for the most part prescribe formulas based on >pattern diagnosis i do not believe we can dismiss empirical practices as >inferior. As i shared in the past at the hospital i worked in china there >were a few very old practitioners that were very popular and did not go >through traditional schooling and did not use TCM as we mostly learn it. >They mostly practiced large formulae empirical preparations. They only >asked about chief complaint and that is it. You could see that almost all >with the same complaint got the same Rx. Two of these Dr were by far the >most popular in the outpatient clinics and had quite a reputation. Also, in >many ways Tong style acupuncture is formulary with little differential >diagnosis and at the same time the most effective style i have come across. >I know as practitioners of TCM its hard to let go of the ideas we were >taught about individual formulations but in China there are many who feel >otherwise. > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Roger Wicke > Chinese Medicine > Monday, January 09, 2006 12:24 PM > Re: The problem with cookbooks > > > Hi Tom, > Almost by chance I saw your post, as I receive the digest of this > list and scan it due to lack of time. Here is an article on our > website that explains further the problems with cookbook approaches > in TCM: > > http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html > 2002 #2. Computer-aided instruction in TCM clinical analysis and > decision-making skills. > > ---Roger Wicke PhD > Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute > website: www.rmhiherbal.org > email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ > > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:50, Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom > wrote: > > > I believe Roger Wicke from the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute is > > also on > > this list and I`m sure he could say a thing or two about cookbooks and > > flowcharts. Roger runs a message board for his students, and on it > > he has > > written about how to use books like the Sionneau series from Blue > > Poppy. > > Roger reminds us not to be lazy and keep our diagnostic skills > > sharp, and > > not to rely too much on protocols. > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust >accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if >absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Robert I agree, it is channel based however and not deep theoretical analysis of pathomechas Oakland, CA 94609 - Robert Chu Chinese Medicine Tuesday, January 10, 2006 1:53 PM Re: Re: The problem with cookbooks Nice post Alon! The one thing about Tong (Tung) style is that it is supposed to lead the practitioner to figure out Rx's based on channels and diagnosis (albeit not Zang Fu TCM diagnosis), and then come up with infinite methods of treating with acupuncture or bloodletting - and not rely on the formulary or Master Tung, Young Wei-chieh or others. Many who teach the Tung style these days only teach a formulary, but that is only an example. In understanding the system, we can create new Rx's daily! Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > " " <alonmarcus >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Re: The problem with cookbooks >Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:09:32 -0800 > >while in my own practice i for the most part prescribe formulas based on >pattern diagnosis i do not believe we can dismiss empirical practices as >inferior. As i shared in the past at the hospital i worked in china there >were a few very old practitioners that were very popular and did not go >through traditional schooling and did not use TCM as we mostly learn it. >They mostly practiced large formulae empirical preparations. They only >asked about chief complaint and that is it. You could see that almost all >with the same complaint got the same Rx. Two of these Dr were by far the >most popular in the outpatient clinics and had quite a reputation. Also, in >many ways Tong style acupuncture is formulary with little differential >diagnosis and at the same time the most effective style i have come across. >I know as practitioners of TCM its hard to let go of the ideas we were >taught about individual formulations but in China there are many who feel >otherwise. > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > Roger Wicke > Chinese Medicine > Monday, January 09, 2006 12:24 PM > Re: The problem with cookbooks > > > Hi Tom, > Almost by chance I saw your post, as I receive the digest of this > list and scan it due to lack of time. Here is an article on our > website that explains further the problems with cookbook approaches > in TCM: > > http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2002-2.html > 2002 #2. Computer-aided instruction in TCM clinical analysis and > decision-making skills. > > ---Roger Wicke PhD > Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute > website: www.rmhiherbal.org > email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ > > > On Jan 9, 2006, at 12:50, Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom > wrote: > > > I believe Roger Wicke from the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute is > > also on > > this list and I`m sure he could say a thing or two about cookbooks and > > flowcharts. Roger runs a message board for his students, and on it > > he has > > written about how to use books like the Sionneau series from Blue > > Poppy. > > Roger reminds us not to be lazy and keep our diagnostic skills > > sharp, and > > not to rely too much on protocols. > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust >accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if >absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.