Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi All, I was pondering my elderly patient with post-herpetic neuralgia today. His pain is along the gallbladder and san jiao channels around the ear, down the neck, and across the ribs of his right side. This latter pain, in the ribs, is new, even through his rash has been " healed " since late summer. His pain is quite severe, stabbing, burning, and causes him to grab his neck or head or back when it comes on, and he grimaces terribly. Acupuncture has lessened the severity of his symptoms, but not enough to keep him from thoughts of dying. His health is complicated by severe COPD and emphysema. His pulse is rapid, wiry, choppy, and shakes quite alot. Today for the first time, it was more deficient and weak than excess. His tongue is enlarged, quite deviated, and deeply reddish-purple; in the past he exhibited a thick, yellow, dry, cottage-cheesy coat, but today it was almost a mirror tongue with a small patch of thick dry coat in the rear. In the past 2 weeks he as been on a high dose of a drug called lyrica, to control the pain, and discontinued his acupuncture treatments. During this time, his symptoms became more severe, and he developed the new area of pain along the ribside. I suspect the changes in his tongue and pulse are also due to the medication, as I can find no other logical explanation. As I was noticing the involvement of the gallbladder and san jiao channels, I found myself thinking of his case of shingles as a shao yang type of disease, and so the question came to mind: can xiao chai hu tang be useful in his case? Has anyone used xiao chai hu tang for this type of presentation or anything similar? I have not recommended herbs to date due to the large number of prescription medicines his doctors have him taking, but if he is saying life isn't worth living with this pain, I think it may be appropriate to offer herbal medicine. Thank you for your assistance, Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 My first thought would be that the mirror tongue and weakened pulses are indicating Yin damage, whether from progression of the Interior Heat or from medication side effects, or both. In any case, xiao chai hu tang would not seem to be appropriate, as it may likely aggravate the Yin Deficiency even more. How about considering a formula like Artemisia Annua and Soft-shelled Turtle Shell [Qing- Hao\ Bie- Jia~ Tang-] or Clear the Nutritive Level Decoction [Qing- Ying/ Tang-]? (Artemisia Annua will vent heat from the ShaoYang without damaging the Yin.) With perhaps a few cooling blood-movers added like dan shen and chi shao, since there seems to be a relatively severe blood stasis (stabbing pains, purple tongue hue, choppy pulse). Without enough cooling blood movers, an ordinary Yin-tonic+Clear Heat Toxins formula might not work well, because the Blood Stasis prevents the herbs' effects from penetrating the affected tissues. I've used tu fu ling (Rz Smilacis Glabrae) with good results for herpes associated with Heat Toxin signs, which would seem to fit here also. ---Roger Wicke PhD Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute website: www.rmhiherbal.org email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ On Jan 4, 2006, at 11:25, wrote: > < > xiao chai hu tang for post-herpetic neuralgia? > > Hi All, > > I was pondering my elderly patient with post-herpetic neuralgia > today. His pain is along the gallbladder and san jiao channels > around the ear, down the neck, and across the ribs of his right > side. This latter pain, in the ribs, is new, even through his rash > has been " healed " since late summer. His pain is quite severe, > stabbing, burning, and causes him to grab his neck or head or back > when it comes on, and he grimaces terribly. Acupuncture has > lessened the severity of his symptoms, but not enough to keep him > from thoughts of dying. > > His health is complicated by severe COPD and emphysema. His > pulse is rapid, wiry, choppy, and shakes quite alot. Today for the > first time, it was more deficient and weak than excess. His tongue > is enlarged, quite deviated, and deeply reddish-purple; in the past > he exhibited a thick, yellow, dry, cottage-cheesy coat, but today > it was almost a mirror tongue with a small patch of thick dry coat > in the rear. > > In the past 2 weeks he as been on a high dose of a drug called > lyrica, to control the pain, and discontinued his acupuncture > treatments. During this time, his symptoms became more severe, and > he developed the new area of pain along the ribside. I suspect the > changes in his tongue and pulse are also due to the medication, as > I can find no other logical explanation. > > As I was noticing the involvement of the gallbladder and san jiao > channels, I found myself thinking of his case of shingles as a shao > yang type of disease, and so the question came to mind: can xiao > chai hu tang be useful in his case? Has anyone used xiao chai hu > tang for this type of presentation or anything similar? I have not > recommended herbs to date due to the large number of prescription > medicines his doctors have him taking, but if he is saying life > isn't worth living with this pain, I think it may be appropriate to > offer herbal medicine. > > Thank you for your assistance, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 < wrote: Hi All, I was pondering my elderly patient with post-herpetic neuralgia today. His pain is along the gallbladder and san jiao channels around the ear, down the neck, and across the ribs of his right side. This latter pain, in the ribs, is new, even through his rash has been " healed " since late summer. His pain is quite severe, stabbing, burning, and causes him to grab his neck or head or back when it comes on, and he grimaces terribly. Acupuncture has lessened the severity of his symptoms, but not enough to keep him from thoughts of dying. His health is complicated by severe COPD and emphysema. His pulse is rapid, wiry, choppy, and shakes quite alot. Today for the first time, it was more deficient and weak than excess. His tongue is enlarged, quite deviated, and deeply reddish-purple; in the past he exhibited a thick, yellow, dry, cottage-cheesy coat, but today it was almost a mirror tongue with a small patch of thick dry coat in the rear. In the past 2 weeks he as been on a high dose of a drug called lyrica, to control the pain, and discontinued his acupuncture treatments. During this time, his symptoms became more severe, and he developed the new area of pain along the ribside. I suspect the changes in his tongue and pulse are also due to the medication, as I can find no other logical explanation. As I was noticing the involvement of the gallbladder and san jiao channels, I found myself thinking of his case of shingles as a shao yang type of disease, and so the question came to mind: can xiao chai hu tang be useful in his case? Has anyone used xiao chai hu tang for this type of presentation or anything similar? I have not recommended herbs to date due to the large number of prescription medicines his doctors have him taking, but if he is saying life isn't worth living with this pain, I think it may be appropriate to offer herbal medicine. Thank you for your assistance, Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. Andrea, I would think xiao chai hu tang principal + Blood stagnation-Heat, + Def Heat + Phl-Heat In Herbs and Acupuncture. + I would think Cupping Bleeding Locally and for Root i. e. Sp10 Ub 17 Ub40 etc + Ki support (chronic problem) Peter Pavolotsky Tel. (416)453-9004 peter911cm Find your next car at Canada Autos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 am looking for a pattern, which will contain things double quick, else the case will likely slide: > pain is along the gallbladder and san jiao channels around the ear, down the neck, and across the ribs of his right side > :: this part of discussion is the domain of Warmers :: shaoyang doubtlessly > This latter pain, in the ribs, is new, even through his rash has been " healed " since late summer > that's a great sign: shaoyang now involving [probably] Dai > pain severe, stabbing, burning > trademark Shaoyang [Wind carried, Heated, Hot, Burning, Comes and Goes] > .... but not enough to keep him from thoughts of dying > his 'sides' are open, thus the sense of being mortally vulnerable > His health is complicated by severe COPD and emphysema > :: this part of discussion is the domain of Elements :: this is very likely a Fire on Metal Pattern > His pulse is rapid, wiry, choppy, and shakes quite alot > rapid - Blood Qi Deficient, Heated, Yin Dissociated wiry - !! this is from Pain, not the red herring Liver nor Cold choppy - very likely the Meta showing up > Today for the first time, it was more deficient and weak than excess > must have always been so now that Metal rigidity is giving way, true Form becomes patent > His tongue is enlarged, quite deviated, and deeply reddish-purple > enlarged - central axis of tongue [Mother SP has given way] quite deviated!! marvelous sign, the side it deviates away from is the side which has given way < deviates to where? and which side the larger symptoms? > this has Warmer significance: almost certainly the Dai on the weak side is involved deeply reddish-purple - again a Blood Stagnated sign, or at least a Blood sign < if you can demarcate areas of purple on tongue one can get more information > > in the past he exhibited a thick, yellow, dry, cottage-cheesy coat > dry - Metal thick, cottage cheesy - can't figure this out yellow - Heat > today it was almost a mirror tongue with a small patch of thick dry coat in the rear > the small Dry path in rear is likely Son Water invaded by Mother Lung Dry > he developed the new area of pain along the rib side > < can you please check up on the Dai with a visual? > Pattern: A Fire Aggressing on Metal Pattern of long duration now progressed to a Warmer Illness what to do next? can you confirm the Fire on Metal? use tongue, face, sclera capillaries, tender shu and mu can you also confirm Warmer profile on 3 Not Draining? if you can, then the remedy prescription of points can allay the pain in the 1 session to something bearable and be done with it by 5th once pain is gone, one can settle to taking care of the Pattern best dr holmes www.acu-free.com > < wrote: Hi All, > > I was pondering my elderly patient with post-herpetic neuralgia today. His > pain is along the gallbladder and san jiao channels around the ear, down the > neck, and across the ribs of his right side. This latter pain, in the ribs, is > new, even through his rash has been " healed " since late summer. His pain is > quite severe, stabbing, burning, and causes him to grab his neck or head or > back when it comes on, and he grimaces terribly. Acupuncture has lessened the > severity of his symptoms, but not enough to keep him from thoughts of dying. > > His health is complicated by severe COPD and emphysema. His pulse is > rapid, wiry, choppy, and shakes quite alot. Today for the first time, it was > more deficient and weak than excess. His tongue is enlarged, quite deviated, > and deeply reddish-purple; in the past he exhibited a thick, yellow, dry, > cottage-cheesy coat, but today it was almost a mirror tongue with a small patch > of thick dry coat in the rear. > > In the past 2 weeks he as been on a high dose of a drug called lyrica, to > control the pain, and discontinued his acupuncture treatments. During this > time, his symptoms became more severe, and he developed the new area of pain > along the ribside. I suspect the changes in his tongue and pulse are also due > to the medication, as I can find no other logical explanation. > > As I was noticing the involvement of the gallbladder and san jiao channels, > I found myself thinking of his case of shingles as a shao yang type of disease, > and so the question came to mind: can xiao chai hu tang be useful in his case? > Has anyone used xiao chai hu tang for this type of presentation or anything > similar? I have not recommended herbs to date due to the large number of > prescription medicines his doctors have him taking, but if he is saying life > isn't worth living with this pain, I think it may be appropriate to offer > herbal medicine. > > Thank you for your assistance, > > > > > Photos > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, > whatever. > > > > > > Andrea, > > I would think xiao chai hu tang principal > + Blood stagnation-Heat, + Def Heat + Phl-Heat In Herbs and Acupuncture. > + I would think Cupping Bleeding Locally and for Root i. e. Sp10 Ub 17 > Ub40 etc > + Ki support (chronic problem) > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > Tel. (416)453-9004 > peter911cm > > > Find your next car at Canada Autos > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Thank you, Roger. This patient is a frail elderly man, in home hospice, with no one to cook raw herbs for him. Otherwise, I think your suggestions make a great deal of sense. Roger Wicke <rw2 wrote: My first thought would be that the mirror tongue and weakened pulses are indicating Yin damage, whether from progression of the Interior Heat or from medication side effects, or both. In any case, xiao chai hu tang would not seem to be appropriate, as it may likely aggravate the Yin Deficiency even more. How about considering a formula like Artemisia Annua and Soft-shelled Turtle Shell [Qing- Hao\ Bie- Jia~ Tang-] or Clear the Nutritive Level Decoction [Qing- Ying/ Tang-]? (Artemisia Annua will vent heat from the ShaoYang without damaging the Yin.) With perhaps a few cooling blood-movers added like dan shen and chi shao, since there seems to be a relatively severe blood stasis (stabbing pains, purple tongue hue, choppy pulse). Without enough cooling blood movers, an ordinary Yin-tonic+Clear Heat Toxins formula might not work well, because the Blood Stasis prevents the herbs' effects from penetrating the affected tissues. I've used tu fu ling (Rz Smilacis Glabrae) with good results for herpes associated with Heat Toxin signs, which would seem to fit here also. ---Roger Wicke PhD Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute website: www.rmhiherbal.org email: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ On Jan 4, 2006, at 11:25, wrote: > < > xiao chai hu tang for post-herpetic neuralgia? > > Hi All, > > I was pondering my elderly patient with post-herpetic neuralgia > today. His pain is along the gallbladder and san jiao channels > around the ear, down the neck, and across the ribs of his right > side. This latter pain, in the ribs, is new, even through his rash > has been " healed " since late summer. His pain is quite severe, > stabbing, burning, and causes him to grab his neck or head or back > when it comes on, and he grimaces terribly. Acupuncture has > lessened the severity of his symptoms, but not enough to keep him > from thoughts of dying. > > His health is complicated by severe COPD and emphysema. His > pulse is rapid, wiry, choppy, and shakes quite alot. Today for the > first time, it was more deficient and weak than excess. His tongue > is enlarged, quite deviated, and deeply reddish-purple; in the past > he exhibited a thick, yellow, dry, cottage-cheesy coat, but today > it was almost a mirror tongue with a small patch of thick dry coat > in the rear. > > In the past 2 weeks he as been on a high dose of a drug called > lyrica, to control the pain, and discontinued his acupuncture > treatments. During this time, his symptoms became more severe, and > he developed the new area of pain along the ribside. I suspect the > changes in his tongue and pulse are also due to the medication, as > I can find no other logical explanation. > > As I was noticing the involvement of the gallbladder and san jiao > channels, I found myself thinking of his case of shingles as a shao > yang type of disease, and so the question came to mind: can xiao > chai hu tang be useful in his case? Has anyone used xiao chai hu > tang for this type of presentation or anything similar? I have not > recommended herbs to date due to the large number of prescription > medicines his doctors have him taking, but if he is saying life > isn't worth living with this pain, I think it may be appropriate to > offer herbal medicine. > > Thank you for your assistance, > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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