Guest guest Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Hi Gabrielle, I've used the manual capsule equipment and it is time consuming and messy. Your question actually raises a broader question for me. What is the overall compliance for your patients taking Chinese herbs? Who does raw herbs, granulars, powders, extracts etc? Any difference in compliance? When I was in school, the raw herbs had the lowest compliance in general. Americans it seems would rather take a pill than have to taste anything objectionable. One of my professors said that the taste was part of the herbs energetic and by processing them into pills we loose that part. What is the experience of this group regarding the compliance vs.. effectiveness of the different ways of taking herbs? Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of gabriellemathieu Tuesday, January 03, 2006 7:23 AM Chinese Medicine Manual capsule filling equipment I carry mostly single powders to create formulas with, and only a few patents. Some of the patients just won't take the herbs, and when I order preencapsulated for them, that is usually when they cancel the next appointment! Has anyone used manual capsule equipment to fill small prescriptions (60 grams worth)? I was looking at Capsiline's equipment for filling 60 at a time-it didn't look too bad. If you use it, what do you chrge for the service? Many thanks, Gabrielle Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Chris, I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: Hi Gabrielle, I've used the manual capsule equipment and it is time consuming and messy. Your question actually raises a broader question for me. What is the overall compliance for your patients taking Chinese herbs? Who does raw herbs, granulars, powders, extracts etc? Any difference in compliance? When I was in school, the raw herbs had the lowest compliance in general. Americans it seems would rather take a pill than have to taste anything objectionable. One of my professors said that the taste was part of the herbs energetic and by processing them into pills we loose that part. What is the experience of this group regarding the compliance vs.. effectiveness of the different ways of taking herbs? Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of gabriellemathieu Tuesday, January 03, 2006 7:23 AM Chinese Medicine Manual capsule filling equipment I carry mostly single powders to create formulas with, and only a few patents. Some of the patients just won't take the herbs, and when I order preencapsulated for them, that is usually when they cancel the next appointment! Has anyone used manual capsule equipment to fill small prescriptions (60 grams worth)? I was looking at Capsiline's equipment for filling 60 at a time-it didn't look too bad. If you use it, what do you chrge for the service? Many thanks, Gabrielle Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Martha, I know of two companies that sell TCM formulas in liquid extract form. Kan Herbs http://www.kanherb.com/ and Far East Summit http://www.fareastsummit.com/professional/cc.html I use both Golden Flower patent medicine and Kan extracts in my clinic. Patient compliance is generally very high. I like using extracts as I can combine formulas for each patient into a single bottle. My pharmacy is a little limited however, and there are only a few dozen raw herbs available in extract form for customizing. Sometimes I refer patients out because I simply don't have the pharmacy to deal with their condition. Someday I would like to change that. Here in Phoenix there is a herbalist (Greenfingers Herbs) that can make just about any formula (TCM, Ayurvedic or Western) in extract form. <http://www.greenfingersherbs.com/pharmacy.html> http://www.greenfingersherbs.com/pharmacy.html I wouldn't carry a pharmacy at all, and just get someone like Greenfingers to make all my patient formulas, but patients tend to want to get their herbs " here and now " . It seems that a full pharmacy of liquid extracts may be ideal, but extracts are pretty expensive. Many practitioners I know use granulars as they are much cheaper and just as easy to store and customize. A full pharmacy of granulars would certainly be cheaper than extracts. I just wonder about compliance with powders vs. liquids. Also I wonder about how effective granulars are vs. high quality liquid extracts. One of my instructors (an American) used ground raw herbs, which was very inexpensive indeed. He claimed that these raw herbs (taken just like a granular) was just as effective as raw cooked teas. My Chinese instructors disagreed that raw uncooked herbs, essentially eaten dry in powder form, could be as effective as cooked teas. Sorry for rambling. Any thoughts out there? Zev are you out there? Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:06 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Herb compliance Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Kan Herb Company has a full line of herbal extracts, high potency, with both formulas and singles available. I've been using them extensively for 17 years with great compliance and clinical efficacy. On Jan 4, 2006, at 6:06 AM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. wrote: > Hi Andrea, > > Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix > makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - > but > I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill > and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if > more > than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go > to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown > formulas available there. > > Martha > > > On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I >> get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess >> why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are >> intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently >> forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid >> form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw >> herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the >> native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Thank you for the info! On Jan 4, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > Hi Martha, > > I know of two companies that sell TCM formulas in liquid extract > form. > > Kan Herbs http://www.kanherb.com/ > and > Far East Summit http://www.fareastsummit.com/professional/cc.html > > I use both Golden Flower patent medicine and Kan extracts in my > clinic. > Patient compliance is generally very high. > > I like using extracts as I can combine formulas for each patient into > a > single bottle. My pharmacy is a little limited however, and there are > only a few dozen raw herbs available in extract form for customizing. > Sometimes I refer patients out because I simply don't have the > pharmacy > to deal with their condition. Someday I would like to change that. > > Here in Phoenix there is a herbalist (Greenfingers Herbs) that can > make > just about any formula (TCM, Ayurvedic or Western) in extract form. > <http://www.greenfingersherbs.com/pharmacy.html> > http://www.greenfingersherbs.com/pharmacy.html > > I wouldn't carry a pharmacy at all, and just get someone like > Greenfingers to make all my patient formulas, but patients tend to > want > to get their herbs " here and now " . > > It seems that a full pharmacy of liquid extracts may be ideal, but > extracts are pretty expensive. Many practitioners I know use > granulars > as they are much cheaper and just as easy to store and customize. A > full pharmacy of granulars would certainly be cheaper than extracts. > I > just wonder about compliance with powders vs. liquids. Also I wonder > about how effective granulars are vs. high quality liquid extracts. > One > of my instructors (an American) used ground raw herbs, which was very > inexpensive indeed. He claimed that these raw herbs (taken just like > a > granular) was just as effective as raw cooked teas. My Chinese > instructors disagreed that raw uncooked herbs, essentially eaten dry > in > powder form, could be as effective as cooked teas. > > Sorry for rambling. Any thoughts out there? Zev are you out there? > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 It may be more than taste that creates compliance problems. If you are fatigued or not feeling well, making a tea takes more effort than popping a pill in your mouth. Nancy S+13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Martha, I use high quality herbal formula extracts made by Alembic Herbals, Kan, and Giovanni Maciocia. Between these three manufacturers, a fairly wide array of formulas and also modern variations are available. Kan also makes single herb liquid extracts, which I haven't used. I also use liquid mushroom extracts by MycoHerb, and liquid herbal modulars by Chinese Modular Solutions. All are available from Kan, or through Crane. Both Kan and Crane are available online. " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Hi, I have found that granular herbs can cause problems with people who have sensitive gastrointestinal systems. Something like sand going through the system. Just something to be aware of. P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. - Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:31 PM Re: Herb compliance Hi Martha, I use high quality herbal formula extracts made by Alembic Herbals, Kan, and Giovanni Maciocia. Between these three manufacturers, a fairly wide array of formulas and also modern variations are available. Kan also makes single herb liquid extracts, which I haven't used. I also use liquid mushroom extracts by MycoHerb, and liquid herbal modulars by Chinese Modular Solutions. All are available from Kan, or through Crane. Both Kan and Crane are available online. " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. Marnae Ergil --- < wrote: Hi Martha, I use high quality herbal formula extracts made by Alembic Herbals, Kan, and Giovanni Maciocia. Between these three manufacturers, a fairly wide array of formulas and also modern variations are available. Kan also makes single herb liquid extracts, which I haven't used. I also use liquid mushroom extracts by MycoHerb, and liquid herbal modulars by Chinese Modular Solutions. All are available from Kan, or through Crane. Both Kan and Crane are available online. " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. >>>>> Marnae do you have experience comparing them to powders? Oakland, CA 94609 - marnae ergil Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:04 PM Re: Herb compliance I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. Marnae Ergil --- < wrote: Hi Martha, I use high quality herbal formula extracts made by Alembic Herbals, Kan, and Giovanni Maciocia. Between these three manufacturers, a fairly wide array of formulas and also modern variations are available. Kan also makes single herb liquid extracts, which I haven't used. I also use liquid mushroom extracts by MycoHerb, and liquid herbal modulars by Chinese Modular Solutions. All are available from Kan, or through Crane. Both Kan and Crane are available online. " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Yes. The nice thing about China Herb is that you can modify your formula as you would with a powder. They have a large number of pre-made formulas, but they also have individual substances so you can write your own formula if you like. I think that they work as well as the powders. Marnae --- <alonmarcus wrote: I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. >>>>> Marnae do you have experience comparing them to powders? Oakland, CA 94609 - marnae ergil Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:04 PM Re: Herb compliance I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. Marnae Ergil --- < wrote: Hi Martha, I use high quality herbal formula extracts made by Alembic Herbals, Kan, and Giovanni Maciocia. Between these three manufacturers, a fairly wide array of formulas and also modern variations are available. Kan also makes single herb liquid extracts, which I haven't used. I also use liquid mushroom extracts by MycoHerb, and liquid herbal modulars by Chinese Modular Solutions. All are available from Kan, or through Crane. Both Kan and Crane are available online. " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 thanks Oakland, CA 94609 - marnae ergil Chinese Medicine Friday, January 06, 2006 6:35 AM Re: Herb compliance Yes. The nice thing about China Herb is that you can modify your formula as you would with a powder. They have a large number of pre-made formulas, but they also have individual substances so you can write your own formula if you like. I think that they work as well as the powders. Marnae --- <alonmarcus wrote: I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. >>>>> Marnae do you have experience comparing them to powders? Oakland, CA 94609 - marnae ergil Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:04 PM Re: Herb compliance I also purchase a lot of extracts from China Herb Co. Their formulas have a relatively low alcohol content and actually taste like herbs, not alcohol. Also, I know that they use good quality herbs. I have had excellent compliance with them - I also use them a lot for children because the alcohol content is low. They can be ordered online. Marnae Ergil --- < wrote: Hi Martha, I use high quality herbal formula extracts made by Alembic Herbals, Kan, and Giovanni Maciocia. Between these three manufacturers, a fairly wide array of formulas and also modern variations are available. Kan also makes single herb liquid extracts, which I haven't used. I also use liquid mushroom extracts by MycoHerb, and liquid herbal modulars by Chinese Modular Solutions. All are available from Kan, or through Crane. Both Kan and Crane are available online. " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: Hi Andrea, Where do you buy your liquid extracts? A company called Energetix makes 12 formulas in liquid form - which I also love to prescribe - but I'm interested to hear who else makes them. I also find that the pill and liquid forms are the best compliance. I'd use more liquids if more than the 12 formulas from Energetix are available. I know one can go to Asian supply stores and buy liquid ginseng but have seen full blown formulas available there. Martha On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I've used tablets and liquid extracts with my patients. By far, I > get better compliance with the liquid extracts, but I can only guess > why. Pills are already familiar, but the liquid extracts are > intriguing, if only because they are unfamiliar. Clients frequently > forget to take their tablets, but rarely forget their herbs in liquid > form, no matter how " bad " they may taste. I personally prefer raw > herbs for efficacy, but I live in the boonies and don't expect the > native ranchers to take time out to cook herbs, much less drink them. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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