Guest guest Posted December 29, 2005 Report Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hi All, I'd like to ask if some people on this list use point injections as a therapeutic modality. If so, where do you buy your ampules? Technically, only doctors and nurses are allowed to give injections in Belgium. But acupuncturists are in a grey zone actually, legally speaking. So it might just be possible. What do you think about this? Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2005 Report Share Posted December 29, 2005 Hi, Tom I use point injections (subcutaneously) with HEEL antihomotoxic preparations, mostly for painful conditions. " Discus compositum " for spinal problems, " Zeel " for pain in the joints, " Neuralgo-Rheum Injeel " for neuralgias, " Traumeel " for inflammation. Result is good, it is even better using laser irradiation on ashi points. This treatment method is time consuming, but worth trying, especially effective for knee joint problems (injection and laser irradiation points ST34, ST35, ST36, GB34, SP9, SP10, ashi). I buy the ampules in the pharmacy, here in Lithuania we need a special prescribtion for this kind of medicine (for ampular forms, because they are not registered). There is one short article about biopuncture in the summer issue of " The Journal of Biomedical Thearpy " : http://www.heelusa.com/resources/btjournal/Summer05.pdf Rasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 Thank you for your experiences, Rasa. I had never heard of these products. There used to be a doctor in my area who would only do point injections. Patients would travelled long distances to see him, and didn't mind waiting for several hours before he could see them. The man has passed away now, and it seems nobody learned his method. In China, point injections are used frequently, using Chinese herb extracts. It seems to be out of the scope of practice for many Westerners, or perhaps it is due to the unavailability of the ampules? Tom. ---- Rasa Zurbaite 12/30/05 00:55:24 Chinese Medicine Re: point injections Hi, Tom I use point injections (subcutaneously) with HEEL antihomotoxic preparations, mostly for painful conditions. " Discus compositum " for spinal problems, " Zeel " for pain in the joints, " Neuralgo-Rheum Injeel " for neuralgias, " Traumeel " for inflammation. Result is good, it is even better using laser irradiation on ashi points. This treatment method is time consuming, but worth trying, especially effective for knee joint problems (injection and laser irradiation points ST34, ST35, ST36, GB34, SP9, SP10, ashi). I buy the ampules in the pharmacy, here in Lithuania we need a special prescribtion for this kind of medicine (for ampular forms, because they are not registered). There is one short article about biopuncture in the summer issue of " The Journal of Biomedical Thearpy " : http://www.heelusa.com/resources/btjournal/Summer05.pdf Rasa Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 http://groups. com and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 Wouldn't there be legal issues with point injections?! In Denmark it will definitely be against the law for anyone, but MDs and nurses or someone supervised by an MD, to perform this procedure. How about the States? How well established is this procedure in China anyways? Is there any data on safety?! One thing is ingesting herbs, but how about reactions to the herbs going under skin. What would the Wei Qi reactions be and does the formulas have the same (intended) effect as when ingsting them.... I would be very interested to hear more.... Happy New Year! Thomas Sorensen L.Ac. Denmark Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > >Thank you for your experiences, Rasa. I had never heard of these products. >There used to be a doctor in my area who would only do point injections. >Patients would travelled long distances to see him, and didn't mind waiting >for several hours before he could see them. The man has passed away now, and >it seems nobody learned his method. > >In China, point injections are used frequently, using Chinese herb extracts. >It seems to be out of the scope of practice for many Westerners, or perhaps >it is due to the unavailability of the ampules? > >Tom. > >---- > >Rasa Zurbaite >12/30/05 00:55:24 >Chinese Medicine >Re: point injections > >Hi, Tom > >I use point injections (subcutaneously) with HEEL antihomotoxic >preparations, mostly for painful conditions. " Discus compositum " for >spinal problems, " Zeel " for pain in the joints, " Neuralgo-Rheum >Injeel " for neuralgias, " Traumeel " for inflammation. Result is good, >it is even better using laser irradiation on ashi points. This >treatment method is time consuming, but worth trying, especially >effective for knee joint problems (injection and laser irradiation >points ST34, ST35, ST36, GB34, SP9, SP10, ashi). >I buy the ampules in the pharmacy, here in Lithuania we need a special >prescribtion for this kind of medicine (for ampular forms, because >they are not registered). > >There is one short article about biopuncture in the summer issue of > " The Journal of Biomedical Thearpy " : >http://www.heelusa.com/resources/btjournal/Summer05.pdf > >Rasa > > > > > >Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar >thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http://groups. >com and adjust accordingly. > >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group >requires prior permission from the author. > >Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely >necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 ---- Thomas Bxgedal Sxrensen 12/30/05 23:54:03 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: point injections How well established is this procedure in China anyways? Is there any data on safety?! One thing is ingesting herbs, but how about reactions to the herbs going under skin. What would the Wei Qi reactions be and does the formulas have the same (intended) effect as when ingsting them.... I would be very interested to hear more.... (Tom) Good questions, Thomas. I did a search on wanfangdata and found 1908 studies since 1998 dealing with the subject " ???? " (xue2wei4zhu4she4, acupuncture point injections). To give you an idea of the conditions treated: leukopenia, post-herpetic neualgia, rheumatoid arthritis, all kinds of pain conditions, iliolumbar ligament injuries, hoarseness, cerebral infarct, allergic rhinitis, in dermatological conditions,... I believe Dan Shen extracts are the most frequently injected. Western medicines are used for certain conditions. I could find no immediate data on safety regarding to acupoint injections. Happy New Year to all, Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Legal for licensed acupuncturists in Florida, New Mexico, Arkansas, West Virginia, Colorado. Richard Ten years ago when I was in Shanghai there was a lot of injections being done along TCM lines. Huang Qi in Stomach 36, Dan Shen in Spleen 10 etc... But 2 years ago in Beijing when I asked someone about it, the doctor said that injections were sort of " out of fashion " . So hardly a scientific poll but there you have it. And by the way, in the USA injections by a licensed acupuncturist is illegal in most states. Florida is one exception that I have heard about. doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Ten years ago when I was in Shanghai there was a lot of injections being done along TCM lines. Huang Qi in Stomach 36, Dan Shen in Spleen 10 etc... But 2 years ago in Beijing when I asked someone about it, the doctor said that injections were sort of " out of fashion " . So hardly a scientific poll but there you have it. And by the way, in the USA injections by a licensed acupuncturist is illegal in most states. Florida is one exception that I have heard about. doug Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <> Re: Re: point injections Wouldn't there be legal issues with point injections?! In Denmark it will definitely be against the law for anyone, but MDs and nurses or someone supervised by an MD, to perform this procedure. How about the States? How well established is this procedure in China anyways? Is there any data on safety?! One thing is ingesting herbs, but how about reactions to the herbs going under skin. What would the Wei Qi reactions be and does the formulas have the same (intended) effect as when ingsting them.... I would be very interested to hear more.... Happy New Year! Thomas Sorensen L.Ac. Denmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 It depends. In CA, for instance, because it is an overlegislated state (there is a law for everything, and some imaginary things, too), Physicians can delegate, but only to relatives or whatever, and not for theraputic reasons, like point injection. However, in more rational states (my humble opinion), or in states where the physician is god, the physician can delegate most anything if s/he is convinced of the qualifications of the delegatee and of the medical utility for the patient. It is not that difficult to develop a relationship of trust with a physician, especially in patients whom everyone else has given up on and what is being done is obviously makeing the patient better, plus traumeel or B-12, for instance, is in the PDR, which provides a lot of relief. Then the doc thinks either, " If injecting a little water helps, thats cool. " or " I've seen traumeel do some neat stuff and in fact use traumeel on this patient, but I can't see them 3 times a week for this series, so why not delegate? " . That is what delegation is for, overworked physicians. We may find that many states have similar processes for delegation, and if we do it responsibly and develop a credible education for it, it may develop into a intrinsic part of our scope in most states. DAVE In a message dated 1/2/06 9:51:29 PM, naturaldoc1 writes: > David, > > Are you saying that it is legal in other states for L Ac to perform this > procedure? I would find it interesting to find an MD/DO who would refer > this to us. Even with the referal I would not think that it is w/i our > scope of practice in other states. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > David Molony 101 Bridge Street Catasauqua, PA 18032 Phone (610)264-2755 Fax (610) 264-7292 **********Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Acupuncturists as primary care healthcare practitioners are quite capable of administering point injections without the need for a relationship with an MD to refer. Do you have any statistics in the states where APs are primary care as to how many referrals those APs receive from MDs? It is understandable that in states where MDs are god and APs are under the thumb of those allopaths where they might be able to develop that rare referral. Richard It depends. In CA, for instance, because it is an overlegislated state (there is a law for everything, and some imaginary things, too), Physicians can delegate, but only to relatives or whatever, and not for theraputic reasons, like point injection. However, in more rational states (my humble opinion), or in states where the physician is god, the physician can delegate most anything if s/he is convinced of the qualifications of the delegatee and of the medical utility for the patient. It is not that difficult to develop a relationship of trust with a physician, especially in patients whom everyone else has given up on and what is being done is obviously makeing the patient better, plus traumeel or B-12, for instance, is in the PDR, which provides a lot of relief. Then the doc thinks either, " If injecting a little water helps, thats cool. " or " I've seen traumeel do some neat stuff and in fact use traumeel on this patient, but I can't see them 3 times a week for this series, so why not delegate? " . That is what delegation is for, overworked physicians. We may find that many states have similar processes for delegation, and if we do it responsibly and develop a credible education for it, it may develop into a intrinsic part of our scope in most states. DAVE In a message dated 1/2/06 9:51:29 PM, naturaldoc1 writes: > David, > > Are you saying that it is legal in other states for L Ac to perform this > procedure? I would find it interesting to find an MD/DO who would refer > this to us. Even with the referal I would not think that it is w/i our > scope of practice in other states. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 A referral is one thing, scope of practice is quite another. You would need to look at the state's legal wording of what is in the acu license and even then a legal opinion from the state's attorney general might be needed. Point injections would not fly in most states where our language limits us mainly to ancient techniques. Most states will not allow us to use more modern instruments such as laser. We should consider that this is important for us to change these laws. The laws or their interpretations tend to not allow for us to benefit from more recent advances in care and that is unacceptable and ridiculous. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >acudoc11 >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: point injections >Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:51:40 EST > > >Acupuncturists as primary care healthcare practitioners are quite capable >of >administering point injections without the need for a relationship with an >MD > to refer. > >Do you have any statistics in the states where APs are primary care as to >how many referrals those APs receive from MDs? > >It is understandable that in states where MDs are god and APs are under the >thumb of those >allopaths where they might be able to develop that rare referral. > >Richard > > >It depends. In CA, for instance, because it is an overlegislated state >(there >is a law for everything, and some imaginary things, too), Physicians can >delegate, but only to relatives or whatever, and not for theraputic >reasons, >like >point injection. >However, in more rational states (my humble opinion), or in states where >the >physician is god, the physician can delegate most anything if s/he is >convinced of the qualifications of the delegatee and of the medical >utility >for the >patient. >It is not that difficult to develop a relationship of trust with a >physician, >especially in patients whom everyone else has given up on and what is >being >done is obviously makeing the patient better, plus traumeel or B-12, for >instance, is in the PDR, which provides a lot of relief. Then the doc >thinks >either, " If injecting a little water helps, thats cool. " or " I've seen >traumeel do >some neat stuff and in fact use traumeel on this patient, but I can't see >them 3 >times a week for this series, so why not delegate? " . That is what >delegation >is for, overworked physicians. > >We may find that many states have similar processes for delegation, and if >we >do it responsibly and develop a credible education for it, it may develop >into a intrinsic part of our scope in most states. >DAVE > >In a message dated 1/2/06 9:51:29 PM, naturaldoc1 writes: > > > > David, > > > > Are you saying that it is legal in other states for L Ac to perform >this > > procedure? I would find it interesting to find an MD/DO who would >refer > > this to us. Even with the referal I would not think that it is w/i our > > scope of practice in other states. > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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