Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Has anyone on this forum treated polycystic kidney disease? thanks for any information, Molly Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Personals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Molly I have treated this condition with acupuncture. What specific things did you want to know? Shane Molly Beverage <mbevera wrote: Has anyone on this forum treated polycystic kidney disease? thanks for any information, Molly Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Personals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 to my mind this is a SP agressing on Water pattern the giving way of the kidney parenchyma is typical of SP the site element is Water the cyst is SP the fluid within is likely viscid which would invoke Water & SP Damp here are more extrapolations: if there are few cysts the condition is acute and recent if there are many cysts the condition is chronic and long drawn out if there are cysts deep within parenchyma the condition is largely Water if these are superficially placed the condition is largely SP if there is acute pain this is an Excess condition if there is chronic pain this is a Deficient condition if there is blood stained fluid within the cysts Water has involved Fire if there is frank blood within the cysts Fire has overcome Water if only the L Kidney is involved this is largely a SP - Water situation if only the R Kidney is involved this is largely a 3 Warmer condition if both Kidneys are involved this is SP - Water condition which has progressed to a Water Fire Axis involvement if both UB 60 locations show a hollow this is a true SP - K situation where only the UB is in Excess if both K 3 locations show a hollow as also the UB 60, this is a true SP - K situation where the K is also involved and shows a Deficiency on the diurnal horary clock the lean times will be 9 to 11 AM and 5 to 7 PM if some SP Earth problems presented at birth [placenta privea, problems with afterbirth, breech presentation, baby turned several times, long labor, lack of contractions, the condition was likely inherited, with a maternal Heart Deficient pattern if a clear SP - Water pattern is found a simple needling of the meridians would settle the condition points used would be: Water point on Earth Yin vessel - SP 9 Earth point of Water Yin vessel - K 3 classically SP 9 would feel gummy and lumpy classically K 3 would feel hollowed and Cold oddly enough if you wanted to find a diagnostic reflex you would probably find it on LI vessel if R iliac fossa is tender, sensitive, Cold, Heated, palpate LI 8 to 11 for an acutely tender spot and massage. if this releases the fossa one is dealing with a pathology which could be K cysts if L fossa is reactive the L colon vessel should be used this reflex is diagnostic, therapeutic as well as prognostic huf puf should do for now like shane asked, let's have more details Dr. Holmes Keikobad Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery Diplomate in Public Health & Hygiene Diplomate in Acupuncture NCCAOM Licensed Acupuncturist AZ & CO Clinician Community Acupuncture Clinic Clinical Director Acupuncture CEUS on DVD CD www.acu-free.com. Toll Free 1.888.TRU.SELF <878.7353> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Hi Shane, The young woman is the 23 yo daughter of a current patient, no family hx of PKD that is known. I treated her a couple of years ago for detox from cocaine. In the past couple of months she has been having hypochondriac and stomach pain after meals, and with physical activity, and the imaging that they did showed a group of cysts on her R kidney the size of a pack of cards. Western med has said they have nothing to offer her until the dz progresses. (and then only dialysis and/or transplant) As I haven't seen her in a couple of years, I don't know her current pulses and tongue condition, but when she was seeing me before, I dx Sp/Kid Qi xu with Liver Qi stagnation. Did you use herbs in addition to the acupuncture? Was the acupuncture successful in reducing the cysts? thanks, Molly Message: 7 Tue, 6 Dec 2005 04:28:43 -0800 (PST) Shane Haggard Re: Polycystic Kidney Disease Molly I have treated this condition with acupuncture. What specific things did you want to know? Shane Molly Beverage wrote: Has anyone on this forum treated polycystic kidney disease? thanks for any information, Molly Personals Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Personals for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Molly Not sure about the reduction of the cysts but this is how she progressed. When I first started working with her these were the symptoms: lethargic, no energy, pain in the low back, knee issues, lower GI issues, no saliva, very depressed, agitated with little inability to stay very focused, tremors. Red hot tongue with deep fissure down the middle, pulses deep ranging at times from weak to raging all positions rarely did she have a KD pulse and SP was soggy and damp. When we first started to treat the condition she was only able to have the needles in for 5-10 minutes with me checking every couple of minutes. She would go down hill very quickly. In addition I used very few needles and only selected big points with a focus on building the energy. My partner saw her first and blasted her with DU 15 and 16 and mingmen this wiped her out for about a week. She was weak with horrible tremors. At that point I was asked to see her as my style is less aggressive. So here is how I proceeded: 1-2 months rooted her with KD points She was very damp so I supplemented with SP points She noticed an increase when voiding and a strong odor With the less aggressive treatment she did better and was able to hold the treatment for several days. Once stronger we continued to focus on KD and SP and added some ST and CV points to keep the energy down bearing within a month she noticed decreased pain the lumbar region and her energy began to increased. At this time I added Tia Yang Yin Tang and GV 20 with Sishenchong she noticed a clearing of the mind and the depression began to decrease. There however appeared to continue to be a struggle between the front and back of her body they rarely seemed to work in unison so I added GV 26 and CV 24 (my favorite treatment for ADD and ADHD to settle the mind but worked well to have both front and back talk together in her case) this did in fact settle her mind and a continued decrease in the depression. She rarely left the house because she had a great fear of losing her energy. So we talked alot about it and she began this summer to venture out for short trips and spent more time outdoors (she lives on a farm). This worked well for her. In addition I began to treat GV 16 and Mingmen. After seeing her for about 9-10 months she now can go for a month and have the treatments hold. When I see her we usually focus on increased saliva production (ST 5 and 6 seem to work with her) lower GI balancing (ST 36 and 40 CV 3,4,12 and 17) KD balance (KD3 and 7) with a SP damp focus (SP 3,5 and 9) I also use LV points to move blood with her (usually LV 2 and 3) when she presents with excessive heat we pull it (LI 11, ST 44). Occasionally on really cold or damp days I will use moxa on leg points which works well for her. She can now receive a full 20 minute treatment without weakness and nausea. I see her monthly for a tune up. Sometimes more often during the change of seasons. Hope this helps. I did not use any herbs really to speak of. Occasionally a formula for KD support but that was about it. The client is a 42 year old, female. She does not use any western medications but has a western doctor. Let me know if you have additional questions. Shane Molly Beverage <mbevera wrote: Hi Shane, The young woman is the 23 yo daughter of a current patient, no family hx of PKD that is known. I treated her a couple of years ago for detox from cocaine. In the past couple of months she has been having hypochondriac and stomach pain after meals, and with physical activity, and the imaging that they did showed a group of cysts on her R kidney the size of a pack of cards. Western med has said they have nothing to offer her until the dz progresses. (and then only dialysis and/or transplant) As I haven't seen her in a couple of years, I don't know her current pulses and tongue condition, but when she was seeing me before, I dx Sp/Kid Qi xu with Liver Qi stagnation. Did you use herbs in addition to the acupuncture? Was the acupuncture successful in reducing the cysts? thanks, Molly Message: 7 Tue, 6 Dec 2005 04:28:43 -0800 (PST) Shane Haggard Re: Polycystic Kidney Disease Molly I have treated this condition with acupuncture. What specific things did you want to know? Shane Molly Beverage wrote: Has anyone on this forum treated polycystic kidney disease? thanks for any information, Molly Personals Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Personals for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Hi all... I think there isn´t the pattern earth affecting the water....because water is the main source and can not be in excess, only physiological excess.....with is always good. What I beleave is that Deficiency of spleen yang lead to a excess of damp, that can not be transformed by spleen and this excess of damp affect water or " control " , goes to water element, for the kidney and bladder work with that. In the beggining there are some clinical signs (of Earth controlling water - over water) until the water element can deal with the damp or flunk with all the overwater.....patogenic water....But it is not an excess of Earth affecting water, but a deficiency element that pass a way his dutyies for the other element.... Hugs Jean Joaquim, DMV, MS Brazil www.fmvz.unesp.br - holmes Chinese Medicine Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:55 AM Re: Polycystic Kidney Disease to my mind this is a SP agressing on Water pattern the giving way of the kidney parenchyma is typical of SP the site element is Water the cyst is SP the fluid within is likely viscid which would invoke Water & SP Damp here are more extrapolations: if there are few cysts the condition is acute and recent if there are many cysts the condition is chronic and long drawn out if there are cysts deep within parenchyma the condition is largely Water if these are superficially placed the condition is largely SP if there is acute pain this is an Excess condition if there is chronic pain this is a Deficient condition if there is blood stained fluid within the cysts Water has involved Fire if there is frank blood within the cysts Fire has overcome Water if only the L Kidney is involved this is largely a SP - Water situation if only the R Kidney is involved this is largely a 3 Warmer condition if both Kidneys are involved this is SP - Water condition which has progressed to a Water Fire Axis involvement if both UB 60 locations show a hollow this is a true SP - K situation where only the UB is in Excess if both K 3 locations show a hollow as also the UB 60, this is a true SP - K situation where the K is also involved and shows a Deficiency on the diurnal horary clock the lean times will be 9 to 11 AM and 5 to 7 PM if some SP Earth problems presented at birth [placenta privea, problems with afterbirth, breech presentation, baby turned several times, long labor, lack of contractions, the condition was likely inherited, with a maternal Heart Deficient pattern if a clear SP - Water pattern is found a simple needling of the meridians would settle the condition points used would be: Water point on Earth Yin vessel - SP 9 Earth point of Water Yin vessel - K 3 classically SP 9 would feel gummy and lumpy classically K 3 would feel hollowed and Cold oddly enough if you wanted to find a diagnostic reflex you would probably find it on LI vessel if R iliac fossa is tender, sensitive, Cold, Heated, palpate LI 8 to 11 for an acutely tender spot and massage. if this releases the fossa one is dealing with a pathology which could be K cysts if L fossa is reactive the L colon vessel should be used this reflex is diagnostic, therapeutic as well as prognostic huf puf should do for now like shane asked, let's have more details Dr. Holmes Keikobad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2005 Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 thanks for your interesting input jean how would you propose to treat this condition? Dr. Holmes Keikobad Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery Diplomate in Public Health & Hygiene Diplomate in Acupuncture NCCAOM Licensed Acupuncturist AZ & CO Clinician Community Acupuncture Clinic Clinical Director Acupuncture CEUS on DVD CD www.acu-free.com. Toll Free 1.888.TRU.SELF <878.7353> Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim wrote: > Hi all... > I think there isn´t the pattern earth affecting the water....because water is > the main source and can not be in excess, only physiological excess.....with is > always good. What I beleave is that Deficiency of spleen yang lead to a excess > of damp, that can not be transformed by spleen and this excess of damp affect > water or " control " , goes to water element, for the kidney and bladder work with > that. In the beggining there are some clinical signs (of Earth controlling water > - over water) until the water element can deal with the damp or flunk with all > the overwater.....patogenic water....But it is not an excess of Earth affecting > water, but a deficiency element that pass a way his dutyies for the other > element.... > Hugs > Jean Joaquim, DMV, MS > Brazil > www.fmvz.unesp.br > > - > holmes > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, December 07, 2005 5:55 AM > Re: Polycystic Kidney Disease > > > to my mind this is a SP agressing on Water pattern > > the giving way of the kidney parenchyma is typical of SP > > the site element is Water > the cyst is SP > the fluid within is likely viscid which would invoke Water & SP Damp > > here are more extrapolations: > if there are few cysts the condition is acute and recent > > if there are many cysts the condition is chronic and long drawn out > > if there are cysts deep within parenchyma the condition is largely Water > > if these are superficially placed the condition is largely SP > > if there is acute pain this is an Excess condition > > if there is chronic pain this is a Deficient condition > > if there is blood stained fluid within the cysts Water has involved Fire > > if there is frank blood within the cysts Fire has overcome Water > > if only the L Kidney is involved this is largely a SP - Water situation > > if only the R Kidney is involved this is largely a 3 Warmer condition > > if both Kidneys are involved this is SP - Water condition which has > progressed to a Water Fire Axis involvement > > if both UB 60 locations show a hollow this is a true SP - K situation > where only the UB is in Excess > > if both K 3 locations show a hollow as also the UB 60, this is a true SP > - K situation where the K is also involved and shows a Deficiency > > on the diurnal horary clock the lean times will be 9 to 11 AM and 5 to 7 PM > > if some SP Earth problems presented at birth [placenta privea, problems > with afterbirth, breech presentation, baby turned several times, long > labor, lack of contractions, the condition was likely inherited, with a > maternal Heart Deficient pattern > > if a clear SP - Water pattern is found a simple needling of the > meridians would settle the condition > > points used would be: > > Water point on Earth Yin vessel - SP 9 > Earth point of Water Yin vessel - K 3 > > classically SP 9 would feel gummy and lumpy > classically K 3 would feel hollowed and Cold > > oddly enough if you wanted to find a diagnostic reflex you would > probably find it on LI vessel > > if R iliac fossa is tender, sensitive, Cold, Heated, palpate LI 8 to 11 > for an acutely tender spot and massage. if this releases the fossa one > is dealing with a pathology which could be K cysts > > if L fossa is reactive the L colon vessel should be used > > this reflex is diagnostic, therapeutic as well as prognostic > > huf puf should do for now > > like shane asked, let's have more details > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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