Guest guest Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Hi, Has anyone worked with this?? 36 y.o. woman, 6 mos pg, first pregnancy, (though was pg for 1 wk when she was 20...miscarriage) on and off the pill since. Didn't know she had fibroids until last week. Became VERY painful after a flight from NYC to SF One fibroid on left side almost inguinal area) is outside uterus per ultrasound, feels better with pressure, other one on the right side almost same location very visible and VERY painful WORSE with pressure, said she didn't see this one on Monday, just 5 days ago, I think baby is vertex. Tongue is red/purple, short, narrow and small, white foamy coat on top, pulse wiry, deficient, slightly slippery. Any ideas or experiences would be great to know about...books seem to say don't treat pg women with fibroids.??? Thanks Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Linda Gruber wrote: > 36 y.o. woman, 6 mos pg, first pregnancy, (though was pg for 1 wk when she was 20...miscarriage > can't hold fetus in place - SP column falling? odd for that to happen at 20 > Didn't know she had fibroids until last week > again SP - fibroid being essentially a structure grown out of its own parameters by a lax qi > Became VERY painful after a flight from NYC to SF > this could be because of venous engorgement in legs from long sitting, which obstructs venous return to inferior vena cava which in turn creates either an expansile tendency in the growth or simply mechanically pressures these > One fibroid on left side almost inguinal area) is outside uterus per ultrasound, feels better with pressure > the venous return on left side does not drain directly in to the portal or venous circulation hence less pressure > other one on the right side almost same location very visible and VERY painful WORSE with pressure, said she didn't see this one on Monday, just 5 days ago > the venous return on right side favors the portal circuit which resides in the liver which is on the right epigastrium, which could account for the more acute pain worse on pressure > I think baby is vertex > which is something of a surprise if this is a SP problem might give a word of caution the fetus might decide to change position of a sudden [sP column falling and prior miscarriage] > Tongue is red/purple > if whole tongue purple this is either SP which has much to do with destruction of red cells and getting rid of pigment or it could be the purple of LV Stagnation, which is a possibility if one thinks of a KO bonded element which aggresses against SP or there might be Cold within, [but this flies against the red of the tongue] or there is severe pain, which does not seem to be the case > short, narrow and small > does support SP which rules placement of Blood and zang organ substantiality narrow can also be because of scarce Blood, or Blood which tends to sink in venous circulation > white foamy coat on top > a fine sign foamy is water + air = K + LU, both as secondary and tertian elements involved > pulse wiry > bravissiomo! LV large as life also wiry could be because of pain or Cold, needs to be weeded out > deficient > read this as Blood lack because of Stagnation, of course because of LV oppressing SP > slightly slippery. > this is an Earth sign *pattern* looks like a LV offending SP situation needs to be confirmed or tossed out care to check out LV signs? SP seems sure enough Dr. Holmes Keikobad Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery Diplomate in Public Health & Hygiene Diplomate in Acupuncture NCCAOM Licensed Acupuncturist AZ & CO Clinician Community Acupuncture Clinic Clinical Director Acupuncture CEUS on DVD CD www.acu-free.com. Toll Free 1.888.TRU.SELF <878.7353> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 Linda Gruber wrote: > Thanks Holmes for your accurate and immediate response. In light of current > pregnancy, how would you suggest working with this in terms of actual > acupuncture or herbs? > > tongue is more red/purple...as I can see blood stasis...thanks for checking. > > best regards and thanks, > linda > you are welcome purple supports LV as does wiry pulse history goal will be to shift the wiry pulse to a normal L guan pulse with the most minimum intervention if wiry pulse resolves so will the pain work only with your hands, no needles to be used because the tendency with her is to 'drop' things, the SP column has given way step 1. look for a tender LV 14 R or even a LV 13 inferior to it step 2. hold gently under left thumb, you are standing at her R side step 3. holding LV 14 gently massage LV 4 R step 4. if tenderness at R LV 14 mitigates, continue step 5. if needed work with LV 4 L make certain you work only till the tenderness at LV 14 has released now check the pule and you may find the wiry gone at this time the purple splotch mat also shift and *so also the pain* in the iliac fossae make your goal the unwinding of the wiry pulse, rather the mitigation of pain if wiry is gone, pain is gone absolutely no needles with her, she will v likely do a premature by the way there may be significant sun lingual engorgement, this is a fine SP sign, this too will resolve make sure you discuss things with her at length and someone else is present if you have a disclaimer type form around have her sign it in good faith if she were not pregnant you would have used mother son points open at the time and relieved pain the first sitting, gone by 3rd please continue to input best wishes Dr. Holmes Keikobad Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery Diplomate in Public Health & Hygiene Diplomate in Acupuncture NCCAOM Licensed Acupuncturist AZ & CO Clinician Community Acupuncture Clinic Clinical Director Acupuncture CEUS on DVD CD www.acu-free.com. Toll Free 1.888.TRU.SELF <878.7353> > - > holmes<dkaikobad > To: > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:10 PM > Re: Fibroids during pregnancy > > > Linda Gruber wrote: > > > 36 y.o. woman, 6 mos pg, first pregnancy, (though was pg for 1 wk when > she was > 20...miscarriage > > > can't hold fetus in place - SP column falling? > odd for that to happen at 20 > > > > Didn't know she had fibroids until last week > > > again SP - fibroid being essentially a structure grown out of its own > parameters by a lax qi > > > > Became VERY painful after a flight from NYC to SF > > > this could be because of venous engorgement in legs from long sitting, > which obstructs venous return to inferior vena cava which in turn > creates either an expansile tendency in the growth or simply > mechanically pressures these > > > > One fibroid on left side almost inguinal area) is outside uterus per > ultrasound, > feels better with pressure > > > the venous return on left side does not drain directly in to the portal > or venous circulation hence less pressure > > > > other one on the right side almost same location > very visible and VERY painful WORSE with pressure, said she didn't see > this one > on Monday, just 5 days ago > > > the venous return on right side favors the portal circuit which resides > in the liver which is on the right epigastrium, which could account for > the more acute pain worse on pressure > > > > I think baby is vertex > > > which is something of a surprise if this is a SP problem > might give a word of caution the fetus might decide to change position > of a sudden [sP column falling and prior miscarriage] > > > > Tongue is red/purple > > > if whole tongue purple this is either SP which has much to do with > destruction of red cells and getting rid of pigment > > or it could be the purple of LV Stagnation, which is a possibility if > one thinks of a KO bonded element which aggresses against SP > > or there might be Cold within, [but this flies against the red of the > tongue] > > or there is severe pain, which does not seem to be the case > > > > short, narrow and small > > > does support SP which rules placement of Blood and zang organ substantiality > > narrow can also be because of scarce Blood, or Blood which tends to sink > in venous circulation > > > > white foamy coat on top > > > a fine sign > foamy is water + air = K + LU, both as secondary and tertian elements > involved > > > > pulse wiry > > > bravissiomo! LV large as life > > also wiry could be because of pain or Cold, needs to be weeded out > > > > deficient > > > read this as Blood lack because of Stagnation, of course because of LV > oppressing SP > > > > slightly slippery. > > > this is an Earth sign > > *pattern* > looks like a LV offending SP situation > > needs to be confirmed or tossed out > > care to check out LV signs? > SP seems sure enough > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery > Diplomate in Public Health & Hygiene > Diplomate in Acupuncture NCCAOM > Licensed Acupuncturist AZ & CO > Clinician Community Acupuncture Clinic > Clinical Director Acupuncture CEUS on DVD CD > www.acu-free.com. Toll Free 1.888.TRU.SELF <878.7353> > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Chinese Medicine , holmes <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > > Linda Gruber wrote: > > Thanks Holmes for your accurate and immediate response. In light of current > > pregnancy, how would you suggest working with this in terms of actual > > acupuncture or herbs? > > > > tongue is more red/purple...as I can see blood stasis...thanks for checking. > > > > best regards and thanks, > > linda If you are interested in trying Chinese medicine, the formula gui zhi fu ling wan (Cinnamon Twig and Poria Pill) is a very commonly-used formula to treat blood stasis during pregnancy. It is also the most commonly-used formula or base formula for treating uterine fibroids, which tend to be classified in TCM under the traditional disease heading of " concretions and conglomerations " (zheng jia). Uterine fibroids often present with profuse bleeding, so they may also be treated by using the TCM diseases of profuse menstruation or flooding and spotting. Within the various TCM diseases that fibroids correspond to, there are a number of patterns. The pattern should be properly identified and the corresponding treatment should be used as a base. Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan is generally indicated for patterns of congealing cold-damp or blood stasis, although the harsher formula Da Huang Zhe Chong Wan is selected for severe cases of blood stasis. Of course, you should be cautious when treating pregnant patients, and do not take any risks by using harsh blood-quickening medicinals or other contraindicated agents. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Hi Eric, Thank you also for your response. It has also been suggested to me to use Dang Gui Shao Yao Tang...also another good idea. After treating with acupuncture and suggesting some supplements the pain of the fibroids has gone, and the client is traveling...so I am not going to give herbs at this time as I am unable to monitor her. Thanks again. Best regards, Linda - Eric Brand<smilinglotus To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:57 PM Re: Fibroids during pregnancy --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @>, holmes <dkaikobad@c<dkaikobad@c>...> wrote: > > Linda Gruber wrote: > > Thanks Holmes for your accurate and immediate response. In light of current > > pregnancy, how would you suggest working with this in terms of actual > > acupuncture or herbs? > > > > tongue is more red/purple...as I can see blood stasis...thanks for checking. > > > > best regards and thanks, > > linda If you are interested in trying Chinese medicine, the formula gui zhi fu ling wan (Cinnamon Twig and Poria Pill) is a very commonly-used formula to treat blood stasis during pregnancy. It is also the most commonly-used formula or base formula for treating uterine fibroids, which tend to be classified in TCM under the traditional disease heading of " concretions and conglomerations " (zheng jia). Uterine fibroids often present with profuse bleeding, so they may also be treated by using the TCM diseases of profuse menstruation or flooding and spotting. Within the various TCM diseases that fibroids correspond to, there are a number of patterns. The pattern should be properly identified and the corresponding treatment should be used as a base. Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan is generally indicated for patterns of congealing cold-damp or blood stasis, although the harsher formula Da Huang Zhe Chong Wan is selected for severe cases of blood stasis. Of course, you should be cautious when treating pregnant patients, and do not take any risks by using harsh blood-quickening medicinals or other contraindicated agents. Eric Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145<http://toolbar.thebizpl\ ace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145> <http://groups.ya\ hoo.com> and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.