CHM, antioxidants, WM medications & cholesterol

[Guest guest]

Hi & All,

 

Paraphrasing Todd:

> It is a reminder that there is much we can't know without controlled

> studies... a reminder that even longterm use of CHMs in combination

> with WMs is not even remotely proven safe. When we consider drug/herb

> interactions, we usually mean something obvious, like diarrhea or a

> headache. But subtle things, like changes in cholesterol, typically are

> silent killers and we don't know until it is too late. Despite the lack

> of any hard data to question the use of combined herb/drug therapy, we

> are in new territory and this could easily come back to bite us in the

> butts. Many CHMs have antioxidant properties, thus we need to be very

> careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs.

>

> HT disease is the #1 killer in America ... Anything that herbalists do

> that increases the risk of HT attack is a lawsuit waiting to happen ...

> My guess is that if you get sued under such a scenario, your

> malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one of

> many reasons I have recently been advocating the use of CHMs for short

> term use in acute conditions or to control symptoms. The mere fact that

> the Chinese have used certain herbs longterm does not guarantee their

> safety under these conditions nor do the claims of Chinese docs that

> the whole issue is a red herring. Most Chinese docs know little or

> nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on this topic of

> drug/herb interaction is baseless. Todd

 

IMO, Todd has raised a critical point, and I agree with his alarm-call.

 

CHM and WM developed more or less independently of each other,

follow different thinking processes and (until recently) were not used

together, at least for prolonged periods.

 

As Todd said, there are HUGE gaps in our knowledge of herb-drug

interactions (positive or negative), especially over prolonged periods of

time.

 

We are in a real quandary because I suspect that MOST patients who

present for CHM for chronic problems are ALREADY taking one or more

WM drugs daily. I know of people who take/have taken 4-13 different

WMs at the same time!

 

CHM practitioners probably know as little about modern WM/western

pharmacology as Allopathic doctors know about CHM/Chinese

pharmacology.

 

Should WE advise patients on WMs to wean off them before starting

CHM? Many (most?) allopathic doctors take that line - they advise their

patients NOT to use CHMs while they are on the WMs.

has raised the spectre of law-suits if anything goes wrong in

patients taking CHMs with WMs. Because WM is " in the saddle " , with

support of Governments, Universities, public health kudos, etc., you can

bet your bottom dollar that if such cases go to court, the odds are that

the OMD will be hammered rather than the WMD.

has given us all a wake-up call. So ... where do we go from here?

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

On 11/27/05, < wrote:

 

As Todd said, there are HUGE gaps in our knowledge of herb-drug

> interactions (positive or negative), especially over prolonged periods of

> time.

 

 

I like the " positive or negative " addition here. I currently have a

toothache, an abscess at the root of a tooth for which I'm taking a

penicillin type antibiotic. I'm also taking some Ge Gen to guide it to the

stomach channel in my jaw. Of course one case isn't enough to assess the

efficacy of this compared to not guiding the antibiotic action, however it

is one example of using herbs and drugs together toward a beneficial

outcome.

 

I realize that this thread is about protecting our practices, but while

we're all running away from the dangers of this issue, we can also look at

the opportunities that it presents. Imagine a drug/herb combination that out

performs the drug only. Again, clinical trials are required to generate the

numbers to prove this theory.

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Of course one case isn't enough to assess the

efficacy of this compared to not guiding the antibiotic action, however it

is one example of using herbs and drugs together toward a beneficial

outcome.

>>>>

Al

You have to make the assumption that ge gen does not interfere with penicillin.

While it probably does not this is an assumption. On the other side of the coin

even with pharmaceuticals we have huge gaps in the knowledge of interactions

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Al Stone

Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:56 AM

Re: Re: CHM, antioxidants, WM medications & cholesterol

 

 

On 11/27/05, < wrote:

 

As Todd said, there are HUGE gaps in our knowledge of herb-drug

> interactions (positive or negative), especially over prolonged periods of

> time.

 

 

I like the " positive or negative " addition here. I currently have a

toothache, an abscess at the root of a tooth for which I'm taking a

penicillin type antibiotic. I'm also taking some Ge Gen to guide it to the

stomach channel in my jaw. Of course one case isn't enough to assess the

efficacy of this compared to not guiding the antibiotic action, however it

is one example of using herbs and drugs together toward a beneficial

outcome.

 

I realize that this thread is about protecting our practices, but while

we're all running away from the dangers of this issue, we can also look at

the opportunities that it presents. Imagine a drug/herb combination that out

performs the drug only. Again, clinical trials are required to generate the

numbers to prove this theory.

 

--

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi & All,

 

Paraphrasing Todd:

> It is a reminder that there is much we can't know without controlled

> studies... a reminder that even longterm use of CHMs in combination

> with WMs is not even remotely proven safe. When we consider drug/herb

> interactions, we usually mean something obvious, like diarrhea or a

> headache. But subtle things, like changes in cholesterol, typically are

> silent killers and we don't know until it is too late. Despite the lack

> of any hard data to question the use of combined herb/drug therapy, we

> are in new territory and this could easily come back to bite us in the

> butts. Many CHMs have antioxidant properties, thus we need to be very

> careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs.

>

> HT disease is the #1 killer in America ... Anything that herbalists do

> that increases the risk of HT attack is a lawsuit waiting to happen ...

> My guess is that if you get sued under such a scenario, your

> malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one of

> many reasons I have recently been advocating the use of CHMs for short

> term use in acute conditions or to control symptoms. The mere fact that

> the Chinese have used certain herbs longterm does not guarantee their

> safety under these conditions nor do the claims of Chinese docs that

> the whole issue is a red herring. Most Chinese docs know little or

> nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on this topic of

> drug/herb interaction is baseless. Todd

 

IMO, Todd has raised a critical point, and I agree with his alarm-call.

 

CHM and WM developed more or less independently of each other,

follow different thinking processes and (until recently) were not used

together, at least for prolonged periods.

 

As Todd said, there are HUGE gaps in our knowledge of herb-drug

interactions (positive or negative), especially over prolonged periods of

time.

 

We are in a real quandary because I suspect that MOST patients who

present for CHM for chronic problems are ALREADY taking one or more

WM drugs daily. I know of people who take/have taken 4-13 different

WMs at the same time!

 

CHM practitioners probably know as little about modern WM/western

pharmacology as Allopathic doctors know about CHM/Chinese

pharmacology.

 

Should WE advise patients on WMs to wean off them before starting

CHM? Many (most?) allopathic doctors take that line - they advise their

patients NOT to use CHMs while they are on the WMs.

has raised the spectre of law-suits if anything goes wrong in

patients taking CHMs with WMs. Because WM is " in the saddle " , with

support of Governments, Universities, public health kudos, etc., you can

bet your bottom dollar that if such cases go to court, the odds are that

the OMD will be hammered rather than the WMD.

has given us all a wake-up call. So ... where do we go from here?

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

Al,

Have you tried adding Salvia, Dan shen? It has a rep for enhancing

microcirculation. Subhuti Dharmananda has an article on it at www.itmonline.org,

if i'm not mistaken.

 

ann

 

 

 

I like the " positive or negative " addition here. I currently have a

toothache, an abscess at the root of a tooth for which I'm taking a

penicillin type antibiotic. I'm also taking some Ge Gen to guide it to the

stomach channel in my jaw. Of course one case isn't enough to assess the

efficacy of this compared to not guiding the antibiotic action, however it

is one example of using herbs and drugs together toward a beneficial

outcome.

 

I realize that this thread is about protecting our practices, but while

we're all running away from the dangers of this issue, we can also look at

the opportunities that it presents. Imagine a drug/herb combination that out

performs the drug only. Again, clinical trials are required to generate the

numbers to prove this theory.

 

--

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

----------

 

 

 

Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/184 - Release 11/27/05

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Matt, I work around a lot of MD's, and some DO's,

and it is by far the minority that practice poor

and/or insensitive medicine. The majority of them

ARE in practice to help patients. When

prescribing new rx's, they do compare (1) side

effects and (2) costs for patients.

 

I guess b/c I work around so many of " them, " I

understand the adversarial tone even less than I

used to - and I really never did.

 

Lynn

 

 

--- Matthew Sieradski <mattsieradski

wrote:

 

> Phil and Todd:

>

> The problem is also complicated by the fact

> that most M.D.s don't even practice Western

> Medicine well. The routinely overlook the fact

> that their medicines are causing side-effects

> (even the most highlighted ones), and then

> continue to give drugs to combat those very

> same side effects. In my clinical experience,

> this is almost always how patients end up

> taking a dozen or more different drugs. By the

> time we get the case, it's enormously more

> difficult to unravel than it would have been

> had we seen them when they began having side

> effects from the primary medication.

>

> -Matt

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

 

My experience is certainly not a thorough one, but one based upon those

patients seeking acupuncture and Chinese herbal treatment. I see quite a number

of cases where MDs have made obvious mis-diagnoses or have, as I said, ignored

side effects of drugs that they themselves prescribed. This is not just

something I alone have noticed, but colleagues of mine have, as well. So perhaps

I was overstating the case; replace " most M.D.s " with " many M.D.s " . I'm not sure

how many. Maybe most, maybe not.

 

Frankly, this is not a phenomena limited to the biomedical fields, as I have

also seen many cases where acupuncturists have prescribed herbs where they were

clearly contraindicated. I have no particular adversity towards biomedicine, but

rather towards poor practice of medicine, regardless of the variety.

 

Perhaps if Western medical doctors had enough time to think clearly through a

case, instead of the 5 minutes that is common in today's practices, this would

happen less frequently. As with acupuncturists, I think they shouldn't prescribe

Chinese herbs unless they have seriously studied Chinese herbal medicine under

competent instructors for several years.

 

For the record, I did not mean to imply that I thought that most M.D.s were

callous and uncaring towards their patients. Not at all. I simply believe that

good intention must be paired with skillful means if the results are to be

helpful.

 

-Matt

 

" J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore wrote:

Matt, I work around a lot of MD's, and some DO's,

and it is by far the minority that practice poor

and/or insensitive medicine. The majority of them

ARE in practice to help patients. When

prescribing new rx's, they do compare (1) side

effects and (2) costs for patients.

 

I guess b/c I work around so many of " them, " I

understand the adversarial tone even less than I

used to - and I really never did.

 

Lynn

 

 

--- Matthew Sieradski <mattsieradski

wrote:

 

> Phil and Todd:

>

> The problem is also complicated by the fact

> that most M.D.s don't even practice Western

> Medicine well. The routinely overlook the fact

> that their medicines are causing side-effects

> (even the most highlighted ones), and then

> continue to give drugs to combat those very

> same side effects. In my clinical experience,

> this is almost always how patients end up

> taking a dozen or more different drugs. By the

> time we get the case, it's enormously more

> difficult to unravel than it would have been

> had we seen them when they began having side

> effects from the primary medication.

>

> -Matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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