Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 coastacu To:Chinese Medicine Subject:Prozac Date:Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:46:00 -0500 Hello All, I have through the years encountered patients who, for one reason or another, do not respond well to TCM treatment of their depression and who choose to begin using Prozac. Or, patients who come to me for other reasons and are happily using Prozac already. Admittedly, not the best choice from where I sit, but it is their choice. So, how to deal with the normal side effect of greatly reduced libido? I have struggled with this to no effect in the past. If we accept, as compassionate health care providers, that patients have the right to make their own choices, how do we deal with the side effects? There do seem to be elements of kidney yin and/or yang depletion, along with liver and heart issues, but I have been unable to effect a change. Any ideas? Thank You! Beata Booth LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 coastacu wrote: > So, how to deal with the normal side effect of greatly reduced libido? I have > struggled with this to no effect in the past. If we accept, as compassionate > health care providers, that patients have the right to make their own choices, > how do we deal with the side effects? There do seem to be elements of kidney yin > and/or yang depletion, along with liver and heart issues, but I have been unable > to effect a change. Any ideas? > refine 5 e pattern this can be largely ST offending Water yin establish this with: face color diagnosis - tongue markings - parental qi history - symptom chronology once established treat with accurate horary 5 shu in bi phasal mode i am betting there is some asymmetry also, correct this first in about 3 to 5 turns at 4 day intervals there will be some change in about 7 turns this will become apparent in 10 one is well on the way i would suggest a well thought waning off lastly a 1 a month tune up for 1 year all along one ignores what he is taking, that being the better part of valor Dr. Holmes Keikobad Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery Diplomate in Public Health & Hygiene Diplomate in Acupuncture NCCAOM Licensed Acupuncturist AZ & CO Clinician Community Acupuncture Clinic Clinical Director Acupuncture CEUS on DVD CD www.acu-free.com. Toll Free 1.888.TRU.SELF <878.7353> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Hello, just a thought, but you can often do a straight swop for the Prozac (or other SSRI) with St. Johns Wort and Kava-Kava (50-50) - usually its a smooth transition (NB Kava-kava is banned in UK) and then you have the `naked` patient - much better for acupuncture. regards stephen > > Hello All, > > I have through the years encountered patients who, for one reason or > another, do not respond well to TCM treatment of their depression and who > choose to begin using Prozac. Or, patients who come to me for other reasons > and are happily using Prozac already. Admittedly, not the best choice from > where I sit, but it is their choice. > > So, how to deal with the normal side effect of greatly reduced libido? I > have struggled with this to no effect in the past. If we accept, as > compassionate health care providers, that patients have the right to make > their own choices, how do we deal with the side effects? There do seem to be > elements of kidney yin and/or yang depletion, along with liver and heart > issues, but I have been unable to effect a change. Any ideas? > > Thank You! > > Beata Booth LAc > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Have you considered Damiana tincture? I don't imagine it's part of the TCM pharmacy, but it is fairly widely available at natural food stores (I've found it at whole foods) and can be effectively used on an as-needed basis - I don't believe it's intended for regular use. I've found it effective for women dealing with loss of libido related to menopause, though most of the articles I've seen recommend it for men. -- Susan Kol coastacu wrote: coastacu To:Chinese Medicine Subject:Prozac Date:Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:46:00 -0500 Hello All, I have through the years encountered patients who, for one reason or another, do not respond well to TCM treatment of their depression and who choose to begin using Prozac. Or, patients who come to me for other reasons and are happily using Prozac already. Admittedly, not the best choice from where I sit, but it is their choice. So, how to deal with the normal side effect of greatly reduced libido? I have struggled with this to no effect in the past. If we accept, as compassionate health care providers, that patients have the right to make their own choices, how do we deal with the side effects? There do seem to be elements of kidney yin and/or yang depletion, along with liver and heart issues, but I have been unable to effect a change. Any ideas? Thank You! Beata Booth LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Hello Beata, > There do seem to be elements of kidney yin and/or yang depletion, along with liver and heart issues, but I >have been unable to effect a change. Any ideas? > I guess that as long as the patients don't manage to get in touch with the underlying emotions that are causing the depresion, I am not sure how much real progress can be made. Depression is anger turned inwards. WIth a lot of boundary (Metal) and self-worth (Fire) issues. I am currently working with a few people on antidepressant of one sort or another, and my general impression is " sleepy/lethargic energy " . Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 Since school, for every individual taking anti-depressants, anti-hypertensives, oral contraceptives, other agents that set new physiological parameters, I experience in the pulse that it is pushing against something - accurate appraisal, of course. Do treat the (liver qi etc) stagnation as needed. Personally, for patients on anti-depressant meds, Prozac is my least fav, heavy on side-effects incl. sexual as you are observing. A psychologist I know says one patient called it his " feel nothing " medicine. Effexor and Lexapro have less sedation, sexual side effects and *weight gain.* Please do not neglect to refer patients with deficient relationship and life skills to psychotherapy with a very good masters or doctorate level counselor/psychologist. I believe I do not hear enough of this from colleagues. Yet, working with counselors, our patients may " get it " sooner, internalizing so that previous or new intellectual understanding becomes gut level, part of one's being, long before it might just doing talk therapy. Lynn --- coastacu wrote: > coastacu > To:Chinese Medicine > Subject:Prozac > Date:Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:46:00 -0500 > > > Hello All, > > I have through the years encountered > patients who, for one reason or another, do not > respond well to TCM treatment of their > depression and who choose to begin using > Prozac. Or, patients who come to me for other > reasons and are happily using Prozac already. > Admittedly, not the best choice from where I > sit, but it is their choice. > > So, how to deal with the normal side effect > of greatly reduced libido? I have struggled > with this to no effect in the past. If we > accept, as compassionate health care providers, > that patients have the right to make their own > choices, how do we deal with the side effects? > There do seem to be elements of kidney yin > and/or yang depletion, along with liver and > heart issues, but I have been unable to effect > a change. Any ideas? > > Thank You! > > > Beata Booth LAc > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music./unlimited/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 ....refine 5 e pattern this can be largely ST offending Water yin Dr. Holmes Keikobad... In fact, Holmes, I recall reading that historically, the most anti-depressant meds with the most anticholinergic effects were also the most effective a-d meds. I had forgotten that, thank you for the reminder. In other words, if effective, they are going to be drying. If someone is on continued a-d tx, I would think ongoing attention acu/herbs to moisten, and plenty of po fluids would be a necessary tx focus. Lynn Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music./unlimited/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 the most anti-depressant meds with the most anticholinergic effects were also the most effective a-d meds. >>>>> That is not true. The first generation TCAs had the most anticholinergic effects and were not and not more or less effective than second generation TCAs or SSRIs. They tend to be more sedative so better for sleep problems. The only antidepressants that MAY be slightly more effective are the new atypical. Oakland, CA 94609 - J. Lynn Detamore Chinese Medicine Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:11 PM Re: Prozac ...refine 5 e pattern this can be largely ST offending Water yin Dr. Holmes Keikobad... In fact, Holmes, I recall reading that historically, the most anti-depressant meds with the most anticholinergic effects were also the most effective a-d meds. I had forgotten that, thank you for the reminder. In other words, if effective, they are going to be drying. If someone is on continued a-d tx, I would think ongoing attention acu/herbs to moisten, and plenty of po fluids would be a necessary tx focus. Lynn Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music./unlimited/ Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.