AP in patients on immunosuppressive / anti-transplant-rejection therapy

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Jason wrote:

> You both seem to be in agreement that " Acupuncture will not override

> the effects of immunosuppressant drugs " , or that, as you said Joe,

> because there is no direct equivalence to the immune Sx in TCM, we

> cannot deduce that the immune Sx is strengthened. This is my

> understanding as well, but I obviously want to be very careful with

> this and would like a little more assurance from your expertise. There

> have been many trials which have measured red and white blood cell

> count before and after needling points like St36 which from a TCM

> perspective, as we know, tonify Qi and Blood. The results of these

> tests show an elevated level of both red and white blood cells after

> Tx. Although I know we can't equate anything specifically with the

> western idea of the immune Sx, these results would indeed indicate that

> we are potentially enhancing immune response. And so my doubts still

> remain I'm afraid about the safety of treatment when taking

> immunosuppressants.... Jason

 

Research & clinical experience suggests that, depending on the

pathophysiological state of the subject, AP Pts have amphoteric

(opposite) actions. That means that AP has homeostatic actions,

nudging the subject to normality, whether a function is hyper or hypo.

 

Key immunomodulator Pts include Hegu-LI04, Quchi-LI11, Zusanli-

ST36, Dazhui-GV14, Shenshu-BL23, Zhishe-BL52, Sanyinjiao-SP06,

etc.

 

(1) They are used widely in infections, fevers and inflammation (when

immunostimulation is needed).

 

(2) They are used in cancer [although Are Thoresen would prefer to use

his KO Method in cancer]; immunosuppression is common in cancer

patiernts, even before tretment begins..

 

(3) They also are used TOGETHER with immunosuppressant drugs

(such as in cancer patients being treated with chemotherapy and / or

radiotherapy);

 

(4) They are used in allergies and autoimmune diseases, where one

would desire immunosuppressant effects.

 

I would have no worry about using those points in patients on

immunosuppressive therapy.

 

Am I wrong in that belief?

Best regards,

 

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man doing it "

[Guest guest]

Thanks Phil.

 

In your points 1 + 4, modulation is what is required of the immune system

through treatment, and so of course acupuncture would be indicated for the

reasons you state. However, after a transplant, immuno-suppression is

presumably the required state and so modulation would surely be acting

contrary to the care being provided by western meds????

 

Is there any good research that has been done on the use of acupuncture in

cancer cases when immunosuppressants are indicated (your points 2+3).

 

At a slight tangent to the main thread here, would you still use points such

as St36, LI4, Sp6 etc when a patient presents with a full condition? There

was always some debate where I trained about whether tonifying Qi when the

condition e.g. wind-cold or wind-heat was still full would actually

strengthen the pathogen and thereby worsen the condition. We were taught to

release the exterior first and only tonify when enough of the fullness had

been cleared.

?????

Best wishes

 

Jason

 

 

 

(1) They are used widely in infections, fevers and inflammation (when

immunostimulation is needed).

 

(2) They are used in cancer [although Are Thoresen would prefer to use

his KO Method in cancer]; immunosuppression is common in cancer

patiernts, even before tretment begins..

 

(3) They also are used TOGETHER with immunosuppressant drugs

(such as in cancer patients being treated with chemotherapy and / or

radiotherapy);

 

(4) They are used in allergies and autoimmune diseases, where one

would desire immunosuppressant effects.

 

I would have no worry about using those points in patients on

immunosuppressive therapy.

 

Am I wrong in that belief?

Best regards,

 

Email: <

[Guest guest]

One can supplement or drain any acupuncture point/hole according to

the pattern. For example, you can drain St. 36, LI 4, and any other

point/hole.

 

There is no one 'recipe' for supplementing qi in exterior

contractions of wind-heat or wind-cold. If there is underlying

spleen qi vacuity, for example, one will combine supplementation with

drainage. There are many different treatment strategies that one can

choose according to the pattern.

 

 

On Nov 14, 2005, at 6:50 AM, jason davies wrote:

 

> At a slight tangent to the main thread here, would you still use

> points such

> as St36, LI4, Sp6 etc when a patient presents with a full

> condition? There

> was always some debate where I trained about whether tonifying Qi

> when the

> condition e.g. wind-cold or wind-heat was still full would actually

> strengthen the pathogen and thereby worsen the condition. We were

> taught to

> release the exterior first and only tonify when enough of the

> fullness had

> been cleared.

> ?????