Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Thanks for the book recommendation..... In the meantime do you have any comments on the 2nd question I raised? Thanks Jason 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be acting against the medication and therefore increase the chances of rejection? This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune conditions. My understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive, but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being taken, I'm not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much appreciated Thanks Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Hi All, ^ Jason Jason davies wrote on 9 Nov 2005 : > 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant > medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture > contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted > that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be acting > against the medication and therefore increase the chances of rejection? > This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in > which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune conditions. My > understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune > function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive, > but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being taken, I'm > not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much appreciated > Thanks Jason Apologies for the late reply; I have been snowed under with other work and missed this. I cannot be certain, but my gut feeling is to agree with what Jason said in the first part of his thought: " My understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive " There are many precedents for ambivalent (amphoteric or opposite) effects of AP, but they tend to work " towards the middle " , i.e to have homeostatic effects depending on the " body's needs " . For example, ST36 can activate an atonic ST, yet calm ST spasm / vomiting; LI04 can be used to stimulate the immune system (in infections), or to suppress it (in allergies). Comments from other listers? Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2006 Report Share Posted January 28, 2006 Dear All, I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for about ten years and have had no problems to date with using acupuncture or herbs. Although the drugs are given as immunosupressants to avoid rejection, it is also important that the patient has a good defense mechanism against infection. I would think that by tonyfying the wei qi, which is primarily after all present to protect against external pathogenic invasion, we are able to regulate the immune system and protect against infection, without increasing the chances of rejection of internal organs. I have also found the use of Chinese Herbs to be helpful in the long term management of chronic kidney failure, the use of da huang, in particular has been shown to help reduce nitrogen levels in the blood and so ease the burden on the kidneys. Recent studies have also shown that ginkgo biloba can have a protective effect against the kidney damaging effects of cyclosporines. Best regards, < wrote: Hi All, ^ Jason Jason davies wrote on 9 Nov 2005 : > 2. If he has a transplant he will be given immunosuppressant > medications to prevent him rejecting the new kidney. Is acupuncture > contraindicated in this instance, given that it is generally accepted > that acupuncture strengthens the immune system? i.e. will it be acting > against the medication and therefore increase the chances of rejection? > This raises the broader question of treatment for other conditions in > which the immune system is overactive such as autoimmune conditions. My > understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune > function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive, > but in this instance with immunosuppressant medication being taken, I'm > not sure if it would be a good thing. Advice would be much appreciated > Thanks Jason Apologies for the late reply; I have been snowed under with other work and missed this. I cannot be certain, but my gut feeling is to agree with what Jason said in the first part of his thought: " My understanding has always been that treatment will regulate immune function i.e. stimulate when deficient and settle it when overactive " There are many precedents for ambivalent (amphoteric or opposite) effects of AP, but they tend to work " towards the middle " , i.e to have homeostatic effects depending on the " body's needs " . For example, ST36 can activate an atonic ST, yet calm ST spasm / vomiting; LI04 can be used to stimulate the immune system (in infections), or to suppress it (in allergies). Comments from other listers? Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Tony Booker wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for about > ten years and have had no problems to date with using acupuncture or > herbs. Although the drugs are given as immunosupressants to avoid > rejection, it is also important that the patient has a good defense > mechanism against infection. Hi Tony! Is your patient " allowed " to take vitamins, particularly vitamin c? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Hi Pete, Yes vitamin C can be taken, - but generally as part of a multivitamin regime and so at quite a low dose. I wouldn't recommend high doses of Vitamin C with Kidney disease as it has been shown to cause kidney stones which wouldn't be helpful. Also I would think that as it cant be stored, taking large doses of Vitamin C would make the kidneys work harder which again is not desirable in chronic kidney failure - do you know of any other reasons Vitamin C should be avoided? The main thing to avoid is potassium, so mushrooms in particular, should be avoided and many of the green vegetables which is why a vitamin C supplement is sometimes indicated. Best wishes, petetheisen <petetheisen wrote: Tony Booker wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been treating a kidney transplant patient on and off for about > ten years and have had no problems to date with using acupuncture or > herbs. Although the drugs are given as immunosupressants to avoid > rejection, it is also important that the patient has a good defense > mechanism against infection. Hi Tony! Is your patient " allowed " to take vitamins, particularly vitamin c? Regards, Pete Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Tony Booker wrote: > Yes vitamin C can be taken, - but generally as part of a multivitamin > regime and so at quite a low dose. > > I wouldn't recommend high doses of Vitamin C with Kidney disease as > it has been shown to cause kidney stones which wouldn't be helpful. > Also I would think that as it cant be stored, taking large doses of > Vitamin C would make the kidneys work harder which again is not > desirable in chronic kidney failure - do you know of any other > reasons Vitamin C should be avoided? > > The main thing to avoid is potassium, so mushrooms in particular, > should be avoided and many of the green vegetables which is why a > vitamin C supplement is sometimes indicated. Hi Tony! The only way to take vitamin c is time release. Can take a lot that way. I take 6000 per day and I never get colds. Time was I always had a cold. I know of no reason that vitamin c should be avoided. I would be most interested in the proof that vitamin c causes kidney stones. Have you a link to that? What does potassium do to the patient? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 petetheisen <petetheisen wrote: Tony Booker wrote: > Yes vitamin C can be taken, - but generally as part of a multivitamin > regime and so at quite a low dose. > > I wouldn't recommend high doses of Vitamin C with Kidney disease as > it has been shown to cause kidney stones which wouldn't be helpful. > Also I would think that as it cant be stored, taking large doses of > Vitamin C would make the kidneys work harder which again is not > desirable in chronic kidney failure - do you know of any other > reasons Vitamin C should be avoided? > > The main thing to avoid is potassium, so mushrooms in particular, > should be avoided and many of the green vegetables which is why a > vitamin C supplement is sometimes indicated. Hi Tony! The only way to take vitamin c is time release. Can take a lot that way. I take 6000 per day and I never get colds. Time was I always had a cold. I know of no reason that vitamin c should be avoided. I would be most interested in the proof that vitamin c causes kidney stones. Have you a link to that? What does potassium do to the patient? Regards, Pete Hi Pete, 6g of Vitamin C sounds quite a lot to me. What happens if you drop it down to 5g, do you go down with a cold? I've not seen any evidence to suggest high doses prevent colds but i've seen evidence to show that the placebo effect is dose dependent - do you think your lack of colds is the placebo effect? I used to get more colds too. I found that by living a more balanced life style my immune system improved - if I get a cold now I can usualy work out why! Regarding Vitamin C and kidney stones, the risk is mainly in individuals that have high levels of oxalates in their blood, Vitamin C in these cases promotes the formation of oxalate kidney stones - sorry I dont have a link. With regards to potassium, potassium is excreted through the kidneys, if renal function is impaired then it will be harder for the body to maintain safe levels of serum potassium. If potassium levels increase, this will lead to cardiovascular problems and could eventually lead to heart failure. Best regards, Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Tony Booker wrote: <snip> Hi Tony! Inline: > 6g of Vitamin C sounds quite a lot to me. What happens if you drop it > down to 5g, do you go down with a cold? Well, as a matter of fact, you start to get them, but not as bad as if you were not taking any vitamin c at all. > I've not seen any evidence to suggest high doses prevent colds but > i've seen evidence to show that the placebo effect is dose dependent > - do you think your lack of colds is the placebo effect? Did Linus Pauling think so? Have you a link to this evidence? Is it about vitamin c? If it is placebo, I don't care as long as it works. > I used to get more colds too. I found that by living a more balanced > life style my immune system improved - if I get a cold now I can > usualy work out why! Why do you get them when you do? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi, actually the suggestion that vit c causes kidney stones has never been proven, is speculation, and is a load of old phooey. regards stephen > > > petetheisen <petetheisen wrote: Tony Booker wrote: > > Yes vitamin C can be taken, - but generally as part of a multivitamin > > regime and so at quite a low dose. > > > > I wouldn't recommend high doses of Vitamin C with Kidney disease as > > it has been shown to cause kidney stones which wouldn't be helpful. > > Also I would think that as it cant be stored, taking large doses of > > Vitamin C would make the kidneys work harder which again is not > > desirable in chronic kidney failure - do you know of any other > > reasons Vitamin C should be avoided? > > > > The main thing to avoid is potassium, so mushrooms in particular, > > should be avoided and many of the green vegetables which is why a > > vitamin C supplement is sometimes indicated. > > Hi Tony! > > The only way to take vitamin c is time release. Can take a lot that way. > I take 6000 per day and I never get colds. Time was I always had a cold. > > I know of no reason that vitamin c should be avoided. I would be most > interested in the proof that vitamin c causes kidney stones. Have you a > link to that? > > What does potassium do to the patient? > > Regards, > > Pete > > Hi Pete, > > 6g of Vitamin C sounds quite a lot to me. What happens if you drop it down > to 5g, do you go down with a cold? I've not seen any evidence to suggest high > doses prevent colds but i've seen evidence to show that the placebo effect is > dose dependent - do you think your lack of colds is the placebo effect? > > I used to get more colds too. I found that by living a more balanced life > style my immune system improved - if I get a cold now I can usualy work out > why! > > Regarding Vitamin C and kidney stones, the risk is mainly in individuals > that have high levels of oxalates in their blood, Vitamin C in these cases > promotes the formation of oxalate kidney stones - sorry I dont have a link. > > With regards to potassium, potassium is excreted through the kidneys, if > renal function is impaired then it will be harder for the body to maintain > safe levels of serum potassium. If potassium levels increase, this will lead > to cardiovascular problems and could eventually lead to heart failure. > > Best regards, > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Tony Booker wrote: <snip> > >> I used to get more colds too. I found that by living a more >> balanced life style my immune system improved - if I get a cold now >> I can usualy work out why! > > > Why do you get them when you do? > > Too much work, Too much thinking, too much alcohol! > > Too little rest, Too little exercise, too little fun! Hi Tony! All of these factors are in my life *except* the alcohol. But I *never* get a cold unless I fall down on the vitamin c. If I get back extra heavy (12,000/day) on the vitamin c at the first sign of a cold the cold goes away immediately. This has been my experience for more than 20 years. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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