Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Hi I worked for 5 yrs in a methadone treatment center and with HIV for about 15yrs. now. First the patients need to be doing some sort of active addiction counseling when they are withdrawing from Methadone. The minimum I insisted on was a 12 step or similar program. We can deal with the physical withdrawal issues, but we are not trained addiction counselors. It will raise all of their triggers no matter how long they have been on Methadone. Methadone attacks the Kidney and Spleen, so fear is a big issue. I will never forget one woman's story. While she was withdrawing an old drug buddy got out of jail. He was pounding on her door saying he had some drugs and he wanted to get high with her. He knew her car was there and he wouldn't stop. She had to lay on the floor of her bedroom with her lights off, pressing her ear pellets and repeating all of the things that she learned in her counseling. She said that she knew if she got up to her knees to make a phone call she would not have been able to stop herself from going and answering the door and letting him in. She stayed clean. It's not a short term process. My most successful patients have done a very long term process. The NADA protocol plus a few extra hand and scalp points is all I basically ever used. We did not have facilities to do a full body treatment at my treatment center. They would drop their methadone dose every two weeks. This allows their body to become used to the lower dose before they drop again. It was easier for them to drop a larger amount every 2 weeks than a smaller amount every week. The amount that they drop depends on where their dose level is. You have to think about it as the percentage that they are dropping, not the amount in mgs. When it is above thirty, they would drop 5 mgs. every 2 weeks. Around 30, they would drop down to 3 every 2 weeks. Around 15 to 20 they would drop to 2 mg every 2 weeks. Below 10 they would drop to 1 mg. every 2 weeks. The program, that I worked with, would not allow them to come in for acupuncture once they had stopped the methadone completely. I felt that was a mistake and would try to hook them up with a low cost clinic. That last drop from 1mg to none is a huge emotional and physical withdrawal. It doesn't seem like it, but I have seen people who are doing fine at 1 or 2 mgs., loose it when they stop it completely. From a TCM point of view their body will have a lot of Kidney and Spleen issues from the HIV, HIV Meds as well as the methadone. The HIV Meds keep the latent pathogen (viral load) under control so that does not need to be a major treatment focus during the withdrawal process. Of course there is their own unique constitutional issues. The few days when the dose drops, as their body adjusts, they will have some additional short term shaoyang symptoms. Hope this helps. Shad Reinstein, Lac, Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Hello, I have a two patients who are HIV+, who are taking HIV meds. Because of their history of opiate addiction, they are also on Methadone. Both patients would like to stop the Methadone. Does anyone have some experience with this type of detox? I already use the NADA protocol, however with Methadone dependency I think I might need something more agressive. Thank You, Maria Kuriloff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Methadone attacks the Kidney and Spleen, so fear is a big issue. >>>> Is there any concisus about how drugs affect Organs in the detox community? Also is there anything in writing about this issue and anything about other Rx drugs? I need this for a chapter i am writing for a book thanks Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2005 Report Share Posted October 30, 2005 Dear Shad, Thanks so much for the information. Maria Kuriloff Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of shadjody Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:41 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Methadone Detox Hi I worked for 5 yrs in a methadone treatment center and with HIV for about 15yrs. now. First the patients need to be doing some sort of active addiction counseling when they are withdrawing from Methadone. The minimum I insisted on was a 12 step or similar program. We can deal with the physical withdrawal issues, but we are not trained addiction counselors. It will raise all of their triggers no matter how long they have been on Methadone. Methadone attacks the Kidney and Spleen, so fear is a big issue. I will never forget one woman's story. While she was withdrawing an old drug buddy got out of jail. He was pounding on her door saying he had some drugs and he wanted to get high with her. He knew her car was there and he wouldn't stop. She had to lay on the floor of her bedroom with her lights off, pressing her ear pellets and repeating all of the things that she learned in her counseling. She said that she knew if she got up to her knees to make a phone call she would not have been able to stop herself from going and answering the door and letting him in. She stayed clean. It's not a short term process. My most successful patients have done a very long term process. The NADA protocol plus a few extra hand and scalp points is all I basically ever used. We did not have facilities to do a full body treatment at my treatment center. They would drop their methadone dose every two weeks. This allows their body to become used to the lower dose before they drop again. It was easier for them to drop a larger amount every 2 weeks than a smaller amount every week. The amount that they drop depends on where their dose level is. You have to think about it as the percentage that they are dropping, not the amount in mgs. When it is above thirty, they would drop 5 mgs. every 2 weeks. Around 30, they would drop down to 3 every 2 weeks. Around 15 to 20 they would drop to 2 mg every 2 weeks. Below 10 they would drop to 1 mg. every 2 weeks. The program, that I worked with, would not allow them to come in for acupuncture once they had stopped the methadone completely. I felt that was a mistake and would try to hook them up with a low cost clinic. That last drop from 1mg to none is a huge emotional and physical withdrawal. It doesn't seem like it, but I have seen people who are doing fine at 1 or 2 mgs., loose it when they stop it completely. From a TCM point of view their body will have a lot of Kidney and Spleen issues from the HIV, HIV Meds as well as the methadone. The HIV Meds keep the latent pathogen (viral load) under control so that does not need to be a major treatment focus during the withdrawal process. Of course there is their own unique constitutional issues. The few days when the dose drops, as their body adjusts, they will have some additional short term shaoyang symptoms. Hope this helps. Shad Reinstein, Lac, Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Are the patients maintaining the same amount of methadone while you are working with their cessation? One important factor is to find out from the Methadone Clinic if they are willing to begin tapering the patients off of the methadone as you continue acu-detox. Cold turkey off of too high a level of methadone even with acupuncture can be too great a challenge for an addict. I work in a Residential Treatment Center and methadone detox has worked best with a taper from the methadone. Daniel Craig, DOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Daniel, My patients are taking the same amount of Methadone while having Detox Acupuncture. The Methadone clinic is not interested in helping with tapering off. They want to keep patients on Methadone. Maria Kuriloff Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Daniel Craig Sunday, October 30, 2005 7:39 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Methadone Detox Are the patients maintaining the same amount of methadone while you are working with their cessation? One important factor is to find out from the Methadone Clinic if they are willing to begin tapering the patients off of the methadone as you continue acu-detox. Cold turkey off of too high a level of methadone even with acupuncture can be too great a challenge for an addict. I work in a Residential Treatment Center and methadone detox has worked best with a taper from the methadone. Daniel Craig, DOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 Maria, Sorry to hear about the clinic. Seems Methadone Maintainance is primarily about $$$$. Patient welfare is secondary, perhaps terciary? Hope it goes well for them anyway...kicking dope is hard. Narcotics Anonymous is a brilliant asset for wanting-to-recover-addicts. The website is www.na.org and has information that you yourself may find useful in working with addicts. Be well. Peace, Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 You might look up an old article by Steve Given now at Bastyr. It's mainly about illegal drugs and the organs. doug >Message: 3 > Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:26:14 -0800 > " " <alonmarcus >Re: Methadone Detox > >Methadone attacks the Kidney and >Spleen, so fear is a big issue. > > >Is there any concisus about how drugs affect Organs in the detox community? Also is there anything in writing about this issue and anything about other Rx drugs? I need this for a chapter i am writing for a book >thanks > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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