Virgin olive oil is the natural way to kill pain Trans vs. free radica

[Guest guest]

Hi George,

 

Your surprising comments caused me to review the biochemistry once

more and also check on some Medline papers. The number of papers

since 1975 that note that saturated fats block hepatic receptor up

take of cholesterol is rather prodigious. I surely would not want to

argue from your perspective with any of my graduate professors in

biochemistry and physiology.

 

The last time I looked, saturated fatty acids increase the LDL levels

in the blood. Trans fatty acids both increase the LDL levels and

decrease the HDL levels. The last I looked, this is definitely a

problem for people who have or are prone to atherosclerosis. That's

just my reading of the literature over the past couple of decades.

Just did some Medline searches again after reading your comments, and

it kind of looks the same.

 

Guess I'll stick with my soup. But I'm loving the exchange and look

forward to more commentary.

 

For those playing along at home try this " define:trans fat " in your

Google search. For those with PubMed, Medline and UltraMed access try:

[1] " HDL uptake by liver blocked by saturated fats " / English Only /

Abstract Included and ...

[2] " does heat change cis fats to trans fats " / English Only /

Abstract Included

 

Lots of interesting papers regarding heating of partially hydrogenated

oils with rugged outcomes. In the 3rd paper it seems there are

research scientists laboring under the belief that, " Trans

polyunsaturated n-3 fatty acids are formed as a result of the heat

treatment of vegetable oils. " Such is life.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

Chinese Medicine , George Mandler

<gmandler@e...> wrote:

> Mike & Pete -

>

> > mike Bowser wrote:

> >

> >> Many people add the oil after cooking and not to cook with. This

> >> has the

> >> added benefit of not creating more free radicals and trans fats

> >> from the high temp.

>

> Trans fats cannot be created from high heat cooking. Trans fats

> are created by taking a polyunsatrated oil and reducing it (i.e.

> adding hydrogen ions H+) so that it becomes solid. This can only be

> done under intense pressure and a lot of hydrogen. A double bound

> naturally occurs in a -cis form (bent) however during hydrogenation

> one of the H+ might flip to the other side causing the chain to

> straighten forming a trans (straight) bond. It is the trans form

> that wreaks havoc in the body being worse than a saturated fat.

> Normal high heat cooking will never produce trans-fats, however it

> will produce free radicals.

>

> This is once again science trying to improve nature. In this case by

> using polyunsaturated fats as saturated fats (because saturated fats

> are said to be evil) and creating something far worse. BTW - back in

> the late 80's and early 90's the Center for Science in the Public

> Interest (CSPI) that put out the " Nutrition Action Newsletter " , and

> the American Dietetic Association (ADA, of which I'm a member) both

> stated that trans-fats posed little health threat. Amazing how

> special interest control what we hear.

>

> On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:33 PM, Pete Theisen wrote:

> >

> > So what to cook with?

>

> As for free-radicals these are the breakdown of the longer chain

> polys into shorter and shorter chain fatty acids such as alcohols,

> aldehydes and ketones. Interestingly sesame oil slighted heated

> causes an activation of antioxidants so that it actually has greater

> antioxidant capacity than when raw.

> Olive oil is very safe to use for heating because of its high

> antioxidant level. However, if it gets smoky toss it. Olive is a

> low/medium heat oil and if you use it in just in a tomato sauce, soup

> or some other liquid medium there is very little to be concerned about.

> Better high heat oils are rice bran oil, coconut oil, palm oil

> (making a comeback). You definitely don't want to cook or heat

> sunflower,flax etc. They are way too unstable.

>

> Packaged chips are often made with sunflower or safflower oil. Very

> unstable. No doubt lots a mouthful of free-radicals in every bite.

> And stay away from any pre-roasted nuts and seeds (esp the seeds) in

> bulk groceries and packaged in trader joes. Those can be very

> unstable, especially sunflower seeds and pumpkin.

>

> Regards,

> George Mandler

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel,

 

I'm not sure why my comments surprised you or if you've

misinterpreted my post, but I'll play along....

 

On Sep 10, 2005, at 1:27 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

> Your surprising comments caused me to review the biochemistry once

> more and also check on some Medline papers.

 

We all know what is shown in research does not equate to clinical

outcomes especially when the research is looking only at a couple of

endpoints and not the entire picture. There is a plethora of

pathetic research that does not involve one pill and one endpoint

which is what RCTs are geared towards. Yep saturated fats will

increase LDL and decrease HDL, but does that mean *everyone* should

avoid them?

 

> The number of papers

> since 1975 that note that saturated fats block hepatic receptor up

> take of cholesterol is rather prodigious. I surely would not want to

> argue from your perspective with any of my graduate professors in

> biochemistry and physiology.

>

 

If you are trying to say to me that saturated fats are evil and we

shouldn't eat them and do anything to avoid them I'm baffled. I

don't believe that is your standpoint.

If you do believe saturated fats are important in the diet then I

haven't a clue as to why you are challenging me.

 

 

> The last time I looked, saturated fatty acids increase the LDL levels

> in the blood.

 

MCT or SCT do not have this effect. Only those over 14C have been

shown to increase LDL, if you have info otherwise please let me know.

 

> Trans fatty acids both increase the LDL levels and

> decrease the HDL levels.

 

Yep. And 15 years ago TFA were acceptable by the mainstream who

claimed cholesterol was evil, but recently disproved. Are you

familiar with Mary Enig's work? She has been screaming about TFAs

being bad, saturated fats being necessary, and cholesterol not being

the villain it is portrayed to be. So far 2 of the 3 have been

accepted by modern research.

 

>

> For those playing along at home try this " define:trans fat " in your

> Google search. For those with PubMed, Medline and UltraMed access try:

> [1] " HDL uptake by liver blocked by saturated fats " / English Only /

> Abstract Included and ...

> [2] " does heat change cis fats to trans fats " / English Only /

> Abstract Included

Actually best to include PubMed IDs. I don't want to MeSH it right

now and that search string didn't work on PubMed.

 

>

> Lots of interesting papers regarding heating of partially hydrogenated

> oils with rugged outcomes. In the 3rd paper it seems there are

> research scientists laboring under the belief that, " Trans

> polyunsaturated n-3 fatty acids are formed as a result of the heat

> treatment of vegetable oils. "

 

Without the materials/methods few conclusions can be drawn. How

high were they heating it? What oils were they using. If it is

already partially hydrogenated (why would one want to put it in your

body anyway??) then I'd imagine that perhaps a H flip can happen

much more easily since the oil is probably devoid of antioxidants.

I've read research where heating olive oil under normal usage did

not produce trans-fats.

 

Overall the point of my post was that trans-fats cannot be produced

from olive oil and I stand by that as I've read research, plus my

Italian heritage has been using it for more than just 25 years (the

length of time canola oil has been in existence). My mom and

grandmother always cooked with olive oil, I think a few other

Mediterranean families have cooked with it and in fact they probably

still do. If the internet urban legend that trans fats are produced

from heating olive oil were true then why all the longevity

associated with the Mediterranean diet? No doubt you can get

oxidized fats forming free radicals from heating olive oil too high,

but from what I've read and the people I study from you won't get a -

cis to -trans flip unless under pressure, especially with the high

antioxidant level to limit free radical formation.

 

best regards,

--george

 

> Chinese Medicine , George Mandler

> <gmandler@e...> wrote:

>

>> Mike & Pete -

>>

>>

>>> mike Bowser wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>> Many people add the oil after cooking and not to cook with. This

>>>> has the

>>>> added benefit of not creating more free radicals and trans fats

>>>> from the high temp.

>>>>

>>

>> Trans fats cannot be created from high heat cooking. Trans fats

>> are created by taking a polyunsatrated oil and reducing it (i.e.

>> adding hydrogen ions H+) so that it becomes solid. This can only be

>> done under intense pressure and a lot of hydrogen. A double bound

>> naturally occurs in a -cis form (bent) however during hydrogenation

>> one of the H+ might flip to the other side causing the chain to

>> straighten forming a trans (straight) bond. It is the trans form

>> that wreaks havoc in the body being worse than a saturated fat.

>> Normal high heat cooking will never produce trans-fats, however it

>> will produce free radicals.

>>

>> This is once again science trying to improve nature. In this case by

>> using polyunsaturated fats as saturated fats (because saturated fats

>> are said to be evil) and creating something far worse. BTW - back in

>> the late 80's and early 90's the Center for Science in the Public

>> Interest (CSPI) that put out the " Nutrition Action Newsletter " , and

>> the American Dietetic Association (ADA, of which I'm a member) both

>> stated that trans-fats posed little health threat. Amazing how

>> special interest control what we hear.

>>

>> On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:33 PM, Pete Theisen wrote:

>>

>>>

>>> So what to cook with?

>>>

>>

>> As for free-radicals these are the breakdown of the longer chain

>> polys into shorter and shorter chain fatty acids such as alcohols,

>> aldehydes and ketones. Interestingly sesame oil slighted heated

>> causes an activation of antioxidants so that it actually has greater

>> antioxidant capacity than when raw.

>> Olive oil is very safe to use for heating because of its high

>> antioxidant level. However, if it gets smoky toss it. Olive is a

>> low/medium heat oil and if you use it in just in a tomato sauce, soup

>> or some other liquid medium there is very little to be concerned

>> about.

>> Better high heat oils are rice bran oil, coconut oil, palm oil

>> (making a comeback). You definitely don't want to cook or heat

>> sunflower,flax etc. They are way too unstable.

>>

>> Packaged chips are often made with sunflower or safflower oil. Very

>> unstable. No doubt lots a mouthful of free-radicals in every bite.

>> And stay away from any pre-roasted nuts and seeds (esp the seeds) in

>> bulk groceries and packaged in trader joes. Those can be very

>> unstable, especially sunflower seeds and pumpkin.

>>

>> Regards,

>> George Mandler

>>

>>

 

[Guest guest]

Hi George,

 

I'm not hoping to challenge you. I'm not a competitive type

academically or athletically. I enter forest trail races precisely to

expose myself to nature and to relegate to civilization the

possibility of human competition.

 

I'm not much for belief when it comes to research and clinical

outcomes. So I can't answer your question regarding my beliefs. I

look at the data and attempt to interpret. I have to do so as a

faculty member. My observation about Western clinical practice is

that it is much less objective than the epidemiology that looks at it.

Apparently on that point we disagree. Also I do not have any belief

regarding the evils or virtues of saturated fat. Some monounsaturated

fat in diets appears to be adaptive. Perhaps on those points we also

disagree. I have no problem with that. Feel free to espouse your

perspective.

 

Just did a search using " saturated fats are important in the diet " /

English Only / Abstract Included. Came up with pretty much the same

set of many hundreds of epidemiological and independent research

studies that point in the other direction. I could detect no trend to

show that it would be a good idea to increase or to supplement

saturated fats in the diet. Monounsaturated fats are another matter.

There is a trend which suggests making choices about foods with fats.

Select foods that have omega-3 fatty acids over foods that offer the

same nutrients but lack these fatty acids. Since it's rather

difficult to construct a diet of whole foods that provides less than

10% of the calories from lipids (or ever less that 15% for that

matter), one can include some wild salmon from time to time in place

of a similar type of macro-nutrient. One can add miniscule amounts of

olive or sesame oil to water-based (not frying) cooking.

 

My observation is that active people are best served by a diet of

mostly complex carbohydrates (fruits and cooked vegetables/grains) ...

somewhere around 70% of total calories. These diets contain abundant

essential fatty acids without the addition of an oil. From the

largest studies as well as successful practices, the addition of

animal protein is sparingly small. Both for top athletes as well as

for clinical practice, the published rules are to reduce proteins (in

general) to less than 15% of total calories. The use of frying

techniques which adds to the saturation and trans-fatty acid formation

is an identified problem. This arises in the commercial restaurant

situation from fry-o-lators with month old oil. Also a problem are

fry stations using animal fats or re-using oils for cooking. I don't

think we see this so much at home.

 

I don't have any political or theological ax to grind. I just read

the data and try to keep my scientific observations free of " belief " .

I also try not to be cynical and try things out in the hopes of

finding a positive empirical outcome that wasn't supported by the

science as we know it. Hence, my interest in Chinese medicine which

has been my own source of primary care since the 1970s and at least

part of my source of income since 1988. Chinese medicine has its own

lengthy scientific literature which dwarfs Western science. So I

honor it deeply.

 

Every semester I have to present a rational discussion of these

precise matters to my students regarding nutrition. The " pathetic

research " reason to discount some science might be interesting for a

single paper, but doesn't hold up with regard to hundreds of

repeatable outcomes in a particular direction. If it's raining

outside, we can not say that we don't believe it because one of the

drops was not well formed. That's why there is peer-reviewed journals

and Medline. Any worthy scientist might object to the materials and

methods of any given paper. When it's repeated a hundred times and

becomes the foundation for further research, it's tough to find a

scientist who hasn't recognized the flow of their science.

 

I like your observation of using olive oil in low temperature food

preparations such as marinara sauces. Such water-based sauces can not

exceed 212 degrees F, so heat will not play a big role. However, I

can't support the practice of adding oil or very much animal products

as being much more than gustatory entertainment. I can not see how it

will reduce the lipid intake to less than 20% or in many cases to less

than 10% to 15% which is the goal of the science that I read and

teach. Add a rather miniscule amount might be adaptive from both of

our points of view. However, I see a lot of overweight and out of

shape people arguing on behalf of the importance of olive oil. I've

got to ask if it's as important as lowering calories and increasing

complex carbohydrates?

 

While Dr. Enig and Dr. Mercola make for engaging reading on the

Internet, their contribution to the science of nutrition (basic

research or clinical research) is not significant. I would refrain

from arguing for or against either of these people. Try comparing

Enig's research with T. Colin Campbell's vast research project through

the Nutritional Biochemistry Dept. of Cornell University. That in

itself is enlightening with regard to materials and methods.

 

So far the clinical and sports nutrition studying and teaching I've

engaged in over the past 25 years has an interesting congruence with

the Taoist nutrition studies I've been doing over the past 8 years or

so. Like you, I'm from Mediterranean heritage only a bit further east

over by Greece, Macedonia and Bulgaria. Whether in Europe, China or

even in America, most people ate most of their diet from 70%

carbohydrate sources without a lot of addition from oils and animal

products. Nutrition and activity levels changed profoundly in the

20th Century in first world countries. I would agree with you that

looking to the old traditions whether Italian or Chinese is always a

wise idea for both empirical reasons as well as for insights into the

congruence of modern research with traditional ideas of nutrition.

 

So having said this, the question we are both addressing is how to eat

in modern times. How would you change traditional nutrition to

address people who are not aerobic athletes or farmers on farms

without mechanization. I've seen studies that show Amish farmers have

caloric outputs that rival Lance Armstrong's during his Tours. One

way is to keep the traditional diet and become an aerobic athlete.

This is in part my own solution. Another solution is to pare down the

traditional diet to it's caloric essentials while optimizing

nutrients. Since 1900 our American population who are obese have

risen from around 4% to what ever is the current figure. It's safer

to say simply that over half of Americans area overweight. Our

primary healthcare proponents from the Surgeon General to the Director

of the Center for Disease Control have indicated years ago that

obesity is the most important healthcare issue.

 

So how will you propose to reduce calories while maintaining a diet of

mostly complex carbohydrates? Will you suggest walking, dancing or

other activities? How will you justify intentionally adding lipids or

animal products in any significant amounts?

 

This above is why your comments surprised me. I sense that overall we

may very well have some similar empirical practices. We basically

disagree about what is reliable science.

 

What unnerves me the most about undergraduate nutrition courses is

that they do not teach from the perspective basic or clinical

sciences. They teach the political protocols of the USDA's new

mult-Pyramid system. This is a bureaucratic compromise between the

competing interests of science (basic/clinical) and industry. I sense

that on this score we might see eye to eye.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

<snip>

> Every semester I have to present a rational discussion of these

> precise matters to my students regarding nutrition. The " pathetic

> research " reason to discount some science might be interesting for a

> single paper, but doesn't hold up with regard to hundreds of

> repeatable outcomes in a particular direction. If it's raining

> outside, we can not say that we don't believe it because one of the

> drops was not well formed. That's why there is peer-reviewed

> journals

 

Hi Emmanuel!

 

Peer-reviewed!

 

Are there *any* English language peer-reviewed journals? I wonder what

the criteria is to be a " peer " in TCM? I think I may have posted this

question before, if there were any answers I missed them.

 

Do you, or anyone, have the goods on this?

 

Regards,

 

Pete