Acupuncture Techniques [Re zi wu dao jiu Method]

August 27, 2005

On Aug 26, 2005, at 8:42 PM, wrote:

>

> See many useful data on AP Theory & Techniques at

> http://bodymindcures.com/

>

> Class 3 - Retention and Removal Techniques:

> http://bodymindcures.com/needle_3.pdf

>

As a student one of the many things that frustrates me is the lack of

consistency and subjectivity of TCM. I've been taught and it has

been discussed on this list that in general if Deficient shorter

retention, if excess longer retention. That intuitively makes sense

to me. However in the above link:

" 20-30 Minutes is ideal, but should be tempered to patient

Excess or Heat - less time

or possibly just insertion and removal in particular when bleeding point

Pain, Deficiency or Cold - longer time "

The MP3 on this site looks interesting. Thanks Phil.

Regards,

George

August 27, 2005

Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

--- < wrote:

> > Hi All, & Tom,

>

> Tom wrote:

> > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> technique called " zi wu

> > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> short explanation:

> >

> > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> and lifted gently,

> > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> succeeded by swift lifting

> > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> right. The procedure is

> > repeated several times and is used for treating

> sciatic pain "

I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

difficulty agreeing with it.

However this is a separate topic.

>

> > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> rotate the needle 360

> > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> of radicular

> > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> advance, Tom.

>

......

>

> Class 2 says:

>

> 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

the needle.

Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

digging.)

Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

Needle Song).

> Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> Cases:) Treat

> edema and Qi stagnation

> A) Insert needle until de qi

> B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> times

> C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> times

>

> I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> and Q keys are right

> next to each other on top left of keyboard).

>

> I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> " Midnight-Midday Path to

> Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> characters in that

> sequence.

>

> It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> Chinese Scholars on the

> list care to review the Google Hits at

> http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> summarise the data for us?

>

Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

the needle.

Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

digging.)

Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

Needle Song).

Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

Mike L.

August 27, 2005

Thank you Phil and Mike.

Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full 360

degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

supplementing respectively.

Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most are

not. Traditional vs. modern.

Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend on

the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the " 6

and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

Does this make sense?

Tom.

----

Mike Liaw

08/27/05 08:37:21

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

--- < wrote:

> > Hi All, & Tom,

>

> Tom wrote:

> > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> technique called " zi wu

> > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> short explanation:

> >

> > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> and lifted gently,

> > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> succeeded by swift lifting

> > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> right. The procedure is

> > repeated several times and is used for treating

> sciatic pain "

I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

difficulty agreeing with it.

However this is a separate topic.

>

> > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> rotate the needle 360

> > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> of radicular

> > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> advance, Tom.

>

..

>

> Class 2 says:

>

> 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

the needle.

Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

digging.)

Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

Needle Song).

> Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> Cases:) Treat

> edema and Qi stagnation

> A) Insert needle until de qi

> B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> times

> C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> times

>

> I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> and Q keys are right

> next to each other on top left of keyboard).

>

> I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> " Midnight-Midday Path to

> Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> characters in that

> sequence.

>

> It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> Chinese Scholars on the

> list care to review the Google Hits at

> http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> summarise the data for us?

>

Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

the needle.

Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

digging.)

Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

Needle Song).

Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

Mike L.

http://babel.altavista.com/

http://groups.

com and adjust accordingly.

August 27, 2005

Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

>

>Thank you Phil and Mike.

>

>Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full 360

>degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

>

>I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

>supplementing respectively.

>Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most are

>not. Traditional vs. modern.

>Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend on

>the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

> " 6

>and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

>Does this make sense?

>

>Tom.

>----

>

>Mike Liaw

>08/27/05 08:37:21

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

>Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

>

>--- < wrote:

>

> > > Hi All, & Tom,

> >

> > Tom wrote:

> > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> > technique called " zi wu

> > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> > short explanation:

> > >

> > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> > and lifted gently,

> > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> > succeeded by swift lifting

> > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> > right. The procedure is

> > > repeated several times and is used for treating

> > sciatic pain "

>

>I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

>translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

>difficulty agreeing with it.

>However this is a separate topic.

>

> >

> > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> > rotate the needle 360

> > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> > of radicular

> > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> > advance, Tom.

> >

>.

>

> >

> > Class 2 says:

> >

> > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

>

>Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

>As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

>is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

>the needle.

>Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

>digging.)

>Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

>The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

>to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

>

>This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

>Needle Song).

>

> > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> > Cases:) Treat

> > edema and Qi stagnation

> > A) Insert needle until de qi

> > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> > times

> > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> > times

> >

> > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> > and Q keys are right

> > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

> >

> > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> > " Midnight-Midday Path to

> > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> > characters in that

> > sequence.

> >

> > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> > Chinese Scholars on the

> > list care to review the Google Hits at

> > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> > summarise the data for us?

> >

>

>Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

>As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

>is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

>the needle.

>Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

>digging.)

>Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

>The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

>to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

>

>This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

>Needle Song).

>Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

>definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

>

>Mike L.

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

> http://groups.

>com and adjust accordingly.

>

>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

August 27, 2005

I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the ba gua

as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

Tom.

----

mike Bowser

08/27/05 15:05:14

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

>

>Thank you Phil and Mike.

>

>Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full 360

>degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

>

>I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

>supplementing respectively.

>Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most are

>not. Traditional vs. modern.

>Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend on

>the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

> " 6

>and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

>Does this make sense?

>

>Tom.

>----

>

>Mike Liaw

>08/27/05 08:37:21

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

>Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

>

>--- < wrote:

>

> > > Hi All, & Tom,

> >

> > Tom wrote:

> > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> > technique called " zi wu

> > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> > short explanation:

> > >

> > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> > and lifted gently,

> > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> > succeeded by swift lifting

> > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> > right. The procedure is

> > > repeated several times and is used for treating

> > sciatic pain "

>

>I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

>translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

>difficulty agreeing with it.

>However this is a separate topic.

>

> >

> > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> > rotate the needle 360

> > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> > of radicular

> > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> > advance, Tom.

> >

>.

>

> >

> > Class 2 says:

> >

> > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

>

>Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

>As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

>is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

>the needle.

>Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

>digging.)

>Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

>The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

>to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

>

>This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

>Needle Song).

>

> > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> > Cases:) Treat

> > edema and Qi stagnation

> > A) Insert needle until de qi

> > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> > times

> > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> > times

> >

> > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> > and Q keys are right

> > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

> >

> > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> > " Midnight-Midday Path to

> > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> > characters in that

> > sequence.

> >

> > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> > Chinese Scholars on the

> > list care to review the Google Hits at

> > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> > summarise the data for us?

> >

>

>Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

>As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

>is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

>the needle.

>Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

>digging.)

>Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

>The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

>to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

>

>This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

>Needle Song).

>Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

>definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

>

>Mike L.

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

> http://groups.

>com and adjust accordingly.

>

>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

August 27, 2005

i have refined a system of numerology over years with which one finds

parity between two persons [places, profession] with a number

lovers, enemies [not always the same thing, pardon the sequence]

city house state in which one practices, phase of life etc all have

numeric identities

everything has a number, such as your license number, or bank acct

number, or birth number, even the anniversary and birthday you forgot!

your birth number actually has a grid of 4 standard number with one more

which turns as the sand of time turn

in that sense, working with the needle:

6 is venusian healing, gentle, esoteric, intuitive

9 is martian healing, forceful, exoteric, intellectual

in that sense all numbers from 1 to 9 carry import and you could turn

the needle by that count and come up with 9 applications

by your birth number, you may tend to go venusian or martian and this

will be visible in your practice

if you think this is all somewhat untenable, try to apply the same

numeric wisdom, say, to the kissing of your lover

kiss him or her 6 times and this is venus

kiss him or her 9 time, and this is grounds for being put outdoors for

the night

dr holmes

Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

> I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the

> ba gua

> as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

>

> Tom.

>

> ----

>

> mike Bowser

> 08/27/05 15:05:14

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

> Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

> >

> >Thank you Phil and Mike.

> >

> >Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a

> full 360

> >degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

> >

> >I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

> >supplementing respectively.

> >Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions,

> most are

> >not. Traditional vs. modern.

> >Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well

> depend on

> >the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

> > " 6

> >and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

> >Does this make sense?

> >

> >Tom.

> >----

> >

> >Mike Liaw

> >08/27/05 08:37:21

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >

> >Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

> >

> >--- < wrote:

> >

> > > > Hi All, & Tom,

> > >

> > > Tom wrote:

> > > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> > > technique called " zi wu

> > > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> > > short explanation:

> > > >

> > > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> > > and lifted gently,

> > > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> > > succeeded by swift lifting

> > > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> > > right. The procedure is

> > > > repeated several times and is used for treating

> > > sciatic pain "

> >

> >I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

> >translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

> >difficulty agreeing with it.

> >However this is a separate topic.

> >

> > >

> > > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> > > rotate the needle 360

> > > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> > > of radicular

> > > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> > > advance, Tom.

> > >

> >.

> >

> > >

> > > Class 2 says:

> > >

> > > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >

> > > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> > > Cases:) Treat

> > > edema and Qi stagnation

> > > A) Insert needle until de qi

> > > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> > > times

> > > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> > > times

> > >

> > > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> > > and Q keys are right

> > > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

> > >

> > > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> > > " Midnight-Midday Path to

> > > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> > > characters in that

> > > sequence.

> > >

> > > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> > > Chinese Scholars on the

> > > list care to review the Google Hits at

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> > > summarise the data for us?

> > >

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

> >definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

> >

> >Mike L.

> >

August 27, 2005

a word more:

this is not gender oriented as it would seem:

> 6 is venusian healing, gentle, esoteric, intuitive

> 9 is martian healing, forceful, exoteric, intellectual

i have seen many a woman healer turn the 9, and many a sensitive man

stay with the venus 6, far more sensitively than a woman ever could

more than this, and i will invoke the 5th

holmes

holmes wrote:

> i have refined a system of numerology over years with which one finds

> parity between two persons [places, profession] with a number

>

> lovers, enemies [not always the same thing, pardon the sequence]

> city house state in which one practices, phase of life etc all have

> numeric identities

>

> everything has a number, such as your license number, or bank acct

> number, or birth number, even the anniversary and birthday you forgot!

>

> your birth number actually has a grid of 4 standard number with one more

> which turns as the sand of time turn

>

> in that sense, working with the needle:

>

> 6 is venusian healing, gentle, esoteric, intuitive

> 9 is martian healing, forceful, exoteric, intellectual

>

> in that sense all numbers from 1 to 9 carry import and you could turn

> the needle by that count and come up with 9 applications

>

> by your birth number, you may tend to go venusian or martian and this

> will be visible in your practice

>

> if you think this is all somewhat untenable, try to apply the same

> numeric wisdom, say, to the kissing of your lover

>

> kiss him or her 6 times and this is venus

> kiss him or her 9 time, and this is grounds for being put outdoors for

> the night

>

> dr holmes

>

> Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

> > I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the

> > ba gua

> > as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

> >

> > Tom.

> >

> > ----

> >

> > mike Bowser

> > 08/27/05 15:05:14

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >

> > Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

> >

> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

> > > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

> > >Chinese Medicine

> > ><Chinese Medicine >

> > >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> > >Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

> > >

> > >Thank you Phil and Mike.

> > >

> > >Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a

> > full 360

> > >degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

> > >

> > >I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

> > >supplementing respectively.

> > >Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions,

> > most are

> > >not. Traditional vs. modern.

> > >Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well

> > depend on

> > >the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light,

> following the

> > > " 6

> > >and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain

> goal.

> > >Does this make sense?

> > >

> > >Tom.

> > >----

> > >

> > >Mike Liaw

> > >08/27/05 08:37:21

> > >Chinese Medicine

> > >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> > >

> > >Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

> > >

August 27, 2005

I knew someone will get to this " different " topic:-)

The reason I chose not to dive into it was that there has been conflicting

interpretations of the ancient techniques. And I myself have used different

tehchniques, sometimes faithfully following one type of interpretation and some

other times went totally the opposite way; in either case, I am able to bring

about the effect of Bu or Xie (another thing that I choose not to debate about,

the translation of these two key words) as long as I direct the Qi properly.

With that, here's my brief response:

- Q: " if the rotation of the needle is a full 360 degrees? "

R: Not to my knowledge -- it doesn't really matter to me.

- Q: 6 for draining, 9 for supplementing?

R: These two key numbers initially came from Yi Jing (broad sense Yi Jing,

with Confucious

attached notes). 9 is a Yang number; 6 is a Yin number. Evolving over

700~800 years till

Ming Dynasty when Golden Needle Song (Jin Zhen Fu) was composed, these

two

numbers came to mean Bu, and Xie, respectively. The only thing I keep in

mind is to

Bu or to Xie; 6 or 9 are just too small a number for actual application

to me.

Dr. Holmes mentioned 9 possibly came from Ba Gua (8 trigram) and Tom said it's

not true

because Ba Gua has 8 (trigrams). Well, there is some thing called Jiu Gong (9

palaces) associated with Ba Gua, where each Gua is associated with one

Palace(which is associated

with one number) and the Middle Palace (the space surrounded by Ba Gua) is

assocated with Kun (mother earth). So, to say 9 is associated with Ba Gua is

not off at all. (However, this is yet a different topic:-) This reminds me of

the title " The web that has no weaver. " )

Mike L.

Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom wrote:

Thank you Phil and Mike.

Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full 360

degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

supplementing respectively.

Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most are

not. Traditional vs. modern.

Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend on

the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the " 6

and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

Does this make sense?

Tom.

Start your day with - make it your home page

August 27, 2005

The common denominator behind these numbers (six and nine) is the number

three. Nine is three repetitions of three, six is two. As odd numbers are

considered yang and even numbers yin, nine is yang (really, yang within

yang) while six is yin (at least, yin within yang). The detail everyone gets

confused over is the overlap between the numbers two and three. Most

understand that two represents yin and yang, but the confusion comes from

the fact that Taoists were trying to point out that yin and yang are mated

together and that their union was itself a factor (or force) that is neither

yin nor yang while never absent from the two. In other words, everything is

not just made of yin and yang, but yin, yang AND their integration. This is

known as a Three-In-One. All is a Three-In-One. That is what Lao Tzu was

referring to in the Tao Teh Ching when he said'

" From the Nothingness of Tao comes the One,

From the One comes the Two,

From the Two Come the Three,

From the Three comes the myriad (infinite) things. "

This is a very important quote from the Tao Teh Ching. It is the only

chapter that references numbers and it clearly shows that Taoists considered

the number three the common denominator in material life; " From the Three

comes the myriad things. " The " Two " , the " One " and the " Nothingness of Tao "

relate to the non-material aka " Pre-Heaven " stage. While they are more

essential even than the " Three " , they are essential unknowable. " The Tao

that can be spoken of is not the true Tao. "

Again, the confusion comes between weather or not different sources chose to

designate the non-yin/yang, integrating third force. All of the different

numbering systems used in Chinese medicine spring from the numbers two or

three which themselves are just different ways of designating yin and yang.

Ever wonder why so many sacred Chinese books are organized into 81 chapters?

That number is three cubed and it designates all possible angles or

dimensions of three just like the four quadrants of space encompass all of

space.

Once one gets a grounding in the basic philosophy behind Taoist numerology,

you understand where all the other numbers come from; the Five Phases, the

Ba-Gua, the 10 Stems and 12 Branches. etc. They all came from ancient

astronomy - a subject absolutely essential to understanding the foundations

of Chinese medical theory.

I gave one short talk on Taoist numerology a few years ago and would like to

teach more on this subject if there is an interest. It is kind of heavy

philosophy, but anyone curious about the foundation of Chinese medical

theories should find the subject of interest.

Matt Bauer

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

Saturday, August 27, 2005 6:04 AM

Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>> " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

>>Chinese Medicine

>><Chinese Medicine >

>>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

>>

>>Thank you Phil and Mike.

>>

>>Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full

>>360

>>degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

>>

>>I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

>>supplementing respectively.

>>Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most

>>are

>>not. Traditional vs. modern.

>>Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend on

>>the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

>> " 6

>>and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

>>Does this make sense?

>>

>>Tom.

>>----

>>

>>Mike Liaw

>>08/27/05 08:37:21

>>Chinese Medicine

>>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>>

>>Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

>>

>>--- < wrote:

>>

>> > > Hi All, & Tom,

>> >

>> > Tom wrote:

>> > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

>> > technique called " zi wu

>> > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

>> > short explanation:

>> > >

>> > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

>> > and lifted gently,

>> > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

>> > succeeded by swift lifting

>> > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

>> > right. The procedure is

>> > > repeated several times and is used for treating

>> > sciatic pain "

>>

>>I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

>>translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

>>difficulty agreeing with it.

>>However this is a separate topic.

>>

>> >

>> > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

>> > rotate the needle 360

>> > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

>> > of radicular

>> > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

>> > advance, Tom.

>> >

>>.

>>

>> >

>> > Class 2 says:

>> >

>> > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

>>

>>Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

>>As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

>>is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

>>the needle.

>>Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

>>digging.)

>>Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

>>The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

>>to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

>>

>>This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

>>Needle Song).

>>

>> > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

>> > Cases:) Treat

>> > edema and Qi stagnation

>> > A) Insert needle until de qi

>> > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

>> > times

>> > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

>> > times

>> >

>> > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

>> > and Q keys are right

>> > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

>> >

>> > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

>> > " Midnight-Midday Path to

>> > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

>> > characters in that

>> > sequence.

>> >

>> > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

>> > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

>> > Chinese Scholars on the

>> > list care to review the Google Hits at

>> > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

>> > summarise the data for us?

>> >

>>

>>Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

>>As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

>>is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

>>the needle.

>>Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

>>digging.)

>>Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

>>The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

>>to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

>>

>>This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

>>Needle Song).

>>Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

>>definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

>>

>>Mike L.

>>

>>http://babel.altavista.com/

>>

>> http://groups.

>>com and adjust accordingly.

>>

>>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>>requires prior permission from the author.

>>

August 27, 2005

Tom,

I thought the number nine was in the center as the pairs of opposites always

add up to this number.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:25:49 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

>

> I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the ba

>gua

>as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

>

>Tom.

>

>----

>

>mike Bowser

>08/27/05 15:05:14

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

>Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

>

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

> >

> >Thank you Phil and Mike.

> >

> >Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full

>360

> >degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

> >

> >I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

> >supplementing respectively.

> >Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most

>are

> >not. Traditional vs. modern.

> >Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend

>on

> >the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

> > " 6

> >and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

> >Does this make sense?

> >

> >Tom.

> >----

> >

> >Mike Liaw

> >08/27/05 08:37:21

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >

> >Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

> >

> >--- < wrote:

> >

> > > > Hi All, & Tom,

> > >

> > > Tom wrote:

> > > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> > > technique called " zi wu

> > > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> > > short explanation:

> > > >

> > > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> > > and lifted gently,

> > > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> > > succeeded by swift lifting

> > > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> > > right. The procedure is

> > > > repeated several times and is used for treating

> > > sciatic pain "

> >

> >I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

> >translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

> >difficulty agreeing with it.

> >However this is a separate topic.

> >

> > >

> > > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> > > rotate the needle 360

> > > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> > > of radicular

> > > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> > > advance, Tom.

> > >

> >.

> >

> > >

> > > Class 2 says:

> > >

> > > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >

> > > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> > > Cases:) Treat

> > > edema and Qi stagnation

> > > A) Insert needle until de qi

> > > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> > > times

> > > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> > > times

> > >

> > > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> > > and Q keys are right

> > > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

> > >

> > > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> > > " Midnight-Midday Path to

> > > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> > > characters in that

> > > sequence.

> > >

> > > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> > > Chinese Scholars on the

> > > list care to review the Google Hits at

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> > > summarise the data for us?

> > >

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

> >definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

> >

> >Mike L.

> >

> >http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

> > http://groups.

> >com and adjust accordingly.

> >

> >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

>group

> >requires prior permission from the author.

> >

August 28, 2005

Do you mean the Magical Square, or Lo Shu, like they use in Feng Shui? The

number nine isn't in the center of the Lo Shu; the sum of each row, line or

diagonal is always, magically, fifteen.

Or do you mean another ba gua square I don't know yet, Mike?

Tom.

----

mike Bowser

08/28/05 00:41:51

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

Tom,

I thought the number nine was in the center as the pairs of opposites always

add up to this number.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:25:49 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

>

> I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the ba

>gua

>as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

>

>Tom.

>

>----

>

>mike Bowser

>08/27/05 15:05:14

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

>Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

>

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

> >

> >Thank you Phil and Mike.

> >

> >Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full

>360

> >degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

> >

> >I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

> >supplementing respectively.

> >Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most

>are

> >not. Traditional vs. modern.

> >Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend

>on

> >the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

> > " 6

> >and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

> >Does this make sense?

> >

> >Tom.

> >----

> >

> >Mike Liaw

> >08/27/05 08:37:21

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >

> >Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

> >

> >--- < wrote:

> >

> > > > Hi All, & Tom,

> > >

> > > Tom wrote:

> > > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> > > technique called " zi wu

> > > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> > > short explanation:

> > > >

> > > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> > > and lifted gently,

> > > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> > > succeeded by swift lifting

> > > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> > > right. The procedure is

> > > > repeated several times and is used for treating

> > > sciatic pain "

> >

> >I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

> >translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

> >difficulty agreeing with it.

> >However this is a separate topic.

> >

> > >

> > > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> > > rotate the needle 360

> > > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> > > of radicular

> > > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> > > advance, Tom.

> > >

> >.

> >

> > >

> > > Class 2 says:

> > >

> > > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >

> > > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> > > Cases:) Treat

> > > edema and Qi stagnation

> > > A) Insert needle until de qi

> > > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> > > times

> > > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> > > times

> > >

> > > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> > > and Q keys are right

> > > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

> > >

> > > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> > > " Midnight-Midday Path to

> > > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> > > characters in that

> > > sequence.

> > >

> > > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> > > Chinese Scholars on the

> > > list care to review the Google Hits at

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> > > summarise the data for us?

> > >

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

> >definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

> >

> >Mike L.

> >

> >http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

> > http://groups.

> >com and adjust accordingly.

> >

> >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

>group

> >requires prior permission from the author.

> >

August 28, 2005

Tom,

What you said of Magical Square is completely correct.

In my last message I simply didn't associate a number with each location of the

9 Palaces.

I was focusing on clarifying where the 9 (count) came from, but not where the 9

(numeral) is associated with. Sorry about the confusion.

Mike L.

Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom wrote:

Do you mean the Magical Square, or Lo Shu, like they use in Feng Shui? The

number nine isn't in the center of the Lo Shu; the sum of each row, line or

diagonal is always, magically, fifteen.

Or do you mean another ba gua square I don't know yet, Mike?

Tom.

----

mike Bowser

08/28/05 00:41:51

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

Tom,

I thought the number nine was in the center as the pairs of opposites always

add up to this number.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:25:49 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

>

> I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the ba

>gua

>as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

>

>Tom.

>

>----

>

>mike Bowser

>08/27/05 15:05:14

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

>Aren't these numbers related to the ba gua and have additional meanings?

>

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:56:20 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

> >

> >Thank you Phil and Mike.

> >

> >Mike, or others, would you know if the rotation of the needle is a full

>360

> >degrees? Is it a fast procedure?

> >

> >I think the " 6 " and " 9 " rotations mentioned are for draining and

> >supplementing respectively.

> >Some Chinese doctors are very strict to follow these instructions, most

>are

> >not. Traditional vs. modern.

> >Some have argued that effectiveness of acupuncture may very well depend

>on

> >the intention and focus of the practitioner. In this light, following the

> > " 6

> >and " 9 " may be a way to clearly focus one's intention to a certain goal.

> >Does this make sense?

> >

> >Tom.

> >----

> >

> >Mike Liaw

> >08/27/05 08:37:21

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >

> >Hi Phil, Tom, et al,

> >

> >--- < wrote:

> >

> > > > Hi All, & Tom,

> > >

> > > Tom wrote:

> > > > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation

> > > technique called " zi wu

> > > > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this

> > > short explanation:

> > > >

> > > > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly

> > > and lifted gently,

> > > > then rotated to the left nine times. This is

> > > succeeded by swift lifting

> > > > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the

> > > right. The procedure is

> > > > repeated several times and is used for treating

> > > sciatic pain "

> >

> >I am not sure if the " 9 " and " 6 " actions here were

> >translated or interpreted by the writer, but I have

> >difficulty agreeing with it.

> >However this is a separate topic.

> >

> > >

> > > > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one

> > > rotate the needle 360

> > > > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment

> > > of radicular

> > > > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in

> > > advance, Tom.

> > >

> >.

> >

> > >

> > > Class 2 says:

> > >

> > > 5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appears in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >

> > > Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe

> > > Cases:) Treat

> > > edema and Qi stagnation

> > > A) Insert needle until de qi

> > > B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9

> > > times

> > > C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6

> > > times

> > >

> > > I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W

> > > and Q keys are right

> > > next to each other on top left of keyboard).

> > >

> > > I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È =

> > > " Midnight-Midday Path to

> > > Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi

> > > characters in that

> > > sequence.

> > >

> > > It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would

> > > Chinese Scholars on the

> > > list care to review the Google Hits at

> > > http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

> > > summarise the data for us?

> > >

> >

> >Yes, it should be Zi-Wu.

> >As many of you know, Zi is 11:00PM ~ 1:00AM whereas Wu

> >is 11:00AM~ 1:00PM. However, they simply mean rotating

> >the needle.

> >Dao means to stroke (which is some ways can be seen as

> >digging.)

> >Jiu is a stone-made utensil in which grains are put.

> >The action of (using a baseball bat-like wooden tool)

> >to stroke on the grains is called Dao Jiu.

> >

> >This tehchnique first appeared in Jin Zhen Fu (Golden

> >Needle Song).

> >Sorry, I forgot what year it was printed but it's

> >definitely before Zhen Jiu Da Cheng.

> >

> >Mike L.

> >

> >http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

> > http://groups.

> >com and adjust accordingly.

> >

> >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

>group

> >requires prior permission from the author.

> >

August 28, 2005

not 15, but 6, as in 1+5=6

each row of 3 numbers = 6 so that this is an ever powerful enunciation

of the type of healing energy one is invoking

fun part is if one wanted to go the other way and cause an unhealing,

one also takes to the venus particle

holmes

Tom Verhaeghe wrote:

> Do you mean the Magical Square, or Lo Shu, like they use in Feng Shui? The

> number nine isn't in the center of the Lo Shu; the sum of each row, line or

> diagonal is always, magically, fifteen.

>

> Or do you mean another ba gua square I don't know yet, Mike?

>

> Tom.

> ----

>

> mike Bowser

> 08/28/05 00:41:51

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

>

> Tom,

>

> I thought the number nine was in the center as the pairs of opposites

> always

> add up to this number.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> > " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> >Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:25:49 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

> >

> > I guess there is numerology behind it, but I doubt it stems from the ba

> >gua

> >as there are only eight (ba) trigrams, not nine.

> >

> >Tom.

> >

>

August 29, 2005

Tom wrote:

> has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation technique called " zi wu

> dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this short explanation:

>

> " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly and lifted gently,

> then rotated to the left nine times. This is succeeded by swift lifting

> and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the right. The procedure is

> repeated several times and is used for treating sciatic pain "

> Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one rotate the needle 360

> degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment of radicular

> sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in advance, Tom.

Tom

Was this original article in English or Chinese?

If Chinese can you send me a copy as one of the tutors would like to have a look

before commenting

Heiko Lade

M.H.Sc.(TCM)

Lecturer and clinic supervisor

Auckland College of Natural Medicine

Website: www.acnm.co.nz

-

Chinese Medicine ;

Cc: PVA-L ; Pa-l

Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:42 PM

Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

> Hi All, & Tom,

Tom wrote:

> has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation technique called " zi wu

> dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this short explanation:

>

> " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly and lifted gently,

> then rotated to the left nine times. This is succeeded by swift lifting

> and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the right. The procedure is

> repeated several times and is used for treating sciatic pain "

> Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one rotate the needle 360

> degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment of radicular

> sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in advance, Tom.

See many useful data on AP Theory & Techniques at

http://bodymindcures.com/

Class 1 - Introduction to Needling:

http://bodymindcures.com/needle_1.pdf

Class 2 - Needling Techniques:

http://bodymindcures.com/needle_2.pdf

Class 3 - Retention and Removal Techniques:

http://bodymindcures.com/needle_3.pdf

Class 4 - Precautions and Contraindications

http://bodymindcures.com/needle_4.pdf

Class 2 says:

5. Zi-Qu Dao-Jiu (Midnight & noon hole dig)

Mixed excess and deficiency at same time (Severe Cases:) Treat

edema and Qi stagnation

A) Insert needle until de qi

B) Strong thrust and gentle lift full space to qi 9 times

C) Gentle thrust and strong lift full space to qi 6 times

I reckon that " Zi-Qu " is a TYPO for " Zi-Wu " [the W and Q keys are right

next to each other on top left of keyboard).

I reckon that Zi-wu-Dao-jiu ×ÓÎçµÀ¾È = " Midnight-Midday Path to

Rescue " but Google has NO example of all four Hanzi characters in that

sequence.

It has the first THREE [Zi-wu-Dao ×ÓÎçµÀ]. See:

http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 [in Chinese]. Would Chinese Scholars on the

list care to review the Google Hits at http://tinyurl.com/8wvu5 and

summarise the data for us?

7. Zi-Wu Liu-Zhu

(Open and Closed Points of Lunar Calendar)

Lunar Calendar (See Chart)

Sedate - If point punctured just before open

Tonify - If point punctured just after open time

I reckon that Zi-Wu Liu-Zhu ×ÓÎçÁ÷×¢ = Midnight-Midday Flow (Current,

Cycle).

See: http://tinyurl.com/7juc6 [in Chinese]. Would Chinese Scholars on

the list care to review the Google Hits at http://tinyurl.com/7juc6 and

summarise the data for us?

Best regards,

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

August 30, 2005

Heiko, this specific article is in English. Would you still like me to

send it to you?

Tom.

, " Heiko Lade "

<heikolade.acnm@x> wrote:

> Tom wrote:

> > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation technique called " zi wu

> > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this short explanation:

> >

> > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly and lifted gently,

> > then rotated to the left nine times. This is succeeded by swift

lifting

> > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the right. The procedure is

> > repeated several times and is used for treating sciatic pain "

>

> > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one rotate the needle 360

> > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment of radicular

> > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in advance, Tom.

>

> Tom

>

> Was this original article in English or Chinese?

> If Chinese can you send me a copy as one of the tutors would like to

have a look before commenting

>

> Heiko Lade

> M.H.Sc.(TCM)

> Lecturer and clinic supervisor

> Auckland College of Natural Medicine

> Website: www.acnm.co.nz

August 30, 2005

57 % if fibromylagia patients respond to placebo,

From ARTHRITIS & RHEUMATISM Research News Alerts

A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial of

Pramipexole, a Dopamine Agonist, in Patients With Fibromyaglia Receiving

Concomitant Medications

Posted 08/25/2005

Andrew J. Holman and Robin R. Myers

New Study Finds Improvement of Fibromyalgia Symptoms WithFew Side

Effects

The mechanism of fibromyalgia, a chronic illness characterized by

muscle pain, fatigue, and sleep disturbances, is unknown and medications used to

treat it (such as antidepressants, antiepileptics, muscle relaxants,

antiinflammatories, sedative hypnotics, pain relievers and nutriceuticals) have

had limited success. New research findings indicate that the pain associated

with this disease may be due to abnormal sensory processing in the central

nervous system.

Recently, researchers from Pacific Rheumatology Associates in

Renton, Washington set out to investigate whether the dopamine receptor agonist

pramipexole was safe and effective in treating fibromyalgia. Normally used to

treat Parkinson's disease, this drug stimulates dopamine (a neurotransmitter)

production by binding to dopamine receptor sites and is thought to inhibit

sensory nerve-mediated responses. This is the first trial of pramipexole and

only the second trial for this type of dopamine receptor agonist for the

treatment of fibromyalgia. The findings are published in the August 2005 issue

of Arthritis & Rheumatism (http://www.interscience.wiley.com/journal/arthritis).

The study was a single-center, double-blind, placebo-controlled

trial involving 60 patients with fibromyalgia who were randomly selected in a

2:1 ratio to receive either pramipexole or a placebo every evening for 14 weeks.

The dosage for those receiving the drug was increased weekly, starting at 0.25

mg the first week and ending at 4.5 mg for the last three weeks; it was then

tapered to 0 mg during week 15. Because fibromyalgia patients often take a

variety of medications, participants were allowed to continue these as long as

the dosage had been stable for at least 6 weeks prior to the beginning of the

study. A total of 49 patients completed the study due to a variety of reasons,

the most common of which was violating protocol by starting a new medication

during the study period. None withdrew because of side effects.

The pramipexole group noted significantly decreased pain compared to

the placebo group at the end of the study: at least a 50% decrease in pain was

achieved by 42% of this group compared with 14% of the placebo group, as

measured by the pain score on the visual analog scale (VAS). Overall, 82% of the

patients taking pramipexole noted some improvement in pain, compared with 57% of

the placebo group. In addition, other scales measuring fibromyalgia symptoms and

mental status showed an improve

Oakland, CA 94609

August 30, 2005

On Aug 30, 2005, at 3:52 PM, wrote:

> 57 % if fibromylagia patients respond to placebo,

Probably the same amount of patients who suffer from Liver Qi

stagnation type fibromyalgia.

I think that if the mind can cause stress, the mind can fix it too.

--

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

August 30, 2005

Tom

Yes if you could send it would be great.

PO Box 17-467

Greenlane 1130

Auckland

New Zealand

My principle is interested in this article and technique.

regards

Heiko Lade

M.H.Sc.(TCM)

Lecturer and clinic supervisor

Auckland College of Natural Medicine

Website: www.acnm.co.nz

-

Tom Verhaeghe

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:55 AM

Re: Acupuncture Techniques [Re " zi wu dao jiu " Method]

Heiko, this specific article is in English. Would you still like me to

send it to you?

Tom.

, " Heiko Lade "

<heikolade.acnm@x> wrote:

> Tom wrote:

> > has anyone ever heard of a needle manipulation technique called " zi wu

> > dao jiu " ? I only have a pinyin reference, and this short explanation:

> >

> > " After insertion, the needle is thrusted swiftly and lifted gently,

> > then rotated to the left nine times. This is succeeded by swift

lifting

> > and gentle thrust, then six rotations to the right. The procedure is

> > repeated several times and is used for treating sciatic pain "

>

> > Does one thrust and lift only one time? Does one rotate the needle 360

> > degrees? Taken from " Essentials for AP treatment of radicular

> > sciatica " , Journal of TCM, 2003, p. 237. Thanks in advance, Tom.

>

> Tom

>

> Was this original article in English or Chinese?

> If Chinese can you send me a copy as one of the tutors would like to

have a look before commenting

>

> Heiko Lade

> M.H.Sc.(TCM)

> Lecturer and clinic supervisor

> Auckland College of Natural Medicine

> Website: www.acnm.co.nz

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

August 30, 2005