Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Hi Phil, Westerners in general do not like to feel " anything " during an acupuncture treatment.I think this is why shallow japanese styles are so popular in the west.I have also trained in japanese meridian therapy extensively, outstanding results are possible. PAIN is a whole subject in itself, many westerners feel any sensation and call it pain.They CAN and at times should be educated to receive strong sensations.It is a matter of familiarity.If treatments start really gentle,gradually stronger sensations such as fasiculation,strong de qi and other sensations are readily accepted by patients.It is never advisable to go straight for strong sensations but instead build intensity slowly but surely during a " series " of treatments.This way when required patients not only accept strong sensations but actually stop reacting and become a focused " guide " to what is happening during the treatment,they have to become involved IMO.This approach leads to a stronger self awareness by the patient and I have noticed that their overall strength and vitality gets stronger and stronger. There are many instances where a patients body does not respond to stimulation as I would expect, such as fibromyalgia or a generalised muscular dysfunction,after teaching the patient " HOW " to guide me and what to " feel " responses do change dramatically over time.This is especially important for chronic dysfunction where th qi,blood,muscle tissue and especially the fascia is in a state of dysfunction due to chronic poor health.People with these problems often seek acupuncture treatment. IMO we should know how to treat at different levels with different tools according to the condition in front of us.Some need and do well with a gentle approach,especially emotional problems others with chronic problems or serious pain need stronger treatment and guidance.We often have to decide wether to give them what they want or what they need. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil Rogers Tuesday, 23 August 2005 8:48 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Amaro responds to needle depth Hi John & All, I agree that one need not stimulate acupoints strongly, or get powerful Deqi, to get excellent results. I also agree that AP Tx should be as gentle and pain-free as possible, and that for many western patients, attempts to elicit strong Deqi can greatly increase the incidence of needle-shock. During the 11 years before my visit to Taiwan in 1985, I had few cases of needle-shock. During that visit, I was told that it was very important to elicit strong Deqi. So, when I returned home, I stepped up my needling to get strong Deqi. I learned a hard lesson! Irish patients do not tolerate strong Deqi well. I had more needle-shock in the first few weeks after my return than I had in the previous 11 years! So I reverted to a gentle needling method, eliciting minimal Deqi. I still do that today. I also agree with John on the importance of selecting the correct point(s) and allowing one's Qi energy to emanate through the needle and expecting the quick, vibrant, healing for which acupuncture is famous. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Amaro wrote: > I have needled GB21 probably daily for 34 years. This point is ranked > by me as one of the highlight acupoints on the body for a host of > conditions. I cannot say I've experienced a patient fainting more > from this point than any other specific point. As most of us are > aware, the reason a person faints with the administration of a slender > acupuncture needle is purely emotional. If however the fainting is due > to extreme trauma to an anatomical area of the body, it would appear > that application would be considered malpractice. > > Having been trained in nine different Asian nations, I fortunately > discovered years ago, It was not the depth of the needle which was > significant as it was the alloy and structure of the handle, as the > needle would produce both a mechanical effect as well as an electro > magnetic one. It appears it totally depends where and by who one was > trained as to the administration of needles. Those that perform deep > needle insertion will often raise an eyebrow to those who are > utilizing extremely superficial stimulation and often vice versa. The > fact of the matter is they both are very effective. My point of view > is why stimulate deeply and risk tissue trauma and fainting when the > patient can achieve stellar clinical response with the proper point > selection and minimal stimulation. In the 21st Century contemporary > patient, pain is a major factor which should be eliminated from > treatment as much as possible. Teh Chi can be achieved without extreme depth of > penetration. It has been empirically shown that both non-invasive > laser and electronic stimulation can produce dramatic clinical > response. We must remember, the ancients did not have the advantage > of electricity as that is a brand new discovery in the time frame of > acupuncture application. The same is obviously true of laser. My > recommendation, try a much more superficial approach to GB 21, allow > your Qi energy to emanate through the needle and expect the quick, > vibrant, healing which acupuncture is famous for. The main factor is > to select the proper acupoint with extreme accuracy. John A. Amaro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 ---- ray ford 08/23/05 14:25:24 Chinese Medicine RE: Resonse to Phil Westerners in general do not like to feel " anything " during an acupuncture treatment.I think this is why shallow japanese styles are so popular in the west. (Tom)I don't have very much experience with Japanese acupuncture styles, but I do not heed strong deqi because I think my patients would not like to feel anything. I tell them what they can expect. Sometimes patients will almost jump of the bed, for example when treating sciatic pain (after needling Weizhong or Huantiao). They laughingly say I torture them, but they do come back when treatment is working. It's all being done in a pleasant atmosphere. I guess our own attitude as a practitioner is important: if we are afraid to hurt people, they will notice. I tell them that a little soreness, or distention, feeling of warmth, or an electrical feeling is all normal. A good massage also hurts a bit, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Tom, Sorry but I don't understand.If you do not elicit strong de qi,why are some of your patients jumping off the table?Also the " jumping " is a clear sign that they are NOT accepting the treatment as it is too strong for them. Ray ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe Tuesday, 23 August 2005 10:54 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Resonse to Phil ---- ray ford 08/23/05 14:25:24 Chinese Medicine RE: Resonse to Phil Westerners in general do not like to feel " anything " during an acupuncture treatment.I think this is why shallow japanese styles are so popular in the west. (Tom)I don't have very much experience with Japanese acupuncture styles, but I do not heed strong deqi because I think my patients would not like to feel anything. I tell them what they can expect. Sometimes patients will almost jump of the bed, for example when treating sciatic pain (after needling Weizhong or Huantiao). They laughingly say I torture them, but they do come back when treatment is working. It's all being done in a pleasant atmosphere. I guess our own attitude as a practitioner is important: if we are afraid to hurt people, they will notice. I tell them that a little soreness, or distention, feeling of warmth, or an electrical feeling is all normal. A good massage also hurts a bit, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Maybe I wasn't clear: I do elicit strong deqi. I tell them about this. I have found that no deqi with e.g. sciatic pain will get poor results. When they jump I am getting a good deqi and the result is better. Of course people have differences: some jump immediately and other only do after long and strong stimulation. Until now, people that jumped up as if they were struck by lightning happily come back for treatment because the result was there. I was taught in China that certain points ask for a strong deqi in certain conditions (Hegu, Weizhong, Huantiao for sciatic pain; Laogong for certain dermatological complaints,...) I guess it's just a different style of practicing, and patients get accustomed to this style? For example , I never tell anyone that AP is a painless experience. I'm hesitant to make any generalizations, but couldn't it be that the painless AP experience is more an American concern? My patients don't expect it to be free of pain... What makes you think that the jumping is a sign that they cannot accept the treatment? Most people can feel qi moving down or up the leg at the time, and they feel instant relief. Regards, Tom. ---- ray ford 08/24/05 00:28:09 Chinese Medicine RE: Resonse to Phil Tom, Sorry but I don't understand.If you do not elicit strong de qi,why are some of your patients jumping off the table?Also the " jumping " is a clear sign that they are NOT accepting the treatment as it is too strong for them. Ray ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Tom, Jumping is secondary to speaking.Many of my patients do jump but if I encourage them to " speak " to observe and tell me as the sensations are reaching their personal limits a more concentrated form of de qi takes place and their ability to be more detached and open to the weird but powerful sensation increases.Jumping alone is a " shock " to the qi and should be avoided as much as possible as shock consumes qi. I think a good analogy is yoga.If someone stops the minute they feel a burning restriction during a posture and come out of it instantly they will improve the situation very very slowly.If on the other hand they stay with the discomfort and hold to their maximum tolerance or close to it at least,THEN the mucles,blood and qi start to move,causing sweating,burning sensations and general discomfort BUT a " new " level of tolerance will be reached quickly and progress is made.Each person has their own tolerance,care must be taken but IMO working outside the comfort zone is the key. Ray ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Tom Verhaeghe Wednesday, 24 August 2005 3:01 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Resonse to Phil Maybe I wasn't clear: I do elicit strong deqi. I tell them about this. I have found that no deqi with e.g. sciatic pain will get poor results. When they jump I am getting a good deqi and the result is better. Of course people have differences: some jump immediately and other only do after long and strong stimulation. Until now, people that jumped up as if they were struck by lightning happily come back for treatment because the result was there. I was taught in China that certain points ask for a strong deqi in certain conditions (Hegu, Weizhong, Huantiao for sciatic pain; Laogong for certain dermatological complaints,...) I guess it's just a different style of practicing, and patients get accustomed to this style? For example , I never tell anyone that AP is a painless experience. I'm hesitant to make any generalizations, but couldn't it be that the painless AP experience is more an American concern? My patients don't expect it to be free of pain... What makes you think that the jumping is a sign that they cannot accept the treatment? Most people can feel qi moving down or up the leg at the time, and they feel instant relief. Regards, Tom. ---- ray ford 08/24/05 00:28:09 Chinese Medicine RE: Resonse to Phil Tom, Sorry but I don't understand.If you do not elicit strong de qi,why are some of your patients jumping off the table?Also the " jumping " is a clear sign that they are NOT accepting the treatment as it is too strong for them. Ray ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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