Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 My point of view is why stimulate deeply and risk tissue trauma and fainting when the patient can achieve stellar clinical response with the proper point selection and minimal stimulation. >>>>> Because tissue trauma is sometimes what is needed, while not usually at GB-21. I have used both Japanese and what i like to call anatomical based needle techniques for over 20 years as well. There is no way you can tell me that in all conditions you can get the same results with light needling as say with strong periosteal-ligametous stimulation. You will never convinced me that you can stabilize a vertebral segment with light needling, if you can i would like to see stress xrays. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Dear Alon: I don't believe there is ever a situation where " all " conditions can achieve the same results with any procedure. It is imperative as I am sure you will agree, to be versatile in treatment. To use deep needling when necessary and light when that is appropriate. Incidentally, you may recall the entire conversation did in fact center around needling GB-21 which I am pleased to see you freely admit the creation of tissue trauma is not " usually " done at GB-21. I am not sure exactly where or why you have become so centered and argumentative on the concept of " stabilization of a vertebral segment " when in fact I simply discussed the light needle stimulation of GB-21. I do not see where stabilization of a vertebral segment or " strong periosteal-ligamentous stimulation " had anything to do with the conversation However, congratulations that's how good arguments begin!!!! As far as convincing you that a vertebral segment cannot stabilize with light needling; I would hate to see you or any other professional adopt the mentality that the Chinese so criticized their American counterparts in the early 1970's when the American MD's absolutely refused to believe the claims of acupuncture's effectiveness even though it was demonstrated time and again. I recall a time in 1979 in a hospital in Shanghai when a group of surgeons from the US happened to be in the same hospital with my group as we observed several surgeries with acupuncture analgesia. It was most impressive. It was also disgusting that the entire group of American MD's coming out of the surgery were discussing loudly and belligerently how this whole procedure was a farce and that there was no way in the world someone could achieve that level of analgesia without chemical assistance. They apparently had slipped the patient something without us seeing it!!! The Chinese were insulted and infuriated. In fact a very popular statement made by the Chinese during that time towards the American medical profession was; " The frog in the well knows not of the great ocean " ! They would go on to say " you Americans are like little frogs in the bottom of the well all you can see is the blue sky above you have no idea what's around you " . It is not important I convince you of anything especially since your mind is already made up, It is obvious even if I offered, the explanation and proof would be rejected. At this point it is only important that I continue to achieve remarkable clinical response with my patients utilizing my procedures and not yours. I will never argue the positive effects of strong periosteal-ligamentous stimulation in the appropriate location but certainly never in the vicinity of GB-21. Incidentally, Alon, the purpose of this forum is to share vital academic, clinical and practical information with our colleagues, it is my opinion it is not to be used as a springboard for personal challenge, insult or unsubstantiated argument. Let's all keep an open mind, we may learn an incredible amount of knowledge through the sharing of our experiences. Accept those concepts that we feel are worth accepting and reject everything else silently without argument. To do so will allow a variety of individuals to share their clinical observations without fear of rejection or challenge. John A. Amaro D.C., L.Ac., FIAMA, Dipl.,Ac.(NCCAOM) President: International Academy of Medical Acupuncture Inc. ---- Chinese Medicine Monday, August 22, 2005 11:09:47 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Amaro responds to needle depth My point of view is why stimulate deeply and risk tissue trauma and fainting when the patient can achieve stellar clinical response with the proper point selection and minimal stimulation. >>>>> Because tissue trauma is sometimes what is needed, while not usually at GB-21. I have used both Japanese and what i like to call anatomical based needle techniques for over 20 years as well. There is no way you can tell me that in all conditions you can get the same results with light needling as say with strong periosteal-ligametous stimulation. You will never convinced me that you can stabilize a vertebral segment with light needling, if you can i would like to see stress xrays. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Hi All, & Alon, Alon wrote: > ... tissue trauma is sometimes what is needed, while not usually at > GB21. I have used both Japanese and what i like to call anatomical > based needle techniques for over 20 years as well. There is no way you > can tell me that in all conditions you can get the same results with > light needling as say with strong periosteal-ligametous stimulation. Umm... Thanks for the reminder, Alon. I wrote earlier that I use gentle needling. That is true for most cases, but I also learned from Felix Mann's books that periosteal AP can be very useful, for example in lateral epicondylitis. I use that if necessary. But I also found infra-red LLLT (painless) very good in that condition, and in periostitides in horses (hot splints, bucked shins, etc). Unfortunately, a client to whom I lent my laser unit dropped the probe and the laser died. I never replaced it because of the high cost of a powerful laser. > You will never convince me that you can stabilize a vertebral segment > with light needling, if you can i would like to see stress xrays. Alon, do you doubt that (painless, non-invasive) laser can ease disc pain, or stabilize a vertebral segment? Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Alon, do you doubt that (painless, non-invasive) laser can ease disc pain, or stabilize a vertebral segment? >>>>>>> I have been using laser as well as 3.5W infrared LEDs. No such luck, an unstable segment does not stabilize. You need to stimulate ligametous growth and so far only direct injury seems to work Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I am not sure exactly where or why you have become so centered and argumentative on the concept of " stabilization of a vertebral segment " when in fact I simply discussed the light needle stimulation of GB-21. >>>>>>>> John It looked to me like you were writing beyond GB-21 in your post and it looked like you said in the 21st century there in no reason to cause tissue damage. That is all i wrote about, no personal attack in any way shape or form. Here is what you wrote.... " Having been trained in nine different Asian nations, I fortunately discovered years ago, .....The fact of the matter is they both are very effective. My point of view is why stimulate deeply and risk tissue trauma and fainting when the patient can achieve stellar clinical response with the proper point selection and minimal stimulation. In the 21st Century contemporary patient, pain is a major factor which should be eliminated from treatment as much as possible. " Since i use both light and heavy techniques i know that for example for vertebral instability you need heavy techniques and must cause tissue damage. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 wrote: <snip> > a client to whom I lent my laser unit dropped the probe and the laser > died. I never replaced it because of the high cost of a powerful > laser. Hi Dr. Phil! Really? How much do they cost where you are? I have been considering such an investment. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 wrote: <snip> > Irish patients do not tolerate strong Deqi well. I had more > needle-shock in the first few weeks after my return than I had in the > previous 11 years! > > So I reverted to a gentle needling method, eliciting minimal Deqi. I > still do that today. Hi Dr. Phil! Lately I have been letting the patient tell me when he/she has the sensation by saying " ok " or some similar response. I have one who says " ok " when the needle is in so shallow that it is about to fall out, but I let it go at that anyway. She has made a lot of progress with just that, nearly all of her long-standing issues are resolved! Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Hi Pete, & All, I wrote: > > So I reverted to a gentle needling method, eliciting minimal Deqi. I > > still do that today. Pete Theisen wrote: > Lately I have been letting the patient tell me when he/she has the > sensation by saying " ok " or some similar response. I have one who says > " ok " when the needle is in so shallow that it is about to fall out, but > I let it go at that anyway. She has made a lot of progress with just > that, nearly all of her long-standing issues are resolved! Regards, Pete Pete, that is what I do now. As I insert the needle to the usual depth in the points that I know should elicit Deqi (mainly limb points over peripheral nerves), I tell the patient that he/she should feel something like an electric-shock running away from the needle, numbness, or " funny-bone sensation " . I then twirl and/or sparrow-peck gently until the patient reacts (by a body-jerk, or exclamation), indicating that Deqi has arrived. I do not manipulate again until just before withdrawal of the needle. ..Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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