Guest guest Posted August 21, 2005 Report Share Posted August 21, 2005 This is very interesting... One can read this " mean dangerous length " with some sense of relief but then think about what it doesn't say. First, I know of one double pneumathorax that happened on a body builder. One would think this would be safer but obviously it wasn't. Also this is a " mean " . What would be more useful would be the absolute least length that the researchers found on the smallest body. I remind my students that Serin needles have a crimp at the top of the plastic handle. Years ago, there wasn't this crimp and it was put on because needles would work their way all the into the body and push the handle off. It just takes one " non-average patient " to end a career or a life. For these reasons, it is my contention that any perpendicular needling at GB 21 (nor anywhere on the upper abdomen) is potentially unsafe. Douglas L.Ac. or res19zl9 On Aug 21, 2005, at 9:56 AM, Chinese Medicine wrote: > l pleura. > If the acupuncture needle tip penetrates the parietal pleura, it will > puncture the lung to induce pneumatothorax. > When Jianjing (GB 21) punctured, the acupuncture needle should be > controlled > to advance straight downward,avoiding advancing obliquely toward > the medial > side of the chest. > Conclusion: The mean dangerous depth for perpendicular needling > insertion > downward is 55.96 mm, and for safety, it is proposed that the depth > for > perpendicular needle-insertion is within 39.17 mm in patients with > medium > build. > > Tom. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2005 Report Share Posted August 21, 2005 For these reasons, it is my contention that any perpendicular needling at GB 21 (nor anywhere on the upper abdomen) is potentially unsafe. >>>>> Doug any medical procedure is potentially unsafe. That is why one needs to be educated. The area of GB-21 is so important in the treatment of cervical, shoulder and arm symptoms that to avoid it just because of fear does not make sense. What we need is educated practitioners. If your anatomy and needle procedures are weak you should avoid many areas of the body, probably only needle distal extremities. But as I said before it is very easy to needle this and many other " dangerous " points safely. Also a pneumo would never " end " a career if handled professionally. Pneumo's are no big deal and when done by acupuncture most of the time nothing needs to be done but rest for a couple of days. I am sure pneumos are done all the time and never get recognized or reported. Anyone doing a double pnemo needs to reconsider his/her profession, although with some abnormal anatomy anything is possible. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2005 Report Share Posted August 21, 2005 By the way, in my experience the area of GB21 is very likely to cause a vasovagal reaction and one that may take several minuets to develop. It is therefore not advisable to needle it in a seated patient who is not closely monitored. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 how about ST 35 ? could that be in any way dangerous to insert it quite deeply? >>>> Any intraarticular insertion can potentially cause infection. I always use surgical scrub when needling into joints. No other harm. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Alon, Just out of curiosity, do you use the surgical scrub before and after taking the needles out of their plastic casing, between points etc. It seems very excessive to be doing a 3-5 minute surgical scrub (that is the general length if performed properly) before needling if you're going to be making contact with anything but the patient. And after the surgical scrub to you wear gloves (or double gloves for that matter) when needling. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder: SydneyTCM Head Acupuncture Department / Lecturer Sydney Institute of Traditional ) Member: AACMA www.sydneytcm.com Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > how about ST 35 ? could that be in any way dangerous to insert it quite > deeply? > >>>> > Any intraarticular insertion can potentially cause infection. I always use surgical scrub when needling into joints. No other harm. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Just out of curiosity, do you use the surgical scrub before and after taking the needles out of their plastic casing, between points etc. It seems very excessive to be doing a 3-5 minute surgical scrub (that is the general length if performed properly) before needling if you're going to be making contact with anything but the patient. And after the surgical scrub to you wear gloves (or double gloves for that matter) when needling. >>>>>>> I use it only when needling intraarticularly before in insert the needle only and only on the patient's skin. I use gloves most of the time but not always. I also usually use a thick gage needle 28g Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 A couple of years ago, I attended a one day seminar for doctors who are members of the BMAS(British Medical Acupuncture Society). A very well known consultant anaesthetist and well published acupuncture researcher needled GB21 on a seated patient and we all watched him faint! She told us that he always fainted when she gave needled him and she said that he was a " good reactor " . In other words she perceived the fainting as a positive rather than adverse reaction. The patient spoke very highly of her treatment and of the pain relief he experienced as a result (he was a cancer patient). Personally I would consider it an adverse reaction, but have never had a problem using GB21 and I always have the patient seated. Susie Parkinson L.Ac., B.Sc., B.A., MBAcC Message: 8 Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:01:17 -0700 " " <alonmarcus Re: needle depth By the way, in my experience the area of GB21 is very likely to cause a vasovagal reaction and one that may take several minuets to develop. It is therefore not advisable to needle it in a seated patient who is not closely monitored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Because of the infection potential Alon mentioned, deep needling is contraindicated at the site of an artificial joint. Otherwise, deep needling at ST. 35 and the " Inner Knee Eye " point can be very effective for knee problems. - Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:40 PM Re: needle depth how about ST 35 ? could that be in any way dangerous to insert it quite deeply? >>>> Any intraarticular insertion can potentially cause infection. I always use surgical scrub when needling into joints. No other harm. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Matt I do treat artificial joints but with strict sterile technique Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2005 Report Share Posted August 22, 2005 Hi Alon, Do you ever touch the artificial joint with the needle tip? That is the main contraindication I had been taught for such joints. - Matt - Chinese Medicine Monday, August 22, 2005 3:22 PM Re: needle depth Matt I do treat artificial joints but with strict sterile technique Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Do you ever touch the artificial joint with the needle tip? That is the main contraindication I had been taught for such joints. >>>>>> I can be risky but remember that acuneedles rarely cause infection. As i said i sterilize the skin and use surgical gloves Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.