Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy/ safe needling depth

August 21, 2005

Jan, I wouldn't use the point with a pregnant patient myself. But if you go

back a few posts, you will see that Matt Bauer says he used the point

successfully with pregnant patients. This brought us to a discussion of safe

needling depth of Jianjing GB21, after Holmes Keikobad mentioned he'd rather

never use the point at all.

While we're discussing safe needling depths, I remember reading that " Golden

Needle " Wang Le-ting would puncture the back shu points perpendicular, but

with correct depth. Does anyone do this, and are results better?

Tom.

----

Jan Yoder

08/21/05 19:45:09

Chinese Medicine

Re: Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy?

I find it curious that you are talking about needling GB21 for pregancy???

This is most definitely a no-no. GB21 is descending. Maybe it just so

happened that no one changed the subject title while discussing needle depth

for GB21. whats up with this??

jan, LAc

August 21, 2005

Hi Jan,

IMO, every point has both ascending AND descending, tonifying AND sedating,

gathering AND dispersing, etc, potential, depending on just how they are

manipulated. Yin/Yang is like a see-saw: One can balance a see-saw by either

pushing OR pulling the upper half down and/or pushing OR pulling the lower half

up. Not only have I used GB 21 safely and successfully in pregnancy, I once used

that point to successfully treat an elderly female with a pronounced inguinal

hernia her doctor insisted needed surgery. As Tom mentioned, I touched on this

in a past post but also added the caveat that one not confident in their ability

of to raise qi with this point should avoid it. Much of the influence of

needling is as dependent on the practitioner's qi (essentially qi-gong ability)

as on the mechanical needle manipulation technique. The information in the

textbooks offer a firm foundation but there are many variations of the basic

techniques. It is my own belief that every practitioner needs to find their own

approach; like a singer who studies vocal techniques and learns from great

vocalists but needs to find their own voice.

In all honesty, I don't think I could really teach anyone to do exactly what I

do. Not because it would be over their heads but because I came to it by my own

journey and I am not even sure just how my own abilities and inabilities

evolved. That is why I write and teach about philosophy and so forth rather than

clinical techniques. I like to offer my own experience with this group, but more

for the fellowship of sharing with kindred spirits rather than any kind of

specific advice. - Matt Bauer

-

Tom Verhaeghe

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, August 21, 2005 11:02 AM

Re: Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy/ safe needling depth

Jan, I wouldn't use the point with a pregnant patient myself. But if you go

back a few posts, you will see that Matt Bauer says he used the point

successfully with pregnant patients. This brought us to a discussion of safe

needling depth of Jianjing GB21, after Holmes Keikobad mentioned he'd rather

never use the point at all.

While we're discussing safe needling depths, I remember reading that " Golden

Needle " Wang Le-ting would puncture the back shu points perpendicular, but

with correct depth. Does anyone do this, and are results better?

Tom.

----

Jan Yoder

08/21/05 19:45:09

Chinese Medicine

Re: Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy?

I find it curious that you are talking about needling GB21 for pregancy???

This is most definitely a no-no. GB21 is descending. Maybe it just so

happened that no one changed the subject title while discussing needle depth

for GB21. whats up with this??

jan, LAc

August 22, 2005

Dear Tom and listers,

Unfortunately(for myself at least)my initial training in acupuncture was

very very inadequate with respect to human anatomy.I did not realise this

for many years.I did not think I " really " needed to know and my

teachers(mostly TCM and five elements) at the time seemed to think a very

rudimentary understanding was good enough.This led to me practicing a sort

of " pin the tail on the donkey " hope for the best acupuncture where I never

went into the structure of the body for fear of what might happen,I knew

there were " vital " bits and pieces in there " somewhere " . Results were poor.

Many years later after returning to anatomy classes at university and

teaching myself and much practice(esp in the area of musculo-skeletal work)

in China I absolutely terrified a number of practitioners who saw me

needling in hospitals there. On the one hand here were these amazing men and

women amazing practitioners,some of the best I have ever seen but when it

came to fine detail of muscle,fascia,ligaments etc although they had been

taught had not " really " gone on with it as point prescriptions and depths

are all so neatly packaged in all the books.I found this in every major city

I visited over a five year period so it wasn't a one off experience.I did

teach a number of practitoners some of the needling techniques needed to

release deep muscular pain others said " that is not acupuncture " as I have

been told in the west too,they felt they knew enough and I understood that.

Where am I going with this? It seems to me that there is a bias going on(I

don't know about the US)but definitely in Europe and here in Australia

toward needling according to books on TCM,focussing on the channels,with

very little reference to the STRUCTURE the channel is passing through.The

name of a muscle " may " be mentioned but do we really know that muscle and

its function,I believe we have to and it should be taught TOGETHER with

channel and point knowledge AT THE SAME TIME not as a different subject

given seperately. I think for acupuncturists inparticular it is vital that

we endeavour to achieve a very high level of understanding and palpatory

excellence in this area as our health system is NOT the same as China.

We often work closely with

phsios,osteopaths,chiropractors,podiatrists,sports medical doctors and we

need to speak their lingo as well as our own.I have a number of students

attending my practice and even after 4 years of University some are very

shaky indeed with knowledge of " where " they are actually placing the needles

and the underlying layers and structures.

With great respect to ANY five element practitioners I think that this is a

blind spot in 5 elements.I was recently treated by a reknowned master of

five elements who put only one point in- heart 9 in for a rotator cuff

injury.I asked him what muscle might be involved in his opinion.He replied

" it doesn't matter " this will " clear " the channel and soothe the shen.After

several treatments and no change I went to an experienced bodyworker who

located the site of the " block " which was incredibly painful teres minor

tendon being pulled extremely short by a spasm in the muscle itself.Once

located and released the problem was gone for good in two sessions.How did

he know? By a simple test to see if I could rotate my arm laterally WHICH IS

WHAT THIS MUSCLE DOES,together with the infraspinatus as there was such

restriction it was obviously one or the other.I could have spent a year on

my shen it would have made NO DIFFERENCE as the channel was blocked beyond

the power of ANY distal point being able to release it.

Being able to make a living from one's chosen passion is vital.The reality

for most of these students is that a very large number of clients come to us

with musculo-skeletal pain.This IS the perception the " why acupuncture " IT

IS THE REALITY.If they can help then they can educate about the other things

possible to treat well with acupuncture or herbs or both.It draws people

into the world of if they are helped they are interested if

not they go elsewhere.With a very good anatomical knowledge and continuing

research a lot of the " fear " around needling depths and locations can be

avoided,best of all we can learn from excellent books and on live bodies not

dead ones simply by palpating them.

Ray Ford

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Tom

Verhaeghe

Monday, 22 August 2005 4:03 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy/ safe needling

depth

Jan, I wouldn't use the point with a pregnant patient myself. But if you go

back a few posts, you will see that Matt Bauer says he used the point

successfully with pregnant patients. This brought us to a discussion of safe

needling depth of Jianjing GB21, after Holmes Keikobad mentioned he'd rather

never use the point at all.

While we're discussing safe needling depths, I remember reading that " Golden

Needle " Wang Le-ting would puncture the back shu points perpendicular, but

with correct depth. Does anyone do this, and are results better?

Tom.

----

Jan Yoder

08/21/05 19:45:09

Chinese Medicine

Re: Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy?

I find it curious that you are talking about needling GB21 for pregancy???

This is most definitely a no-no. GB21 is descending. Maybe it just so

happened that no one changed the subject title while discussing needle depth

for GB21. whats up with this??

jan, LAc

August 23, 2005

Hi All, & Matt,

Matt Bauer wrote:

> Hi Jan, IMO, every point has both ascending AND descending, tonifying

> AND sedating, gathering AND dispersing, etc, potential, depending on

> just how they are manipulated. Yin/Yang is like a see-saw: One can

> balance a see-saw by either pushing OR pulling the upper half down

> and/or pushing OR pulling the lower half up. Not only have I used GB 21

> safely and successfully in pregnancy, I once used that point to

> successfully treat an elderly female with a pronounced inguinal hernia

> her doctor insisted needed surgery. As Tom mentioned, I touched on this

> in a past post but also added the caveat that one not confident in

> their ability of to raise qi with this point should avoid it. Much of

> the influence of needling is as dependent on the practitioner's qi

> (essentially qi-gong ability) as on the mechanical needle manipulation

> technique. The information in the textbooks offer a firm foundation but

> there are many variations of the basic techniques. It is my own belief

> that every practitioner needs to find their own approach; like a singer

> who studies vocal techniques and learns from great vocalists but needs

> to find their own voice.

>

> I don't think I could really teach anyone to do exactly what I do. Not

> because it would be over their heads but because I came to it by my own

> journey and I am not even sure just how my own abilities and

> inabilities evolved. That is why I write and teach about philosophy and

> so forth rather than clinical techniques. I like to offer my own

> experience with this group, but more for the fellowship of sharing with

> kindred spirits rather than any kind of specific advice. - Matt Bauer

Matt, very well put.

Walt Whitman said:

" I pass death with the dying and birth with the new-wash'd babe,

and am not contain'd between my hat and boots,

And peruse manifold objects, no two alike and every one good,

The earth good and the stars good, and their adjuncts all good " .

In a play on that, I say:

" I stand 'twixt my hat and shoes, the only option that I know

but also know that no-one else can fill that space and be themselves "

No two great singers, painters, composers or other great artists are

identical in the expression of their art. But, despite differences, their

deek knowledge of, and love and commitment to, their art shines

through and touches those who experience it.

But, Matt, GB21 to resolve an inguinal hernia? I have seen that in the

books, but doubted it. I believed that this is a surgical case, in which the

intestine bulges subcutaneously through a breach / tear in the lower

abdominal muscles.

Are you saying that AP at GB21 (or any other points) can close off that

tear as effectively as surgery can?

Best regards,

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

August 23, 2005

Phil asked " Are you saying that AP at GB21 (or any other points) can close off

that

tear as effectively as surgery can? "

No. Not " as effectively. " In fact, I think it is a real long shot but- not

impossible. I used that example because we were discussing GB21 and I wanted to

make the case it can be a strong point to raise qi from the lower regions. This

patient responded immediately once I used GB21 after no success with some other

points. Her pain vanished and did not return although I do not know what

happened physically to the hernia itself. By the way - some 7-8 years later, I

was able to completely cure this patient's macular degeneration - verified by

her eye specialist. Now - I always tell people this does not mean acupuncture

cures macular degeneration but that there is a chance it may. Since then, I have

had some successes in improving macular degeneration (no other complete cures)

and some failures to help at all. Such variations in response to treatment is

why we are all " practicing " healing. P.S. I really don't like using the word

" cure " but I am in a hurry and used it to save time. - Matt

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, August 22, 2005 4:32 PM