Ideas on acupuncture during pregnancy?

August 18, 2005

supra pubic pain with pendulous abdomen is due to a slack K vessel esp

in the upper venter and thorax

last K point and a point under mid clavicle, if indicated, can be worked

on to strengthen the vessel grid at pubis:

ST SP F LV Ren Chong K

digital pressure will relieve pain, needles will be tricky

if not tiger moxa

regards

dr holmes

Mike Liaw wrote:

> Would anyone share experience doing acupuncture during

> pregnancy?

>

> In 2 days, I will be seeing a patient who is in to her

> 32th week of pregnancy and is experiencing more and

> more unbearable pain right on top of pubic symphasis,

> apparently due to the weight of the baby. Note:

> sitting or lying down in the tub relieves the pain to

> a large extent.

>

> Otherwise, she is normal built and well nourished,

> appears to be energetic, at 42.

>

> Any thought, or experience?

>

> Mike L.

>

August 18, 2005

one more interesting sign:

>

> Note:

> sitting or lying down in the tub relieves the pain to

> a large extent

>

the standing qi [torso qi + linb qi] is unsustained by rising yang

however the sitting qi [torso qi - linb qi] easily is

ergo, the rising yang is unsustained

a palpation at the scalp in the saggital line may show a:

trough

or hollow - empty yang or normal yang eroded by the baby

or a grainy induration - qi lack of long duration

or Heat - a Heat of Cold

or [more likely] Cold - a Cold due to spent Heat

or a surprising tenderness - an Emptiness invaded by goodness knows what

half a dozen more possibilities

if she stands and a simple touch with thumb [Manaka's + ve charge]

relieves pubic tenderness to any extent, one may continue to work it

with the digit or gingerly use the tiger moxa smooth base

this will also wake up baby and make it ready for an exit

holmes

Mike Liaw wrote:

> Dr. Holmes,

>

> Thanks for the suggestions!

>

> My first choice is always remote points, such as the last few points of

> K or Ren 17, or Ren 12.

> The tricky thing is, with remote motes, I usually induce (induce, not

> with strong needle manipulation) pretty strong De Qi on limbs or scalp,

> to effect good result. For an expecting mom, I am not sure about

> inducing strong De Qi even without needle manipulation. I wonder how

> people thought of this dilemma.

>

> I guess I will induce not as strong qi from these remote points. Qi Gong

> with little or no pressing on local points will definitely be used. At

> any rate, I'll have to decide when I see her.

>

> If there are yet other suggestions or thoughts on acupuncture I'd be

> happy to entertain the discussion.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Mike L.

> ........................

>

> BTW, what is " F " channel?

>

> holmes <dkaikobad wrote:

> supra pubic pain with pendulous abdomen is due to a slack K vessel esp

> in the upper venter and thorax

>

> last K point and a point under mid clavicle, if indicated, can be worked

> on to strengthen the vessel grid at pubis:

>

> ST SP F LV Ren Chong K

>

> digital pressure will relieve pain, needles will be tricky

>

> if not tiger moxa

>

> regards

>

> dr holmes

>

> Mike Liaw wrote:

> > Would anyone share experience doing acupuncture during

> > pregnancy?

> >

> > In 2 days, I will be seeing a patient who is in to her

> > 32th week of pregnancy and is experiencing more and

> > more unbearable pain right on top of pubic symphasis,

> > apparently due to the weight of the baby. Note:

> > sitting or lying down in the tub relieves the pain to

> > a large extent.

> >

> > Otherwise, she is normal built and well nourished,

> > appears to be energetic, at 42.

> >

> > Any thought, or experience?

> >

> > Mike L.

> >

>

August 18, 2005

Hi Kim,

I know a few people who did practice Qi Gong all the way through pregnancy. It

is may be like all the " forbidden points " . If the pregnancy is going well, they

won't provoke any miscarriage, but if something is not quite right, then it

could happen?

Artemis

As a practitioner of Medical Qi Gong, I was taught that use of Qi Gong on

pregnant patients was liable to induce miscarriage or abortion *unless* the

practitioner was specially trained in obstetric techniques. Just food for

thought. Good luck!

Kim Blankenship, L.Ac.

August 19, 2005

Jason,

Cautious, absolutely!

One can gain knowledge and reduce fear, then apply what's learned cautiously,

and further reduce the fear. As one gain a lot of experience in a specific

area/technique, one can become fearless but should remain cautious.

Thanks for sharing with us!

Mike L.

jason davies <jason wrote:

I would be really interested too in hearing others' experience and

advice in this area. I have recently had a large number of referrals for

treating women undergoing IVF / ICSI treatment.

As they get pregnant, one common question is whether acupuncture could

be helpful to them during pregnancy. I have been somewhat cautious in my

response to this so far. I know the text-book stuff and protocols and so

on, but I still feel hesitant to treat during the first trimester for

exactly the reason Nora has pointed out : if there were to be a

miscarriage, it is possible that acupuncture may be held responsible.

This of course could be applied across many conditions, but, for obvious

reasons, the stakes are a lot higher in pregnancy.

Jason

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August 19, 2005

May,

Do you recommend Zita West's book, or any other pregnancy related acupuncture

book, and why?

Thanks for sharing!

Mike L.

August 19, 2005

Hi Mike,

I thought the book was well written and informative. It comes from her

experience working as a midwife and using acupuncture; a lot of case

studies, which I found useful;very informative and most thing that can

happen during pregnancy and labour are described and case studies are added.

(Also it is written in the Western medical setting and following that

pregnant women are in; which is useful if you might follow them through

labour too.)

Hope that helps

May

On 19/8/05 4:12 pm, " Mike Liaw " <mikeliaw wrote:

> May,

>

> Do you recommend Zita West's book, or any other pregnancy related acupuncture

> book, and why?

>

> Thanks for sharing!

>

> Mike L.

>

August 19, 2005

a thought

GB 21 is also an incriminating point in some cases of malpractice in

which Pneumothorax figured

wrote a piece on it and had it published

did some work on how near is the apex of lung to the needle, and came

away with enough to put me off the point for keeps

however i respect professionals who have done work with it and use it to

success

i am made of an unadventurous spirit when needles on soft flesh are

concerned

holmes

August 19, 2005

Hi May,

Thanks for sharing! I'll go order one.

Mike L.

May Lucken-Ardjomande <maylucken wrote:

Hi Mike,

I thought the book was well written and informative. It comes from her

experience working as a midwife and using acupuncture; a lot of case

studies, which I found useful;very informative and most thing that can

happen during pregnancy and labour are described and case studies are added.

(Also it is written in the Western medical setting and following that

pregnant women are in; which is useful if you might follow them through

labour too.)

Hope that helps

May

On 19/8/05 4:12 pm, " Mike Liaw " <mikeliaw wrote:

> May,

>

> Do you recommend Zita West's book, or any other pregnancy related acupuncture

> book, and why?

>

> Thanks for sharing!

>

> Mike L.

>

August 19, 2005

I also respect Dr. Holmes' article on this and raising awareness about this

points' potential risks. It was because of his article that I began favoring

lowering the angle of insertion from 30 to 15 or so degrees. I meant to write

him to acknowledge his contribution on this subject when it was first published.

Please accept by belated thanks and congratulations.

Some additional thoughts on GB 21. The sweet-spot of this point (depending on

each patient's muscular thickness) is about 1/4-1/2 inch below the apex of the

trapezius muscle. This muscle is quite large and has several layers or bundles

of fibers. This point is in the most superior layer. One can literally palpate

the point between one's thumb and fingers and feel it within the muscle. One can

then insert either from posterior to anterior or anterior to posterior at 15-30

degrees until the point in the middle of the fiber bundle is reached. Palpation

- the acupuncturist's best friend - is key. - Matt Bauer