Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Dear Dr Holmes, I apologize for the delayed reply- things have been hectic here. Actually, there have been some new developements with this patient since last time I wrote. His URI developed into a very nasty acute sinusitis and he was given IV antibiotics for the last three days at the hospital where I work. He is feeling much better now, however, and his fever is gone, but he will probably be kept on oral antibiotics for at least another week- that will be up to the MDs and him. As for his 5E diagnosis, as I believe I previously mentioned, I have no formal 5E training, so while I can make sense of some of what you speak, there is some which I have difficulty following and I have a hard time confirming any 5E diagnosis. > legitimately, by accepted Design it should have been HT, but > the absence of creases rules this out OK. You mean the absence of creases on the lobe, correct? Very interesting. That in and of itself is a significant enough sign to rule out HT involvement? > > what could happen in LU and tend backwards to ST? > > a smoking mother > > i am betting there was marijuana even at pregnancy but not a good idea > to force the point, men don't like mothers to come up bad I definitely didn't feel comfortable pressing this issue with him. He seemed to think it was entirely possible that she smoked tobacco while she was pregnant with him, but seemed fairly sure that she didn't smoke pot during the pregnancy, at least not a lot of pot. Given that he was born in San Francisco in 1968, it would not be improbable for her to have smoked some pot while she was pregnant. In any case, you see this affecting the LU and then insulting back into the ST? Interesting. > > a. to my mind the illness is ST Earth yin deficient at birth - > b. causing LU deficient during post pubertal life I think there is some basis for the Earth diagnosis, and there is no doubt in my mind about the LU being involved. Earth, because the patient is so thin that maybe there is some problem with assimilation of nutrients (Spleen deficiency). Other than that I don't see that he has a lot of Earth symtoms, but that ought to be enough, no? Then Earth not nourishing Metal leading to Lung Qi deficiency, then the pot smoking damaging the Lung (and Kidney) Yin and generating a lot of heat > > 5 E pattern even if it is vicarious: Inborn Toxic Heat in ST I need a bit more of an explanation to be able to understand your thinking here. I am intrigued but can't follow you other than recalling that you said the tonsilitis was related to ST heat. Is that it or is there more?. > > work with this and if it seems OK to you, we can think up protocol > > btw if things hold at your confirming, you can expect results > at first 2 or 3 sessions > > by the 10th treatment tonsils should have subsided till they matter > no more This would be wonderful, although I have to admit I was not expecting that I could get results like that so quickly. If you can really help us achieve such results, this patient will be most grateful and I will seriously start studying 5E practice! > > then one can get around to the real problem, to weed out Toxic > prenatal Heat from ST OK, very good. Let me know what you think from here and then if you can help me design a protocol I will begin when the patient is ready. Thanks again for all your help, Dr Holmes. Your time and consideration are most appreciated! Best wishes, Greg > > dr holmes > www.acu-free.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Hi all, just an advice...many cases of lateral sclerosis beginning with sore throats... Hugs from Brazil, Jean Joaquim, DVM, MSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2005 Report Share Posted August 13, 2005 Hi Jean, Greg, Tom & All, > > As for root treatment, looks like a shao yang case (wen bing xue, > > due to vaccination). Not easy to treat in clinical practice... > > Best of luck, Tom. If I suspect vaccinosis as the root cause of human or animal problems, I prescribe 1-2 doses of homeopathic high potency (C30 or higher) THUJA. If that fails, I might prescribe a C30 (or higher potency) nosode made from the same type of vaccine. Results to 1-2 doses of the above can be spectacular, with symptom " exaggeration " for 3-7 days, then complete or partial resolution. The exaggeration fits with " Hering's Law of Cure " - return of all symptoms that followed the initial onset after vaccination, but in reverse order of their original appearance. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 the new information that he is thin provisionally stands against a primary Earth problem, unless it was born of a vicarious peri natal situation involving Substance in terms of a refined diagnosis please note that we are having difficulties because of the distance, if one can see a patient the diagnosis can arrive within minutes 5 E works in minutes and is certain, if the practitioner is well trained summarizing: it is either a - LU condition or an Earth condition or very far out, a LV condition what it is not is - a Water condition and a HT condition main symptoms - on ST & LU, almost nothing [from what you have reported] on LV fetal pathology focus - on LU [maternal and personal smoking of tobbacum & Substance] possible 5 E patterns - a. LV overwhelming ST b. Earth not feeding LU c. LU embroiling LU d. LU backing into Earth differential diagnosis - cannot be [a] LV as this would maraud on Earth and one is still left with the fetal LU toxicity and maternal history up in the air cannot be Earth not feeding LU as this is a Mother Son situation lacking the fierce pathogenicity, things are too tame could be [c] LU embroiling LU as this supports the birth & maternal history, but how can it back into ST, Son to Mother is not a pathogenic pathway of any significant sort cannot be [d] LU backing into Earth, unless one factors in the birth & fetal story 5 E pattern shortlisted - c. LU embroiling LU d. LU backing into Earth differential diagnosis again - cannot be [c] as this would not explain ST Toxic Heat, Son cannot back into Mother with this pathogenicity if we take this as pattern tonsils + sinusitis are left up in the air can be [d] LU Perverted backing in to ST in prenatal phase now the odd ball body build - LU illness can give a thinly tight body ST illness cannot give a thinly tight body LU Toxic backing into ST can give a thinly tight body differential diagnosis pre final - look for signs of LU & ST illness on chest back look for signs of LU & ST illness on face as hue look for signs of LU & ST illness on horary clock look for signs of LU & ST illness on hara look for signs of LU & ST illness on ear confirm LU & ST illness on tongue final steps - once you have done this we can still run a final fail safe by reducing trigger points by reflex point intervention a final fail safe - we can treat not by horary 5 shu points, which need a precise diagnosis, but by - 1. trigger release protocol 2. a generic Earth balancing 3. non specific ear approach 4. non specific 3 Warmer approach the tonsils, or lets call it by its right name, ST Toxic Heat in throat, sinuses & [a matter of time before ears kick in with inflammation] all these will settle down, meaning Heat etc will depart, size will reduce, but debris will remain and go away over years the real task is to reverse perinatal qi problems regards dr holmes www.acu-free.com Greg A. Livingston wrote: > Dear Dr Holmes, > > I apologize for the delayed reply- things have been hectic here. > Actually, there have been > some new developements with this patient since last time I wrote. His > URI developed into a > very nasty acute sinusitis and he was given IV antibiotics for the last > three days at the > hospital where I work. He is feeling much better now, however, and his > fever is gone, but > he will probably be kept on oral antibiotics for at least another week- > that will be up to the > MDs and him. > > As for his 5E diagnosis, as I believe I previously mentioned, I have no > formal 5E training, > so while I can make sense of some of what you speak, there is some which > I have difficulty > following and I have a hard time confirming any 5E diagnosis. > > > > legitimately, by accepted Design it should have been HT, but > > the absence of creases rules this out > > OK. You mean the absence of creases on the lobe, correct? Very > interesting. That in and of > itself is a significant enough sign to rule out HT involvement? > > > > > what could happen in LU and tend backwards to ST? > > > > a smoking mother > > > > i am betting there was marijuana even at pregnancy but not a good idea > > to force the point, men don't like mothers to come up bad > > I definitely didn't feel comfortable pressing this issue with him. He > seemed to think it was > entirely possible that she smoked tobacco while she was pregnant with > him, but seemed > fairly sure that she didn't smoke pot during the pregnancy, at least not > a lot of pot. Given > that he was born in San Francisco in 1968, it would not be improbable > for her to have > smoked some pot while she was pregnant. In any case, you see this > affecting the LU and > then insulting back into the ST? Interesting. > > > > > a. to my mind the illness is ST Earth yin deficient at birth - > > b. causing LU deficient during post pubertal life > > I think there is some basis for the Earth diagnosis, and there is no > doubt in my mind about > the LU being involved. Earth, because the patient is so thin that maybe > there is some > problem with assimilation of nutrients (Spleen deficiency). Other than > that I don't see that > he has a lot of Earth symtoms, but that ought to be enough, no? Then > Earth not nourishing > Metal leading to Lung Qi deficiency, then the pot smoking damaging the > Lung (and Kidney) > Yin and generating a lot of heat > > > > > 5 E pattern even if it is vicarious: Inborn Toxic Heat in ST > > I need a bit more of an explanation to be able to understand your > thinking here. I am > intrigued but can't follow you other than recalling that you said the > tonsilitis was related to > ST heat. Is that it or is there more?. > > > > > work with this and if it seems OK to you, we can think up protocol > > > > btw if things hold at your confirming, you can expect results > > at first 2 or 3 sessions > > > > by the 10th treatment tonsils should have subsided till they matter > > no more > > This would be wonderful, although I have to admit I was not expecting > that I could get > results like that so quickly. If you can really help us achieve such > results, this patient will > be most grateful and I will seriously start studying 5E practice! > > > > > then one can get around to the real problem, to weed out Toxic > > prenatal Heat from ST > > OK, very good. Let me know what you think from here and then if you can > help me design > a protocol I will begin when the patient is ready. > > Thanks again for all your help, Dr Holmes. Your time and consideration > are most > appreciated! > > Best wishes, > > Greg > > > > > dr holmes > > www.acu-free.com > > > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Greg A. Livingston wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Thanks for the reply. I have only ever done a small amount of research into megadosing of > vitamin C, so don't know much other than Pauling was a huge advocate. It's interesting to > hear your testimonial on your use of this therapy, and I know of some people in the > alternative cancer treatment community that advocate this. However, there are people that > say it is not such a good idea to take megadoses Hi Greg! The key is *time-release*. If not time-release it goes right through. This is why people have bad experiences with Vitamin C, they either don't take enough or they take it in regular pills instead of time-release. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 In a message dated 8/11/2005 3:25:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, drlivingston writes: Here is one more piece of info I forgot to include in the patient's history. He was never breat fed, only given formula. Not sure if that matters, but given the immune-system nature of this case, I thought it should be mentioned. Greg Yes, it does matter. Depending on the type of formula, it could have a devastating impact on metabolism. This young man has taken metabolic hits his whole life and the key to resurrecting his health is going to be reestablishing proper energy metabolism. So what to do? Make sure he is not eating foods that he is sensitive to. Wheat, dairy, definitely out. Have him avoid soy. There is a chance he was fed soy formula, and soy tends to inhibit the thyroid. That would set him up for diminished digestion and food intolerance's through out his life. Reestablish the fatty acid side of energy metabolism. Chances are, with the abuses he has inflicted on him self, he is insulin resistant and his fatty acid metabolism is in a poor state. Shift him off carbs and supplement him with decent amount of anti-inflammatory oils. Avoid the standard omega 6 oils. No corn, safflower, canola, peanut, soy or other highly processed pro-inflammatory oils for a good long while. The dry weight of the brain and nervous system is 60% fat. A large percentage of that is DHA, most commonly found in fish oil. The importance of feeding the brain and nervous system these vital oils cannot be over stated. Also, there is a phospholipid membrane around all our cells. The oils in these membranes impact cell wall flexibility and the ability of passing nutrients across the cell membrane. Reestablish decent energy from the kreb cycle. Along with insulin resistance comes diminished ability of the cell to uptake magnesium and other nutrients. You can do this by supplementing nutrients that support the kreb cycle. Certain fats and minerals are key. I would suggest not massive doses of Vitamin C, but high doses of mineral ascorbates. The mineral ascorbates are easily absorbed, are buffered and bring minerals into circulation. There are a few companies that offer fizzy mineral ascorbate drinks. I personally like Alacer Corp. They have been educating the public for decades and have been supporting free supplement choice actively. Add magnesium citrate into the drink. It is well absorbed and adds to the citric acid cycle. Both magnesium and citrates, increase ATP production and will go a long way to helping the body purge the toxins he has been storing along the way. Also, zinc, 25-50mgs a day, a good B supplement with at least 50mgs of the majors and sublingual B-12. The later will support the nervous system, diminish the tendency of the body to push inflammatory responses and support the methylation detox pathway. Very important. Of course, getting the byproducts of poor metabolism, digestion and sluggish blood and lymph circulation out of the body is going to be important. Detox!!! Have him take a good bowel detox with adequate fiber for several weeks. Make sure he is taking probiotics and feeding them with lots of vegetables and some fruit. Not to much fruit. Next add a liver cleans. Make sure it has lots of Sylimarin. Do this for several weeks. During this detox time, make sure he is taking all the good oils and mineral ascorbates. At any time in this process he could start juicing. Not sugary juices. I like cucumber, celery, a (one) carrot and a little garlic. 16oz a day makes a huge diffearnce in general vitality. Fresh is better. Don't make juice for a week and refrigerate. Check for signs of systemic candida infection. If there, it is imperative to get rid of it. There are a number of candida protocols out there. Renew Life has a pretty good product with recommended dietary changes. More recently I have been experimenting with coconut oil. Within coconut oil are fatty acids that kill candida, are anti-viral and stimulate fatty acid metabolism in a healthy way. Don't worry about all that saturated fat. It will not cause problems. Caprylic acid, which has been used to fight candida for decades, is found in abundance in coconut oil. The people I use coconut oil with, have all done very well. Does he now or did he ever have many silver filings? If so, include a metal detox. After the liver detox. The mercury from fillings tends to mix with saliva while chewing will tend to settle out in the thyroid, tonsils, and long the digestive track. This will tend to suppress the immune system in several ways and give you many of the symptoms described in your case. If he is highly motivated in for his good health, you may also suggest massage therapy and colon hydrotherapy. In the end, there are no simple answers. Healing for this young man is going to be a journey that if he is willing to under take, will improve his life across the board. If he uses the suggestions given here, he will find many secondary symptoms disappearing and the likely hood of serious disease in the future will diminish tremendously. Hope this helps, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Hi Greg, about the vaccination and shao yang connection: From the Shang Han Lun we know that there are six stages in diseases caused by cold. First layer of defense is of course Tai Yang, and from there the perverse qi can travel to Shao Yang or straight to Yang Ming. Shao Yang is the level at which the disease is half interior/ half exterior. Perverse qi can stay there for a long time, when not treated adequately. Vaccination does not follow natural course of disease. A perverse element is being injected deep into the body. No chance for Tai Yang to catch, or battle with, the pathogen. The pathogen is being allowed to stay in the body latently. Some think that this is similar to a Shao Yang course of disease- the perverse qi is hidden. One of my teachers thought that these hidden xie qi would often develop knotty heat syndromes, and that the wen bing xue was the best guidance book for treatment, although far from perfect- vaccination does not follow natural course of disease. Phil, are your results satisfactory with the homeopathy treatment? Greg, I hope this answers your query, regards, Tom. ---- Greg A. Livingston 08/13/05 17:39:30 Chinese Medicine Re: Huge tonsils and reccurent colds Hi Tom, Thought about the Watermelon frost, but didn't think it would help much. Maybe I'm wrong. In any case his throat doesn't really bother him all that much except when he's got a sore throat from one of his frequent colds. In any case, I'm more interested in your diagnosis of Shaoyang disease due to vaccination. Care to elaborate a bit? Thanks! Greg Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > Greg, > > maybe a simple thing to do, but have you thought of watermelon frost for > branch treatment of the inflammation? You can find them on every street > corner in China (those small pharmacies) and they're dirt cheap, and > effective (for throat pain, mouth sores,...). Better even, get the spray so > it'll reach his tonsils. > > As for root treatment, looks like a shao yang case (wen bing xue, due to > vaccination). Not easy to treat in clinical practice... > > Best of luck, > > Tom. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 hi chris, i have read with much interest our message here but what i didnt under stand is the part about omega6 standard capsules. Why wouldnt they be good in this case, or at all? Istudy except for tcm with much interest nutritionm as such this interest me greetings, evelien --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated 8/11/2005 3:25:58 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > drlivingston writes: > Here is one more piece of info I forgot to include > in the patient's history. > He was never > breat fed, only given formula. Not sure if that > matters, but given the > immune-system > nature of this case, I thought it should be > mentioned. > > Greg > > > Yes, it does matter. > > Depending on the type of formula, it could have > a devastating impact on > metabolism. This young man has taken metabolic hits > his whole life and the key > to resurrecting his health is going to be > reestablishing proper energy > metabolism. > > So what to do? Make sure he is not eating foods > that he is sensitive to. > Wheat, dairy, definitely out. Have him avoid soy. > There is a chance he was > fed soy formula, and soy tends to inhibit the > thyroid. That would set him up > for diminished digestion and food intolerance's > through out his life. > > Reestablish the fatty acid side of energy > metabolism. Chances are, with > the abuses he has inflicted on him self, he is > insulin resistant and his fatty > acid metabolism is in a poor state. Shift him off > carbs and supplement him > with decent amount of anti-inflammatory oils. Avoid > the standard omega 6 oils. > No corn, safflower, canola, peanut, soy or other > highly processed > pro-inflammatory oils for a good long while. > > The dry weight of the brain and nervous system > is 60% fat. A large > percentage of that is DHA, most commonly found in > fish oil. The importance of > feeding the brain and nervous system these vital > oils cannot be over stated. > Also, there is a phospholipid membrane around all > our cells. The oils in these > membranes impact cell wall flexibility and the > ability of passing nutrients > across the cell membrane. > > Reestablish decent energy from the kreb cycle. > Along with insulin > resistance comes diminished ability of the cell to > uptake magnesium and other > nutrients. You can do this by supplementing > nutrients that support the kreb cycle. > Certain fats and minerals are key. > > I would suggest not massive doses of Vitamin C, > but high doses of mineral > ascorbates. The mineral ascorbates are easily > absorbed, are buffered and > bring minerals into circulation. There are a few > companies that offer fizzy > mineral ascorbate drinks. I personally like Alacer > Corp. They have been > educating the public for decades and have been > supporting free supplement choice > actively. Add magnesium citrate into the drink. It > is well absorbed and adds to > the citric acid cycle. Both magnesium and citrates, > increase ATP production > and will go a long way to helping the body purge the > toxins he has been storing > along the way. Also, zinc, 25-50mgs a day, a good B > supplement with at least > 50mgs of the majors and sublingual B-12. The later > will support the nervous > system, diminish the tendency of the body to push > inflammatory responses and > support the methylation detox pathway. Very > important. > > Of course, getting the byproducts of poor > metabolism, digestion and > sluggish blood and lymph circulation out of the body > is going to be important. > Detox!!! > > Have him take a good bowel detox with adequate > fiber for several weeks. > Make sure he is taking probiotics and feeding them > with lots of vegetables and > some fruit. Not to much fruit. > > Next add a liver cleans. Make sure it has lots > of Sylimarin. Do this > for several weeks. During this detox time, make > sure he is taking all the good > oils and mineral ascorbates. > > At any time in this process he could start > juicing. Not sugary juices. > I like cucumber, celery, a (one) carrot and a little > garlic. 16oz a day makes > a huge diffearnce in general vitality. Fresh is > better. Don't make juice > for a week and refrigerate. > > Check for signs of systemic candida infection. > If there, it is > imperative to get rid of it. There are a number of > candida protocols out there. Renew > Life has a pretty good product with recommended > dietary changes. More > recently I have been experimenting with coconut oil. > Within coconut oil are fatty > acids that kill candida, are anti-viral and > stimulate fatty acid metabolism in > a healthy way. Don't worry about all that saturated > fat. It will not cause > problems. Caprylic acid, which has been used to > fight candida for decades, is > found in abundance in coconut oil. The people I use > coconut oil with, have > all done very well. > > Does he now or did he ever have many silver > filings? If so, include a > metal detox. After the liver detox. The mercury > from fillings tends to mix > with saliva while chewing will tend to settle out in > the thyroid, tonsils, and > long the digestive track. This will tend to > suppress the immune system in > several ways and give you many of the symptoms > described in your case. > > If he is highly motivated in for his good > health, you may also suggest > massage therapy and colon hydrotherapy. > > In the end, there are no simple answers. > Healing for this young man is > going to be a journey that if he is willing to under > take, will improve his > life across the board. If he uses the suggestions > given here, he will find many > secondary symptoms disappearing and the likely hood > of serious disease in the > future will diminish tremendously. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > Hi Greg, > > about the vaccination and shao yang connection: > > From the Shang Han Lun we know that there are six stages in > diseases caused > by cold. First layer of defense is of course Tai Yang, and from > there the > perverse qi can travel to Shao Yang or straight to Yang Ming. Shao > Yang is > the level at which the disease is half interior/ half exterior. > Perverse qi > can stay there for a long time, when not treated adequately. Slight correction here. . . shao yang is not 'half interior/half exterior', it is between the interior and exterior. If it were half exterior, for example, it would be a combination disease of tai yang and shao yang, which has symptoms of both channels and different treatments. By 'perverse qi', I assume you mean xie qi/evil qi? > > Vaccination does not follow natural course of disease. A perverse > element is > being injected deep into the body. No chance for Tai Yang to catch, or > battle with, the pathogen. The pathogen is being allowed to stay in > the body > latently. Some think that this is similar to a Shao Yang course of > disease- > the perverse qi is hidden. > This is an interesting concept, even more interesting to me because I taught it beginning twelve years ago from the point of view of wen bing xue, in terms of evil qi entering directly into qi, ying/ constructive or xue/blood aspects. It was an original speculation about the effects of many vaccines. It is at this stage, in my mind, a working model, a proposed theory that we use to try to understand clinical phenomena generated by what homeopaths call 'vaccinosis'. I am curious where you came across the idea, as I never saw it written down before I proposed it. It fascinates me that others are thinking in a similar fashion about how vaccines effect the body. > One of my teachers thought that these hidden xie qi would often > develop > knotty heat syndromes, and that the wen bing xue was the best > guidance book > for treatment, although far from perfect- vaccination does not follow > natural course of disease. In wen bing xue, and to some degree in the Shang Han Lun, a latent evil/fu xie qi can generate internal heat that slowly emanates to outer layers, for example brewing in the ying aspect and expressing itself outwards into the qi aspect. In Shang Han Lun, it is discussed in the appendix on taxation relapse, which occurs when the zheng qi/upright or correct qi is weakened by taxation through overwork, irregular eating, lack of rest and emotional stress, causing the remnants of evil qi to be 'reawakened' with new symptoms. Latent evils are considered to be a type of 'spring warmth' disease in wen bing xue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 In a message dated 8/14/2005 6:23:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eveliensold writes: hi chris, i have read with much interest our message here but what i didnt under stand is the part about omega6 standard capsules. Why wouldnt they be good in this case, or at all? Istudy except for tcm with much interest nutritionm as such this interest me greetings, evelien Hi Evelien, I apologize if I wasn't clear about that. In a healthy person with a healthy diet, there is nothing wrong with the omega 6 group of oils. They tend to push the inflammation cycle, but we need that in our daily life. Balance is the key. My comments about the tonsil case were made in an assumption that there has been an imbalance in the amount of the omega 3 anti-inflammatory group and the omega 6, pro inflammatory group of EFA's. In the typical western diet and almost certainly in this case, the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids are biased towards to much omega 6 oil. In this case, the nature will to push the inflammatory process, creating an increase in the likelihood of most of today's degenerating diseases. Arthritis, cancer, asthma, Alzheimer's, heart disease,,ect. Of course, I am not saying this is the cause of all disease. Excess inflammation just pushes cells beyond healthy function into stress responses and that is bad over time. If we take a person with an imbalance of fatty acids, and we improve the ratio, then that person will have a much better chance of becoming well. Many people think that an optimal balance of omega 3 to omega 6 is 1 to 2. In our society, the ratio is often 1 to 20. Over time, this will cause problems. Does this answer your question? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 Dear Z'ev, yes, I translated xie qi as perverse qi- that is the way we translate it into Dutch and I must have made the leap from Dutch to English. Evil qi is Wisemanese, now I remember. About vaccination and fu xie qi: my teacher Bruno Braeckman introduced this theory to me. He has very interesting theories about emotions and xie qi; and the immune system, consciousness and six layers of defense. He also attaches great importance to environmental factors (such as heavy metal pollution) and vaccination. He has developed, apparently just like you, the theory that vaccination injects xie qi deep inside the body, allowing them to do their " perverse " activities without the body's natural defense capacities. He believes it will disrupt the immune system and might even disturb the jing- just like heavy metals who will nestle deep inside fatty tissues or the nervous system He believes jing disturbances- with related shen disturbances, are the root cause of today's many complicated (knotty) diseases. Jing does not provide substance for the shen to flourish, diseases unfold. So the culprits are vaccination, intoxication (including drugs, heavy metals toxins from food allergies,pollution) and emotions. All this besides standard disease causes, like faulty diets, overwork, bedroom taxation etc. They all will weaken jing, qi and shen. My teacher regarded excessive emotions as a kind of xie qi. He even treated emotions on the respective meridian with a simple shu-luo technique, with fine needles (trying to needle more of the shen-aspect). This emotive xie qi can be palpated at the pulse, but only with very light touch- barely touching the skin. If you can feel a pulse at this level i.e. on the skin, treat it with a shu-luo technique, results can be quite amazing. Treatment is not easy. It takes a long time for jing, shen-consciousness to recover, and the fu xie qi are hard to expel. All this besides normal tcm treatment, which by the way might fail in these complex cases since several factors might not be addressed with normal tcm treatment. Treatment approaches include dietary (enough fatty acids, for example) and lifestyle advice. I would say that at this time, it might be more of a theoretical working model- treatment is still difficult. If anyone on the list knows more about the subject, please, do not hold back! I have asked Bruno on several occasions if he would write a book on his theories, but he still hasn't. Although he does not read Chinese himself, Bruno always uses quotes from respected works (like the books from Claude Larré & Elisabeth Rochat de la Vallée, and the huang di nei jing, wen bing xue, SHL,...) upon which he bases his own ideas.There are excellent class notes by him, but still no book. (Class notes are in Dutch.) There's a lot more body to Bruno's theories than I indicated here. Would you care to elaborate more on your vaccinosis theory, Z'ev? Regards, Tom. ---- 08/15/05 00:16:02 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Huge tonsils and reccurent colds On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > Hi Greg, > > about the vaccination and shao yang connection: > > From the Shang Han Lun we know that there are six stages in > diseases caused > by cold. First layer of defense is of course Tai Yang, and from > there the > perverse qi can travel to Shao Yang or straight to Yang Ming. Shao > Yang is > the level at which the disease is half interior/ half exterior. > Perverse qi > can stay there for a long time, when not treated adequately. Slight correction here. . . shao yang is not 'half interior/half exterior', it is between the interior and exterior. If it were half exterior, for example, it would be a combination disease of tai yang and shao yang, which has symptoms of both channels and different treatments. By 'perverse qi', I assume you mean xie qi/evil qi? > > Vaccination does not follow natural course of disease. A perverse > element is > being injected deep into the body. No chance for Tai Yang to catch, or > battle with, the pathogen. The pathogen is being allowed to stay in > the body > latently. Some think that this is similar to a Shao Yang course of > disease- > the perverse qi is hidden. > This is an interesting concept, even more interesting to me because I taught it beginning twelve years ago from the point of view of wen bing xue, in terms of evil qi entering directly into qi, ying/ constructive or xue/blood aspects. It was an original speculation about the effects of many vaccines. It is at this stage, in my mind, a working model, a proposed theory that we use to try to understand clinical phenomena generated by what homeopaths call 'vaccinosis'. I am curious where you came across the idea, as I never saw it written down before I proposed it. It fascinates me that others are thinking in a similar fashion about how vaccines effect the body. > One of my teachers thought that these hidden xie qi would often > develop > knotty heat syndromes, and that the wen bing xue was the best > guidance book > for treatment, although far from perfect- vaccination does not follow > natural course of disease. In wen bing xue, and to some degree in the Shang Han Lun, a latent evil/fu xie qi can generate internal heat that slowly emanates to outer layers, for example brewing in the ying aspect and expressing itself outwards into the qi aspect. In Shang Han Lun, it is discussed in the appendix on taxation relapse, which occurs when the zheng qi/upright or correct qi is weakened by taxation through overwork, irregular eating, lack of rest and emotional stress, causing the remnants of evil qi to be 'reawakened' with new symptoms. Latent evils are considered to be a type of 'spring warmth' disease in wen bing xue. 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Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 I am fascinated by what you present here, having had similar thoughts about these issues for some time. One of the ideas I have been working with is that many drugs have a deep, altering affect on jing/ essence, including all the steroidal drugs from the 'sports drugs' to prednisone, the hormone replacement therapies, and the SSRI/ antidepressant drugs. This parallels many of the ideas developed by such homeopaths as George Vithoulkas, who sees modern medications as powerful weapons that devastate the native immunity of the body and mind. One of the consequences of this often indiscriminate drugging is that more 'gentle' natural therapies such as acupuncture and much of herbal medicine and homeopathy are difficult for desensitized bodies to respond to properly. These therapies need more time and perseverance, and damaged immune systems are often habituated to the hammering, not-so-smart bombing of modern medicine. We need to add drug poisoning, environmental toxins and travel to the categories of evils that effect human health, and pay special attention to these. Why travel? Crossing time zones frequently and indiscriminately throws off the body's time clocks/circadian rhythms, and people are exposed to a broader range of evils/pathogens in the water, air, soil, food and people than in former times. On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > He has developed, apparently just like you, the theory that > vaccination > injects xie qi deep inside the body, allowing them to do their > " perverse " > activities without the body's natural defense capacities. He > believes it > will disrupt the immune system and might even disturb the jing- > just like > heavy metals who will nestle deep inside fatty tissues or the > nervous system > > He believes jing disturbances- with related shen disturbances, are > the root > cause of today's many complicated (knotty) diseases. Jing does not > provide > substance for the shen to flourish, diseases unfold. > So the culprits are vaccination, intoxication (including drugs, > heavy metals > toxins from food allergies,pollution) and emotions. All this besides > standard disease causes, like faulty diets, overwork, bedroom > taxation etc. > They all will weaken jing, qi and shen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2005 Report Share Posted August 15, 2005 hi chris, yes, very much so and i agree with you. thank you very much for your prompt reply evelien --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2005 6:23:59 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > eveliensold writes: > hi chris, > i have read with much interest our message here but > what i didnt under stand is the part about omega6 > standard capsules. Why wouldnt they be good in this > case, or at all? Istudy except for tcm with much > interest nutritionm as such this interest me > greetings, evelien > > > Hi Evelien, > > I apologize if I wasn't clear about that. > > In a healthy person with a healthy diet, there > is nothing wrong with the > omega 6 group of oils. They tend to push the > inflammation cycle, but we need > that in our daily life. Balance is the key. > > My comments about the tonsil case were made in > an assumption that there > has been an imbalance in the amount of the omega 3 > anti-inflammatory group and > the omega 6, pro inflammatory group of EFA's. > > In the typical western diet and almost certainly > in this case, the ratio > of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids are biased towards > to much omega 6 oil. In > this case, the nature will to push the inflammatory > process, creating an > increase in the likelihood of most of today's > degenerating diseases. Arthritis, > cancer, asthma, Alzheimer's, heart disease,,ect. Of > course, I am not saying > this is the cause of all disease. Excess > inflammation just pushes cells beyond > healthy function into stress responses and that is > bad over time. > > If we take a person with an imbalance of fatty > acids, and we improve the > ratio, then that person will have a much better > chance of becoming well. > > Many people think that an optimal balance of > omega 3 to omega 6 is 1 to > 2. In our society, the ratio is often 1 to 20. > Over time, this will cause > problems. > > Does this answer your question? > > Chris > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Dear Dr. Holmes, Again, thank you for taking time with this. I am very busy here, so it is hard to reply quickly- I apologize. > the new information that he is thin provisionally stands against a > primary Earth problem, unless it was born of a vicarious peri natal > situation involving Substance > > in terms of a refined diagnosis please note that we are having > difficulties because of the distance, if one can see a patient the > diagnosis can arrive within minutes Yes of course, it is difficult to diagnose a patient without having a look at them. I appreciate your persistance. > > 5 E works in minutes and is certain, if the practitioner is well trained > > summarizing: > > it is either a - > LU condition > or an Earth condition > or very far out, a LV condition > > what it is not is - > a Water condition > and a HT condition > > main symptoms - > on ST & LU, almost nothing [from what you have reported] on LV Yes, there are no obvious LV symotoms as far as I can tell. > > fetal pathology focus - > on LU [maternal and personal smoking of tobbacum & Substance] > > possible 5 E patterns - > a. LV overwhelming ST > b. Earth not feeding LU > c. LU embroiling LU > d. LU backing into Earth > > differential diagnosis - > cannot be [a] LV as this would maraud on Earth and one is still left > with the fetal LU toxicity and maternal history up in the air > > cannot be Earth not feeding LU as this is a Mother Son situation > lacking the fierce pathogenicity, things are too tame > > could be [c] LU embroiling LU as this supports the birth & maternal > history, but how can it back into ST, Son to Mother is not a pathogenic > pathway of any significant sort > > cannot be [d] LU backing into Earth, unless one factors in the birth & > fetal story > > 5 E pattern shortlisted - > c. LU embroiling LU > d. LU backing into Earth > > differential diagnosis again - > cannot be [c] as this would not explain ST Toxic Heat, Son cannot back > into Mother with this pathogenicity > > if we take this as pattern tonsils + sinusitis are left up in the air > > can be [d] LU Perverted backing in to ST in prenatal phase Are you suggesting that this, (d), is the only possible diagnosis? > > now the odd ball body build - > LU illness can give a thinly tight body > ST illness cannot give a thinly tight body > LU Toxic backing into ST can give a thinly tight body his body is exactly this- thin but tight > > differential diagnosis pre final - > look for signs of LU & ST illness on chest back > look for signs of LU & ST illness on face as hue > look for signs of LU & ST illness on horary clock > look for signs of LU & ST illness on hara > look for signs of LU & ST illness on ear Patient has slight " pigeon chest " . Back shu points are not particularly tender except Kidney shu. Face: dark circles under eyes, apparently for many years. Nothing abnormal on ear that I have noticed. > > confirm LU & ST illness on tongue Tip of tongue is very red. Middle of tongue has crease, as mentioned before, and has a slightly greasy thin yellow coat > > final steps - > once you have done this we can still run a final fail safe by reducing > trigger points by reflex point intervention OK. I will need some guidance with this though. > > a final fail safe - > we can treat not by horary 5 shu points, which need a precise diagnosis, > but by - > 1. trigger release protocol > 2. a generic Earth balancing > 3. non specific ear approach > 4. non specific 3 Warmer approach OK, sounds good. > > the tonsils, or lets call it by its right name, ST Toxic Heat in throat, > sinuses & [a matter of time before ears kick in with inflammation] all > these will settle down, meaning Heat etc will depart, size will reduce, > but debris will remain and go away over years > > the real task is to reverse perinatal qi problems I see. I think this patient is ready to do whatever it takes. Thanks again for your time and consideration, Dr Holmes. It is much appreciated. Best, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Dear Chris, Thank you so much for all the good information. This patient is willing to do whatever it takes to regain his health, although in China it may be difficult for him to follow all of your recommendations. I will, however, pass on the information and let him do what he is able to do. I also can use a lot of the advise you gave for myself, since living in China presents many challenges to health- the climate is harsh, the pollution is severe, and they use a lot of really bad oils in cooking. In fact it is possible to buy decent oils here (well, olive oil at least can be had- there's not a wide variety of good oils available for the most part), but they are really expensive. Avoiding soy is kind of a pity since there are so many delicious tofu dishes and I, for one, love soy milk As for DHA, can you get this elsewhere besides fish? I am afraid to eat (or recommend others eat) a lot of fish here as the water pollution is bad. I don't know for a fact, but I would guess there are lots of heavy metals and other pollutants in fish here. You mention coconut oil. Is this just as a supplement if one has candida, or can it be used in cooking on a regular basis? Thanks again for all the great ideas. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge! Best wishes, Greg > Yes, it does matter. > > Depending on the type of formula, it could have a devastating impact on > metabolism. This young man has taken metabolic hits his whole life and the key > to resurrecting his health is going to be reestablishing proper energy > metabolism. > > So what to do? Make sure he is not eating foods that he is sensitive to. > Wheat, dairy, definitely out. Have him avoid soy. There is a chance he was > fed soy formula, and soy tends to inhibit the thyroid. That would set him up > for diminished digestion and food intolerance's through out his life. > > Reestablish the fatty acid side of energy metabolism. Chances are, with > the abuses he has inflicted on him self, he is insulin resistant and his fatty > acid metabolism is in a poor state. Shift him off carbs and supplement him > with decent amount of anti-inflammatory oils. Avoid the standard omega 6 oils. > No corn, safflower, canola, peanut, soy or other highly processed > pro-inflammatory oils for a good long while. > > The dry weight of the brain and nervous system is 60% fat. A large > percentage of that is DHA, most commonly found in fish oil. The importance of > feeding the brain and nervous system these vital oils cannot be over stated. > Also, there is a phospholipid membrane around all our cells. The oils in these > membranes impact cell wall flexibility and the ability of passing nutrients > across the cell membrane. > > Reestablish decent energy from the kreb cycle. Along with insulin > resistance comes diminished ability of the cell to uptake magnesium and other > nutrients. You can do this by supplementing nutrients that support the kreb cycle. > Certain fats and minerals are key. > > I would suggest not massive doses of Vitamin C, but high doses of mineral > ascorbates. The mineral ascorbates are easily absorbed, are buffered and > bring minerals into circulation. There are a few companies that offer fizzy > mineral ascorbate drinks. I personally like Alacer Corp. They have been > educating the public for decades and have been supporting free supplement choice > actively. Add magnesium citrate into the drink. It is well absorbed and adds to > the citric acid cycle. Both magnesium and citrates, increase ATP production > and will go a long way to helping the body purge the toxins he has been storing > along the way. Also, zinc, 25-50mgs a day, a good B supplement with at least > 50mgs of the majors and sublingual B-12. The later will support the nervous > system, diminish the tendency of the body to push inflammatory responses and > support the methylation detox pathway. Very important. > > Of course, getting the byproducts of poor metabolism, digestion and > sluggish blood and lymph circulation out of the body is going to be important. > Detox!!! > > Have him take a good bowel detox with adequate fiber for several weeks. > Make sure he is taking probiotics and feeding them with lots of vegetables and > some fruit. Not to much fruit. > > Next add a liver cleans. Make sure it has lots of Sylimarin. Do this > for several weeks. During this detox time, make sure he is taking all the good > oils and mineral ascorbates. > > At any time in this process he could start juicing. Not sugary juices. > I like cucumber, celery, a (one) carrot and a little garlic. 16oz a day makes > a huge diffearnce in general vitality. Fresh is better. Don't make juice > for a week and refrigerate. > > Check for signs of systemic candida infection. If there, it is > imperative to get rid of it. There are a number of candida protocols out there. Renew > Life has a pretty good product with recommended dietary changes. More > recently I have been experimenting with coconut oil. Within coconut oil are fatty > acids that kill candida, are anti-viral and stimulate fatty acid metabolism in > a healthy way. Don't worry about all that saturated fat. It will not cause > problems. Caprylic acid, which has been used to fight candida for decades, is > found in abundance in coconut oil. The people I use coconut oil with, have > all done very well. > > Does he now or did he ever have many silver filings? If so, include a > metal detox. After the liver detox. The mercury from fillings tends to mix > with saliva while chewing will tend to settle out in the thyroid, tonsils, and > long the digestive track. This will tend to suppress the immune system in > several ways and give you many of the symptoms described in your case. > > If he is highly motivated in for his good health, you may also suggest > massage therapy and colon hydrotherapy. > > In the end, there are no simple answers. Healing for this young man is > going to be a journey that if he is willing to under take, will improve his > life across the board. If he uses the suggestions given here, he will find many > secondary symptoms disappearing and the likely hood of serious disease in the > future will diminish tremendously. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi Pete, OK, I will remember that. Can have a look around for that here, but no guarantees. Thanks again. Greg Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Greg A. Livingston wrote: > > Hi Pete, > > > > Thanks for the reply. I have only ever done a small amount of research into megadosing of > > vitamin C, so don't know much other than Pauling was a huge advocate. It's interesting to > > hear your testimonial on your use of this therapy, and I know of some people in the > > alternative cancer treatment community that advocate this. However, there are people that > > say it is not such a good idea to take megadoses > > Hi Greg! > > The key is *time-release*. If not time-release it goes right through. > This is why people have bad experiences with Vitamin C, they either > don't take enough or they take it in regular pills instead of time- release. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi Tom and Z'ev Thanks for taking time for the interesting replies. Maybe you and/or Z'ev can comment on this: If the patient doesn't present with any Shaoyang syptoms, can you still say there is Shaoyang illness going on, and if so, how do you go about diagnosing and treating it? I can see going after latent heat, and this patient certainly has a lot of deficient heat rising, but then one is not necessarily using Shaoyang type formulas to treat, correct? Thanks again! Greg Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > about the vaccination and shao yang connection: > > From the Shang Han Lun we know that there are six stages in diseases caused > by cold. First layer of defense is of course Tai Yang, and from there the > perverse qi can travel to Shao Yang or straight to Yang Ming. Shao Yang is > the level at which the disease is half interior/ half exterior. Perverse qi > can stay there for a long time, when not treated adequately. > > Vaccination does not follow natural course of disease. A perverse element is > being injected deep into the body. No chance for Tai Yang to catch, or > battle with, the pathogen. The pathogen is being allowed to stay in the body > latently. Some think that this is similar to a Shao Yang course of disease- > the perverse qi is hidden. > > One of my teachers thought that these hidden xie qi would often develop > knotty heat syndromes, and that the wen bing xue was the best guidance book > for treatment, although far from perfect- vaccination does not follow > natural course of disease. > > Phil, are your results satisfactory with the homeopathy treatment? > > Greg, I hope this answers your query, > > regards, > > Tom. > > > > ---- > > Greg A. Livingston > 08/13/05 17:39:30 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Huge tonsils and reccurent colds > > Hi Tom, > > Thought about the Watermelon frost, but didn't think it would help much. > Maybe I'm > wrong. In any case his throat doesn't really bother him all that much except > when he's got > a sore throat from one of his frequent colds. > > In any case, I'm more interested in your diagnosis of Shaoyang disease due > to vaccination. > Care to elaborate a bit? > > Thanks! > > Greg > > > Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " > <verhaeghe_tom@h...> wrote: > > Greg, > > > > maybe a simple thing to do, but have you thought of watermelon frost for > > branch treatment of the inflammation? You can find them on every street > > corner in China (those small pharmacies) and they're dirt cheap, and > > effective (for throat pain, mouth sores,...). Better even, get the spray > so > > it'll reach his tonsils. > > > > As for root treatment, looks like a shao yang case (wen bing xue, due to > > vaccination). Not easy to treat in clinical practice... > > > > Best of luck, > > > > Tom. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi Greg, Thanks for those kind words. I'm glad to be of service. As far as soy goes, I think used in it's traditional venue, it is still a good food. If it is not fermented though, there are components that will subdue the thyroid. For most people with decent thyroid acidity, traditional soy is still probably OK. If not, avoid it entirely. IMHO There are other sources of DHA, however, fish oil is the number one source. I agree about pollution. I eat fish only once of twice a month because of it. Although at we just past the season for wild Alaskan sockeye salmon, and that seems to be still quite good. I almost never eat farmed fish. So, for the fish oils, I recommend Carlson lemon flavored liquid. It is delicious. Either straight out of the bottle of on salads. Don't cook with it though. I know there are other good manufactures out there, but part of the reason I prefer Carlson, is they use fish caught in the peak of season for harvesting oil, they process close to the docks, use low temp distillation to remove metals and PCBs, pack the bottles with nitrogen to prevent oxidation, and add some vit. E to further protect the oils. It doesn't get any better than that. Coconut oil is saturated, very stable and has a fairly high flash point, so it is excellent for cooking. Bon appetite. CHris In a message dated 8/16/2005 9:20:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, drlivingston writes: Dear Chris, Thank you so much for all the good information. This patient is willing to do whatever it takes to regain his health, although in China it may be difficult for him to follow all of your recommendations. I will, however, pass on the information and let him do what he is able to do. I also can use a lot of the advise you gave for myself, since living in China presents many challenges to health- the climate is harsh, the pollution is severe, and they use a lot of really bad oils in cooking. In fact it is possible to buy decent oils here (well, olive oil at least can be had- there's not a wide variety of good oils available for the most part), but they are really expensive. Avoiding soy is kind of a pity since there are so many delicious tofu dishes and I, for one, love soy milk As for DHA, can you get this elsewhere besides fish? I am afraid to eat (or recommend others eat) a lot of fish here as the water pollution is bad. I don't know for a fact, but I would guess there are lots of heavy metals and other pollutants in fish here. You mention coconut oil. Is this just as a supplement if one has candida, or can it be used in cooking on a regular basis? Thanks again for all the great ideas. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge! Best wishes, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Greg, I originally responded to Tom's post as a general discussion on latent evils and shao yang, I haven't really examined your case due to time constraints, but if you do not see a shao yang pattern, it is not to be treated as a shao yang pattern. However, this doesn't mean that modifications of xiao chai hu tang, such as chai hu si wu tang cannot be used in such cases. On Aug 16, 2005, at 2:41 AM, Greg A. Livingston wrote: > Hi Tom and Z'ev > > Thanks for taking time for the interesting replies. Maybe you and/or > Z'ev can comment on this: If the patient doesn't present with any > Shaoyang syptoms, can you still say there is Shaoyang illness going > on, and if so, how do you go about diagnosing and treating it? I can > see going after latent heat, and this patient certainly has a lot of > deficient heat rising, but then one is not necessarily using Shaoyang > type formulas to treat, correct? Thanks again! > > Greg > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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