Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 >>> Hi all, I have a patient with a main complain of metallic taste in her mouth, she is not taking any medications and her liver\gb labs result are ok. I was trying to find any comment about metallic taste in various tcm books but couldn't find a thing. Is there any correlation between this taste and any tcm organ? Thank You, Dan<<< Dan, As I understand it, a metallic taste simply refers to the metal element--lung and/or large intestine. Also, from my experience with Western holistic doctors testing for mineral deficiencies (vacuities?), various mineral deficiencies can result in metallic and other tastes, as well as sugar cravings. Joseph Garner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 > Dan, > As I understand it, a metallic taste simply refers to the metal element--lung > and/or large intestine. Do you have a reference on this? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Hi All, Joseph Garner wrote: > Dan, As I understand it, a metallic taste simply refers to the > metal element--lung and/or large intestine. Also, from my > experience with Western holistic doctors testing for mineral > deficiencies (vacuities?), various mineral deficiencies can result > in metallic and other tastes, as well as sugar cravings. A friend of mine for >35 years was diagnosed recently as having haemochromatosis. His case is complicated by a history of multiple angina pectoris attacks and 4 minor heart attacks that required hospitalisation. He has angiographically confirmed severe blockage of two major coronary arteries but his specialists have told him that they cannot do bypass surgery because his vessels are too fragile. He has been on conventional medication for myocardial ischaemia/angina for nearly 2 years now. As regards a metal influence (Metal Revolting on Fire?), he was an unbelievablly heavy smoker. Before he quit (on medical advice when his heart problem was diagnosed) he smoked between 60 and 120 cigarettes daily. As one might expect, he has had throat/bronchial and LU (Metal) irritation for years. My friend is a typical Steel (Metal) Man - he was physically very tough, with great stamina before the heart attacks, but rigid and almost inflexible in his opinions. A pathologically high iron concentration in liver and blood is a feature of haemochromatosis [a genetically-transmitted disorder, as evidenced by its confirmation in two of his brothers also]. To reduce the Fe load from his body, about 7 weeks ago he began a programme to have 1 unit of blood removed per week. Within 2 weeks of the start of the bleeding programme, he noticed the following: (a) strong metallic taste in the mouth; (b) bilateral tenderness/pain on palpation near LU01 and BL13; © strange sensations, sometimes painful, in the fingers, especially the thumb and index finger (LU-LI fingers). Two weeks ago, his blood Fe (or ferritin) levels went offscale and the weekly phlebotomy was discontinued for the moment. Whether or not haemochromatosis was a causal factor in his heart problem has not been confirmed, but that seems possible. Another nice anecdote for TCM? Arch Mal Coeur Vaiss 1978 Apr;71(4):371-9 [The cardiomyopathy of idiopathic hemochromatosis] [Article in French] Mattheyses M, Hespel JP, Brissot P, Daubert JC, Hita de Nercy Y, Lancien G, Le Treut A, Pony JC, Simon M, Ferrand B, Gouffault J, Bourel M. A retrospective study of the case histories of 216 patients with idiopathic haemochromatosis has highlighted the frequency of cardiac involvement in this condition (53%). Two forms can be distinguished: a latent one (65%), in which the changes are predominantly electrocardiographic, and a clinical form (35%) with the features of congestive cardiomyopathy, notable for the rapidity of onset after right heart failure, the degree of cardiomegaly, the constant finding of abnormalities of ventricular repolarisation, the relative frequency of latent disorders of supra-His atrio-ventricular conduction, and the finding of elongation of the isovolumic contraction time on the phonomechanocardiogram. A haemodynamic profile is the same as for non-obstructive hypotonic cardiomyopathies, and is usually associated with a slow rise in left ventricular pressure. The cardiomyopathy, which is the most frequent cause of death, determines the prognosis in this condition. It may be found in association with diabetes and gonad failure. The finding of cardiomyopathy indicates basic treatment by veresection, which may be the only means of establishing a favourable outcome. PMID: 96755 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Drugs 1991 Jun;41(6):875-82 Current concepts in rational therapy for haemochromatosis. Crawford DH, Halliday JW. Liver Unit, University of Queensland, Royal Brisbane Hospital, Australia. Genetic haemochromatosis is characterised by an inappropriately high rate of iron absorption by the small intestine. The disease is transmitted as an autosomal recessive condition. The gene frequency in the Caucasian population is approximately 1 in 20 and the disease frequency is 1 in 400. Excessive iron deposition occurs in the liver, pancreas, heart, pituitary and joints and hepatic iron concentrations above approximately 400 mumol/g dry weight are always associated with fibrosis and usually with cirrhosis and progressive liver failure. Accurate diagnosis depends upon the demonstration of elevated hepatic iron stores. An hepatic iron index [hepatic iron concentration (in mumol/g dry weight) divided by patient age] of greater than 2.0 distinguishes homozygous subjects from the other conditions in which slight increases in hepatic iron concentration may occur, e.g. in a subject heterozygous for haemochromatosis or alcoholic liver disease. If cirrhosis is present, patients are at a high risk of developing hepatocellular carcinoma. Therefore, they should undergo regular abdominal ultrasound and alpha-fetoprotein estimation. In the absence of cirrhosis, phlebotomy restores life expectancy to normal. Venesection should be continued until all excess iron stores are removed as judged by failure of a rise in haemoglobin concentration on cessation of phlebotomy. Screening of first degree relatives should commence from a young age (e.g. 10 years). If serum ferritin or transferrin saturation are abnormal, liver biopsy should be undertaken. HLA typing of the family allows for the identification of those siblings who are most likely to develop the disease. Secondary iron overload is often multifactorial in origin. Iron chelation therapy with subcutaneous deferoxamine (desferrioxamine) should only commence after careful consideration of the potential benefits in each individual patient. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 1715264 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Hosp Med 1999 Dec;60(12):884-90 Haemochromatosis: a time for guidelines? Hall CJ, Critchley AT, Norfolk DR. Harrogate District Hospital, North Yorks. Hereditary haemochromatosis is an autosomal recessive metabolic abnormality which causes excessive absorption of dietary iron. Iron accumulation leads to potentially fatal damage to organs such as the heart, liver and pancreas. Normal life expectancy can be restored simply by therapeutic venesection. Discovery of the gene, HFE, has rekindled interest in pathogenesis, management and screening strategies. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 10707173 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Lakartidningen 1998 Aug 5;95(32-33):3430-5 [Defective iron metabolism in genetic hemochromatosis. The mechanisms remain unknown in spite of genetic advances] [Article in Swedish] Stal P, Hagen K, Hultcrantz R. Gastroenterologiskt Centrum, Huddinge Sjukhus. Genetic haemochromatosis (GH) is one of the most common hereditary diseases, with a prevalence of 1-5/1000 in the Western world. In 90 per cent of cases a mutation is found in an MHC-class-like gene designated HFE, involving a substitution at position 282 of the HFE protein and resulting in defective binding of beta(2)-microglobulin. Animals with beta(2)-microglobulin deficiency develop iron overload, indicating this protein to be involved in the regulation of iron metabolism. Hepatic iron overload results in increased production of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of membrane lipids, thus causing damage to lysosomes, mitochondria and the endoplasmic reticulum. These cellular events may progress to cell death, fibrogenesis, and the development of liver cirrhosis which is associated with a 200-fold increase in risk of hepatocellular carcinoma. In addition to the risk of diabetes, arthralgia, cardiac arrhythmia, pituitary insufficiency and hypogonadism, iron excess is also associated with aggravation of the cytotoxic effects exerted on hepatocytes by other agents such as alcohol or hepatotrophic viruses. The treatment of iron overload in GH consists of weekly venesection until the serum ferritin level is normalized, followed by maintenance therapy. Survival rates are normal if the disease is detected and treated before complications have developed. Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 9725962 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Z Orthop Ihre Grenzgeb 1987 Mar-Apr;125(2):206-8 [Arthropathy in idiopathic hemochromatosis] [Article in German] Zogg T, Fuchs W, Kissling R. Idiopathic hemochromatosis is normally associated with hepatic cirrhosis, myocardial disease and diabetes mellitus. A characteristic arthropathy occurs in approximately 40% of patients with hemochromatosis. The onset may precede other detectable clinical manifestations of the disease. In these cases a early diagnosis and treatment may improve the prognosis. A review of the recent literature is presented. A typical hemochromatosis arthropathy is described in one patient. The significance of a frequent associated chondrocalcinosis is discussed. PMID: 3617892 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 > Dan, > As I understand it, a metallic taste simply refers to the metal element--lung > and/or large intestine. Do you have a reference on this? -<<< Jason- No, I do not. I seem to recall having heard it in class. My Chinese colleague Qun Li says that it could be a liver detoxification problem. She has no particular reference for this, either. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 I had a patient who's main complaint was that everything they ate tasted bitter. His lips had a burning sensation and salty food made his tongue burn terribly. This occured during his chemo therapy for lung cancer (he had smoked heavily for years). It made sense to me that there had to be Heat in the Lu, and any materials I could find (can't remember the reference) all indicated Heat of various organs were to blame for abnormal tastes in the mouth. I tried clearing heat points and tried herbs to clear heat from the Lungs, but I was only able to get his hair to grow back & turn black, and to make his leg spasms cease. His oncologist told him that it sometimes happens during chemotherapy and that sometimes the taste would return to normal and sometimes not. I don't know what part of the chemotherapy would be to blame though, perhaps that would have given me a better direction to try. Geoff > __________ > > Message: 16 > Tue, 13 May 2003 14:50:11 EDT > acugrpaz > Re: Metallic Taste > > > Dan, > > As I understand it, a metallic taste simply refers to the metal > element--lung > > and/or large intestine. > > Do you have a reference on this? > > -<<< > > Jason- > No, I do not. I seem to recall having heard it in class. My > Chinese colleague > Qun Li says that it could be a liver detoxification problem. > She has no > particular reference for this, either. > Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Just yesterday one of my teachers was discussing what it means when people have these different tastes in their mouth. She recently attended a Jeffrey Yuen conference and this is what she relayed about his take on the matter: Taste is due to Spleen and if someone had a metallic taste in their mouth that would be the LU expressing itself through the SP. Bitter taste would be HT expressing itself through SP. She continued to explain that LU dealt with sound, so if someone was had a weeping sound to their voice that would be LU expressing itself through LU. An angry shouting voice would be LV expressing itself through LU. So, SP=taste, LU=sound, K=discharge, HT=complexion, LV=I forget what LV was, Vision perhaps? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 "Simon" at <s.becker wrote in response to "Dave" at <seacell : ------- >>>Taste is due to Spleen and if someone had a metallic taste in their mouth that would be the LU expressing itself through the SP. Bitter taste would be HT expressing itself through SP.>>>>> The question here is: how does this influence your treatment. It sounds nice: the lung expressing itself through the spleen. What actually does this mean in terms of treatment principles or disease mechanism? Simon Becker ------- Dave and Simon: I also attended the Jeffrey Yuen workshop last weekend here in L.A. In reference to this point, he was discussing five elements according to the Nan Jing, and difficulty 49 in particular. The idea is that each of the five zang is susceptible to damage by a particular type of xie/evil, and has a characteristic way that it expresses its pathology: heart=odor, spleen=taste, lung=sound/voice, kidney=discharge/fluid, liver=color/complexion. (Note: this varies slightly from other statements of correspondences, such as in some parts of the Nei Jing) Further, transmission of the pathology of a zang to a second zang will characteristically express a quality corresponding to the second affected zang. Therefore, spleen xie/evil affecting the lung would express a taste (spleen expression) of pungent/acrid/metallic (lung quality of taste). Bob Flaws' "The Classic of Difficulties: A Translation of the Nan Jing" is one reference for this. As a general mechanism, there is an implication that other pathology of a zang, aside from that caused by the specific xie/evil mentioned in the Nan Jing, can transmit to another zang and express similarly. If you to a Nan Jing-based five elements approach, then you would use this information diagnostically as support for the hypothesis that there is spleen pathology which is entwined with the lung. However, you would still need to consider the other diagnostic information and determine (1) if the spleen and lung are the primary areas of pathology, consistent with tongue, pulse, s/s, etc. (in particular, you would expect the metal pulse position to be relaxed/slippery (earth quality), indicating earth invading metal), (2) where excess and deficiency lie within the spleen and lung, (3) which type of perverse/pathological five element relationship holds (disease mechanism), and (4) which five element treatment protocol to use to improve the situation (treatment principle). Also, as a reference for a previous question as to the source of LU/LI correspondence to metal and metallic taste etc., the Nei Jing seems to be often-quoted. Maoshing Ni's "The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine" is one reference for this, for example, chapters 2 and 4. Hope this helps. John Barber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 In a variety of situations, patients have volunteered having a metalic taste. Unusual? Its not one of the big 5 that we learned? Dr.Holmes? thanx jch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Heat in the gallbladder --- cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: > In a variety of situations, patients have > volunteered having a > metalic taste. Unusual? Its not one of the big 5 > that we learned? > Dr.Holmes? > thanx > jch > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 if illness is recent, acute, and non-serious, metallic taste denotes a LU illness if illness is belated, chronic, and serious, metallic taste denotes a HT illness best holmes 1.888.TCM.CEUS 826.2387 cameronhollister wrote: > In a variety of situations, patients have volunteered having a > metalic taste. Unusual? Its not one of the big 5 that we learned? > Dr.Holmes? > thanx > jch > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 more on metallic taste: one: if taste is transient the condition involves LU treatment - settle LU two: if taste is pervasive over days the condition involves HT work only with HT care!! if one tones LU this will weaken LV and have HT run rampant and cause irreparable harm three: if taste is pervasive over months and has tended to change to sour, HT has embroiled LU which has shifted oppression to LV - a serious stage of things here also, work only with HT, taste will settle four: if taste is pervasive over days and has tended to saltish, nothing serious is happening, Son K is embroiled work only with LU best holmes 1.888.TCM.CEUS 826.2387 holmes wrote: > if illness is recent, acute, and non-serious, metallic taste denotes a > LU illness > if illness is belated, chronic, and serious, metallic taste denotes a HT > illness > > best > holmes > 1.888.TCM.CEUS 826.2387 > > > > cameronhollister wrote: > > > In a variety of situations, patients have volunteered having a > > metalic taste. Unusual? Its not one of the big 5 that we learned? > > Dr.Holmes? > > thanx > > jch > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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