Malpractice Insurance

[Guest guest]

Malino

 

What is the AAOM membership fee?

[Guest guest]

On May 13, 2004, at 7:08 PM, krhkempo wrote:

 

> Does anyone know the skinny on New Health Care Management Group?

 

> What I recieved was an application for th American Acupuncture

> Council with it's logo and all the questions they want you to ask. I

> called AAC and this woman is in their directory.

> Did they merge?

 

I'm not sure if " merge " is the right term, but yes, New Health Care

Management Group no longer sells malpractice insurance, but rather sold

all of their accounts to the American Acupuncture Council (AAC).

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

Hi, Ken,

 

I don't really know much about what is going on, but the New Health Care

Management Group has

been my malpractice carrier for 3 or 4 years. At the time I started using them

cause their price

was good as well as the reasons you just mentioned. I recently received my

renewal application and

saw the AAC logo and called. Evidently, they have merged, but they (as I

understand it right now) still

are not requiring arbitration agreements AND still coverage for herbs, etc. But

I agree this is a confusing

situation.

 

Sheila White, L.Ac.

 

 

 

krhkempo <krhkempo

May 13, 2004 7:08 PM

 

Malpractice Insurance

 

Does anyone know the skinny on New Health Care Management Group? I

recieved an application about 1 month ago. I called today to ask a

few questions and things became confusing. The woman, Dawn, is now in

charge and not the one on the app I was given. She then told me I had

an old application and the prices have changed. She began talking

about arbitration agreements, which I am not in favor of. At this

point I became confused so I asked for a new application to be faxed.

What I recieved was an application for th American Acupuncture

Council with it's logo and all the questions they want you to ask. I

called AAC and this woman is in their directory.

Did they merge? I chose New Healthcare Management Group even though

they were more expensive because they had no restriction to herbs,

bleeding techniques, nor Obstetrics etc.. Now I am not sure what to

do. Anyone know?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The NHCMG has sold their program to the Acupuncture Council, who will be

writing comparable, and most likely cheaper, contracts for malpractice.

One of the programs they offer has an arbitration agreement connected to it,

but it is an option, not a requirement.

It is my understanding that they will be having a a la carte menu for people

with different scopes and practices within those scopes, providing coverage

for all scopes and practices, in all 50 states.

It was my impression that the people phoning were not educated to the changes

that are going on in the company that will make all these services available.

 

David Molony

In a message dated 5/14/04 1:11:37 PM, krhkempo writes:

 

 

> Does anyone know the skinny on New Health Care Management Group? I

> recieved an application about 1 month ago. I called today to ask a

> few questions and things became confusing. The woman, Dawn, is now in

> charge and not the one on the app I was given. She then told me I had

> an old application and the prices have changed. She began talking

> about arbitration agreements, which I am not in favor of. At this

> point I became confused so I asked for a new application to be faxed.

> What I recieved was an application for th American Acupuncture

> Council with it's logo and all the questions they want you to ask. I

> called AAC and this woman is in their directory.

>   Did they merge? I chose New Healthcare Management Group even though

> they were more expensive because they had no restriction to herbs,

> bleeding techniques, nor Obstetrics etc.. Now I am not sure what to

> do. Anyone know?

>

>     Ken

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply. I have since talked to the company. AAC has in fact

bought out the NHMG. After talking to the lawyer there, I was assured coverage

of

things like herbs, bleeding and most techniques. OB is only covered if you

want to take out a $40-70,000 policy. According to them, if you attempt to turn

a fetus using acupuncture, you will not be covered under their policy. If,

however, you treat nausea, ie morning sickness, you are O.K.

Clearly, the fact is, there really is noone else providing malpractice for

us specifically. The lawyer for AAC says we are just not an interesting amount

of $$ to get involved with.

Good things is that the pricing is very good for their general policy.

 

 

thanks again,

Ken

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sheila,

After talking to the AAC lawyer, he quoted to me your policyand said it

specifically omits herbs. You might want to call and talk to the about your

policy.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It's not true that no one is covering our entire scope. Caycee Jones, who

was the contact at NHCMG, has formed her own company after the change in

underwriters and is offering the same Lloyd's of London policy that was

previously available covering the full scope of what we do including OB. The

company name is Oriental Medicine Risk Management Group. Policy shopping

among all vendors is always a good idea.

 

I hesitate to give out a proprietor's contact info in a group list setting.

Anyone interested in a phone number can contact me off list.

 

Valerie Hobbs, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anyone who has had this policy knows that herbs are covered through a rider.

 

Valerie Hobbs

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Actually, you may want to consider reading the policy by this new company if

it is the same one as RMN, the actual insurance carrier. According to AAC, the

policy does not cover all scopes of practice. I was quoted part of the policy

that they received from Lloyds that specifically excludes herbs and it does

not cover communicable disease nor OB. Obviously AAC wants the business so I

would definitely get a copy of the policy for myself.

Also, I was told be aware that there is pending litigation against Oriental

Risk Management Group for breach of trade practices. I don't know specifics

but it would hurt to ask.

It seems to be a " buyer beware " industry.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I just had a very confusing conversation with Dawn at the new NHCMG. She says

that Caycee is giving out false information re: the policies offered by various

groups.

 

I have been told both that I do and do not have coverage re: herbs. I was also

told

that the Oriental Medicine Risk Management Group does not actually cover OB if

you

read the policy. I am not trying to say who is right of wrong here, I am just

trying to

get some accurate info. I think I will call the AAOM next, but if they are

affiliated with

one insurer how much can I trust what they say?

 

sheila

 

 

VALERIE HOBBS <valeriehobbs

May 17, 2004 8:25 AM

 

Re: Malpractice Insurance

 

 

It's not true that no one is covering our entire scope. Caycee Jones, who

was the contact at NHCMG, has formed her own company after the change in

underwriters and is offering the same Lloyd's of London policy that was

previously available covering the full scope of what we do including OB. The

company name is Oriental Medicine Risk Management Group. Policy shopping

among all vendors is always a good idea.

 

I hesitate to give out a proprietor's contact info in a group list setting.

Anyone interested in a phone number can contact me off list.

 

Valerie Hobbs, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/16/04 5:27:26 PM, krhkempo writes:

 

 

> Sheila,

>    After talking to the AAC lawyer, he quoted to me your policyand said it

> specifically omits herbs. You might want to call and talk to the about your

> policy.

>

>               Ken

>

 

I have looked over the contract, and, not to be confusing but, the part where

herbs and supplements are omitted is considered exempted earlier in the

contract (A-24), so herbs are covered. Communicable diseases are not, however.

David Molony

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Also, I was told be aware that there is pending litigation against Oriental

Risk Management Group for breach of trade practices. I don't know specifics

but it would hurt to ask.

>>>Also one LAc being sued and not being covered

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I ended up with the same old AAC policy.

 

>>>Anything wrong with that policy?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

How do I go about getting an address and phone number in order to contact the

Oriental Medicine Risk Management Group?

 

K Kochek, Dip.Ac., Lic.Ac.

 

 

-

VALERIE HOBBS

 

5/17/2004 10:25:30 AM

Re: Malpractice Insurance

 

 

 

It's not true that no one is covering our entire scope. Caycee Jones, who

was the contact at NHCMG, has formed her own company after the change in

underwriters and is offering the same Lloyd's of London policy that was

previously available covering the full scope of what we do including OB. The

company name is Oriental Medicine Risk Management Group. Policy shopping

among all vendors is always a good idea.

 

I hesitate to give out a proprietor's contact info in a group list setting.

Anyone interested in a phone number can contact me off list.

 

Valerie Hobbs, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

May 18, 2004 12:58 PM

 

Re: Malpractice Insurance

 

I ended up with the same old AAC policy.

 

>>>Anything wrong with that policy?

Alon

 

One of my complaints about the AAC policy was the required " Certificate of

Insurance " . Yesterday

when I called the new rep for NHCMG (aka. AAC), I was assured that they no

longer required it. I asked

that they fax me a copy of their policy which they did. Buried in the fine

print (of course all of it is fine

print) was that requirement of Certificate of insurance. In case you are not

familiar with that, it requires

anyone on the premises submit info to AAC proving they have insurance. This is

even if they are just renting

space from the same office and you have no other affiliation. If others in a

space that you rent a room in, do not

have insurance this can be used as a reason to deny a claim. Or so I am told by

the rep from Cal Pro. Also, they

require arbitration agreements which I did not want to use, but that's easily

resolved.

 

What I am getting more upset about is the fact that I seem to keep getting

conflicting answers every time

I ask a question.

 

Sheila

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sheila, please call Caycee at 888-398-5447 and get the straight story.

 

Valerie Hobbs

 

 

Sheila White <she-rahk

 

 

Re: Malpractice Insurance

Mon, 17 May 2004 13:25:54 -0700 (GMT-07:00)

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/18/04 1:16:37 AM, krhkempo writes:

 

 

> It seems to be a " buyer beware " industry.

>

>

 

It seems to be getting that way, but perhaps it might be better described as

" buyer, educate thyself on what you are paying for. "

I've been immersed in this stuff for years, but still find it confusing

sometimes. However, I suspect this will all shake out soon, and plan to educate

myself on what it beomes and then write something on it.

David Molony

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

BEing involved in all the bruhaha going on inthe malpractice world, I

personally am waiting a few more weeks for everything to come to a head and for

the

clarity to become available. I myself do not know exactly what is going on

completely, but will make it a point to let this group know when I feel

comfortable with solid information.

There are lots of fingers pointing, but I can't see beyond the wrists at this

point.

David Molony

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

James,

Since I started this thread, I would like to share with you what I

discovered. No one, including the individual companies has or is sharing the

complete

story. Niether Caycee at Oriental nor Dawn at AAC have objective

interpretations of their policy. Nor do they know their competitors policy all

that well.

What I am going to do is consult a contact I have who is a lawyer in the

acupuncture community. He is one of our advocates and a teacher at PCOM NY. I

will

get a copy of the different policies and ask him to take a look at it to see

where our exposure is. I hope he will agree.

My guess is that different policies will have different weaknesses and

leave us exposed in certain ways. I learned from the responses on this site and

my own experience here that we are obviously acupuncturists, not lawyers, and

our opinions and interpretations of these policies is not going to protect us

if forced to use the policy.

The best bet is to consult a non-bias expert in the field. I will post

what I find when it comes, if anyone is interested.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken-

 

Please do post what you find. Thank you for taking this on and sharing with

all of us.

 

-Mary Claire

 

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& gt;krhkempo

& gt;

& gt;

& gt;Re: malpractice insurance

& gt;Thu, 20 May 2004 14:16:10 EDT

& gt;

& gt;James,

& gt; Since I started this thread, I would like to share with you what I

& gt;discovered. No one, including the individual companies has or is sharing

the complete

& gt;story. Niether Caycee at Oriental nor Dawn at AAC have objective

& gt;interpretations of their policy. Nor do they know their competitors

policy all that well.

& gt;What I am going to do is consult a contact I have who is a lawyer in the

& gt;acupuncture community. He is one of our advocates and a teacher at PCOM

NY. I will

& gt;get a copy of the different policies and ask him to take a look at it to

see

& gt;where our exposure is. I hope he will agree.

& gt; My guess is that different policies will have different weaknesses

and

& gt;leave us exposed in certain ways. I learned from the responses on this

site and

& gt;my own experience here that we are obviously acupuncturists, not

lawyers, and

& gt;our opinions and interpretations of these policies is not going to

protect us

& gt;if forced to use the policy.

& gt; The best bet is to consult a non-bias expert in the field. I will

post

& gt;what I find when it comes, if anyone is interested.

& gt;

& gt; Ken

& gt;

& gt;

& gt;

[Guest guest]

This is a great idea, and it may help us negotiate a better policy from both.

DAVe Molony

 

In a message dated 5/21/04 2:59:09 AM, krhkempo writes:

 

 

> James,

> Since I started this thread, I would like to share with you what I

> discovered. No one, including the individual companies has or is sharing the

> complete

> story. Niether Caycee at Oriental nor Dawn at AAC have objective

> interpretations of their policy. Nor do they know their competitors policy

> all that well.

> What I am going to do is consult a contact I have who is a lawyer in the

> acupuncture community. He is one of our advocates and a teacher at PCOM NY.

> I will

> get a copy of the different policies and ask him to take a look at it to see

> where our exposure is. I hope he will agree.

>    My guess is that different policies will have different weaknesses and

> leave us exposed in certain ways. I learned from the responses on this site

> and

> my own experience here that we are obviously acupuncturists, not lawyers,

> and

> our opinions and interpretations of these policies is not going to protect

> us

> if forced to use the policy.

>    The best bet is to consult a non-bias expert in the field.  I will post

> what I find when it comes, if anyone is interested.

>

>         Ken

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow - this malpractice insurance is a bit messy. I saw an letter

New Health Care sent out to one of my friends who is practicing.

Have you seen the website: www.acupuncturemalpractice.com ? It

looks like its a reply to the letter. Maybe this will help.

Jim

 

, acuman1@a... wrote:

> This is a great idea, and it may help us negotiate a better policy

from both.

> DAVe Molony

>

> In a message dated 5/21/04 2:59:09 AM, krhkempo@a... writes:

>

>

> > James,

> > Since I started this thread, I would like to share with you what

I

> > discovered. No one, including the individual companies has or is

sharing the

> > complete

> > story. Niether Caycee at Oriental nor Dawn at AAC have objective

> > interpretations of their policy. Nor do they know their

competitors policy

> > all that well.

> > What I am going to do is consult a contact I have who is a

lawyer in the

> > acupuncture community. He is one of our advocates and a teacher

at PCOM NY.

> > I will

> > get a copy of the different policies and ask him to take a look

at it to see

> > where our exposure is. I hope he will agree.

> >    My guess is that different policies will have different

weaknesses and

> > leave us exposed in certain ways. I learned from the responses

on this site

> > and

> > my own experience here that we are obviously acupuncturists, not

lawyers,

> > and

> > our opinions and interpretations of these policies is not going

to protect

> > us

> > if forced to use the policy.

> >    The best bet is to consult a non-bias expert in the field.  I

will post

> > what I find when it comes, if anyone is interested.

> >

> >         Ken

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would recommend reading everything very carefully. The letter I received this

week from NHCMG is flat out deceptive.

>>They also said it does not cover infections while Lloyds's says communicable

diseases which is totally different. It made me very agree as well and makes me

wander if we are dealing with some internal battle or true problems with

Lloyd's. Unfortunately Declan F. Fay RMN Insurance Agency did not answer my

questions as well. So I would still like to know if Lloyd is not defending an

LAc that is being sued for usage of aristolic acid containing herbs that lead to

damage.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

After several phone calls, faxes, posts here, trying to read the policy closely,

and finally receiving the letter from NHCMG this week

I called CSOMA to ask if they had a position on this or advice. After

explaining some of the communication I had received, they asked me to fax them

the letter and policy. Evidently, CSOMA has a meeting next week with AAC/NHCMG

and told me to expect a response to my questions by the end of next week. I

will be happy to pass on anything I find out, but IMO anyone who is a member

of any professional organization should call so they are clear about the level

of confusion and mistrust that is present in this situation.

That's at least part of what we are paying due for.

 

Sheila

 

Re: Malpractice Insurance

 

I would recommend reading everything very carefully. The letter I received this

week from NHCMG is flat out deceptive.

>>They also said it does not cover infections while Lloyds's says communicable

diseases which is totally different. It made me very agree as well and makes me

wander if we are dealing with some internal battle or true problems with

Lloyd's. Unfortunately Declan F. Fay RMN Insurance Agency did not answer my

questions as well. So I would still like to know if Lloyd is not defending an

LAc that is being sued for usage of aristolic acid containing herbs that lead to

damage.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

As I have said earlier, I am somewhat involved in all this and can only state

that people should not do anything, unless they are up against a total

deadline, until everything is clear over the next few weeks. Insurance laws are

arcane and incredibly complex, and different in every different state.

DAvid Molony

 

In a message dated 5/29/04 1:48:58 PM, she-rahk writes:

 

 

> After several phone calls, faxes, posts here, trying to read the policy

> closely, and finally receiving the letter from NHCMG this week

> I called CSOMA to ask if they had a position on this or advice.  After

> explaining some of the communication I had received, they asked me to fax them

the

> letter and policy.  Evidently, CSOMA has a meeting next week with AAC/NHCMG

> and told me to expect a response to my questions by the end of next week.  I

> will be happy to pass on anything I find out, but IMO anyone who is a member

> of any professional organization should call so they are clear about the

> level of confusion and mistrust that is present in this situation.

> That's at least part of what we are paying due for.

>

> Sheila

>

> Re: Malpractice Insurance

>

> I would recommend reading everything very carefully.  The letter I received

> this week from NHCMG is flat out deceptive.

> >>They also said it does not cover infections while Lloyds's says

> communicable diseases which is totally different. It made me very agree as

well and

> makes me wander if we are dealing with some internal battle or true problems

> with Lloyd's. Unfortunately Declan F. Fay RMN Insurance Agency did not answer

my

> questions as well. So I would still like to know if Lloyd is not defending

> an LAc that is being sued for usage of aristolic acid containing herbs that

> lead to damage.

> Alon

>

>