Guest guest Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 The following study in the Annals of Internal Medicine has supposedly shown that Acupuncture is no more effective than " Sham " Acupuncture in treating fibryomyalgia patients. A randomized clinical trial of acupuncture compared with sham acupuncture in fibromyalgia. Ann Intern Med 2005 Jul 5;143(1):10-9. PMID: 15998750 [PubMed - In-Process] The abstract indicates the patients were treated twice weekly. It is not stated if " de qi " was obtained. According to the research of Dr. Pomeranz, optimal secretion of endorphins requires de qi and also frequent treatments, at least once a day. It does not seem as if treatments were individualized This seems to be another study in which a poor acupuncture protocal was employed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hello all, ...But hey! Don't be discouraged by these studies you may read : ) they always seem to leave out so many important factors, to me! I have Fibromyalgia ( FMS ) and I Can't tell you how much acupuncture has helped...and in so many ways. I've had " active " FMS for 10 years or so and have tried so many things in an attempt to get some relief from it. FMS is a syndrome ~ a collection of symptoms. There are always so many symptoms that it can be hard for the acupuncturist to see any improvement at times. I think sometimes it can be discouraging for them, especially when they read studies that report findings like these. Acupuncture has helped me with things I've still never even told my acupuncturist about! It's helped with (sorry not tcm terms!) esophical reflux, insomnia, Raynords, what they call " fibro fog " or cognitive difficulties (to say the least!) (sorry 'bout my spelling!) , and on and on! Most important it has been vary beneficial in helping me to deal with all of the emotional " stuff " that goes along with trying to live with it on a continual basis : ) It has helped with some of the symptoms while I deal with others, like pain, on a continual basis. May seem crazy but if some of that other stuff can be taken care of even a little, it's much easier to deal with the pain. I also have Had more results with some practitioners than others. I think due to knowledge or styles and experience? I can't believe that a random needling (sham acupuncture) or even dry needling of trigger points could give me the same results that are achieved by an experienced acupuncturist. I do have some questions for the practitioners on this page, just mostly out of curiosity. And thank you for any responses or replies I may receive : ) 1. In tc/tcm terms what do you see presenting the most in people with FMS ? 2. What kind of similarities do you see between your patients that have FMS? 3. What kind of results do you see when treating them? 4. Understanding three is lots of factors that come in to play, what is the average timeframe that you start to see results? 5. What is the average duration for treating someone with it, if that can be figured? Ps. I am Not an acupuncturist. I study some martial arts and have always had an interest...and I have some wonderful acupuncturists in my life that are kind enough to try to answer my questions and inspire me to learn more : ) .I would like to go to school for tcm but do not yet have enough credits...energy?...so I am trying to learn as much as I can now. Sorry my knowledge is still so so little! Thank you to all who write on this page for sharing you opinions and Knowledge you have all given me so much to think about! Stay well, Rah~ri Chinese Medicine , martyeisen@a... wrote: > The following study in the Annals of Internal Medicine has supposedly shown > that Acupuncture is no more effective than " Sham " Acupuncture in treating > fibryomyalgia patients. > A randomized clinical trial of acupuncture compared with sham acupuncture in fibromyalgia. > Ann Intern Med 2005 Jul 5;143(1):10-9. > PMID: 15998750 [PubMed - In-Process] > The abstract indicates the patients were treated twice weekly. It is not > stated if " de qi " was obtained. > According to the research of Dr. Pomeranz, optimal secretion of endorphins > requires de qi and also frequent treatments, at least once a day. > It does not seem as if treatments were individualized > This seems to be another study in which a poor acupuncture protocal was > employed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hello, Sorry if the question sounds too basic to the acupuncturists of the list, but what is " de qi " ? > It does not seem as if treatments were individualized > You often have similar problems with homoepathic trials. No individualisation of treatments, and usually the " conclusion " becomes that it's no better than the placebo group. Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Artemis Papert wrote: > Hello, > > Sorry if the question sounds too basic to the acupuncturists of the > list, but what is " de qi " ? Hi Artemis! This is the acupuncture sensation. Variously described as burning, ants crawling, resonating, etc., it is different from the initial prick of the insertion. If you have an electric shock sensation the needle may have struck a nerve, usually it does not come to this. Sometimes it is quite difficult to achieve " de qi " , requiring much needle stimulation - twirling, up and down, in and out. A fair number of acupuncturists don't bother/risk to do it. The risk in attempting the " de qi " achievement is that you may inflict pain on the patient - the electric shock sensation or just a very strong pricking sensation. My mentor used to say " Three 'Ow!' and you lose the patient. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Pete, It is also my understanding that " burning " is also a sign you contacted a nerve. That to me is not de qi which tends to be more heavy and localized, dull distension. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Pete Theisen <petet >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: Acupuncture for Fibromyalgia >Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:41:58 -0400 > >Artemis Papert wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Sorry if the question sounds too basic to the acupuncturists of the > > list, but what is " de qi " ? > >Hi Artemis! > >This is the acupuncture sensation. Variously described as burning, ants >crawling, resonating, etc., it is different from the initial prick of >the insertion. If you have an electric shock sensation the needle may >have struck a nerve, usually it does not come to this. > >Sometimes it is quite difficult to achieve " de qi " , requiring much >needle stimulation - twirling, up and down, in and out. A fair number of >acupuncturists don't bother/risk to do it. > >The risk in attempting the " de qi " achievement is that you may inflict >pain on the patient - the electric shock sensation or just a very strong >pricking sensation. My mentor used to say " Three 'Ow!' and you lose the >patient. > >Regards, > >Pete > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 mike Bowser wrote: > Pete, > > It is also my understanding that " burning " is also a sign you > contacted a nerve. That to me is not de qi which tends to be more > heavy and localized, dull distension. > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Hi Mike! Yes, could be. I usually let the patient's reaction guide me. I ask if they want me to back it off and if they do, I do. Usually any discomfort subsides in a second. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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