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Digest Number 1026 sham vs sham

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Even though it was out of line and not in sync with the conversation:

Laura, you said it perfectly! This is indeed the central problem with any

western style research.

 

<<Basically, from what I've seen, the problem with research on

acupuncture is that they study sham acupuncture vs. sham

acupuncture....they study, 1. " Sham " acupuncture points (no such

thing) vs. 2. One prescription for everyone with a given western

diagnosis with no differential diagnosis to derive the points from.

See what I mean? Sham vs. Sham. So, of course, the results come out

as about equal. >>

 

Perhaps we might be better served by studyng patients within defined disease

groupings, with specific and comparable symptoms and dividing them into

patients who receive acupuncture and patients who don't. (This could be done in

conjunction with an MD to find comparable patients willing to fill out the

questionaires and NOT get treated and using on'e own patient load) <yikes i'm

getting carried away here!> Then simply tract how they all are doing at six

month

intervals. Since every patient is unique we can not easily compare treatments-

but quality of life and reduction of symptoms can be subjectively measured,

added to blood work, and any other appropriately useful western diagnostics, we

might come up with some interesting results.

 

 

 

But you have this part terribly wrong:

 

<<And why doesn't the national acupuncture organizations do more to

educate the public about these things? For instance, I'd love to see

them publish a rebuttal on MSN about the article. >>

 

If you want an article written, and you have something to say: THEN WRITE

THE ARTICLE AND SUMBIT IT! Believe me, the national organizations would love to

have EVERYONE'S INPUT AND TALENTS!

 

it always amazes me that people refer to the organizations as some entity -

out there. Who exactly does everyone think the national organizations are?

They are run and made up of a handful of volunteers that put in an extra 20 to

30 thankless hours a week of volunteer time and end up spending 10 to 15

thousand dollars of their own hard earned money a year to support their travels

and

work....and what they do is never enough. Do you want to know why? Because

you have a few people doing the work of the entire profession. Geez guys, we

are a small and growing profession, EVERYONE has to take responsibility for

this profession, how it is viewed and how our local media represents us. One

takes responsibility by actually paying your membership dues to a national

organization each year, but that is just the beginning. If you see an article

somewhere and want to respond to it, write your response and submit it. Or send

a

copy to the AAOM and ask them to endorse it and submit it. But whatever you

do, don't just sit there and think, gee somebody should do something about

this, cuz there are not enough volunteers to handle everything that must be

done.

Imagine, if only ten acupuncturists intelligently responded to an article,

at least one response might get printed. If we kept that momentum up, every

time a research article appeared, journalists would become more interested and

perhaps even the nature of the research would begin to change. But, without

everyone of us taking the actual responsibility for the education of our

patients and the public we could be swallowed by a larger machine and

'scientifically' proven to be irrelevant. If acupuncture is misunderstood and

misrepresented it is the fault of each and everyone of us for not speaking up

and

correcting the misinformation.

just my two cents

<humbly stepping down from my soap box>

robbee

 

ps

apologizes for not remaining current and yet opening my mouth, just the same.

the data gathering that is being proposed looks like an awesome project!

good luck

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TashiDelay wrote:

<snip>

> Perhaps we might be better served by studyng patients within defined disease

> groupings, with specific and comparable symptoms and dividing them into

> patients who receive acupuncture and patients who don't.

 

Hi Robbee!

 

There will be a lot of display options included in the user's database

application. The important thing is to get the data into the central

server. The programmer guy said he would have something to show me in

two weeks. Show *ME*. It may be a few months before we go live with this.

 

Once we start using the application I think it will be a couple of years

before we have a serious amount of data in the server. But from then on

we will be an intellectual power, *if* we deserve to be.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

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What are you saying here? That I can't just sit on my tush and expect

everyone else to do the work? Bummer. :)

 

Very good points, and it was definitely naive and reactive of me to

suggest otherwise. I actually did think about how I could write up an

article for MSN and get it published...but didn't get out of the

starting gate with the idea. Maybe this would be a good place for us

to try and organize a group of us to try and get responses published

out there. It seems to me that many of the members on here have a

knack for writing...we should motivate each other to put it to good

use. Anyone know anything about the ins and outs of getting articles

published?

 

Also, I appreciated that somebody understood my point about Sham vs.

Sham acupuncture. Thank you! That's really all that I was writing to

say...not to comment on anything else written in previous posts.

 

:) Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , TashiDelay@a...

wrote:

> Even though it was out of line and not in sync with the conversation:

> Laura, you said it perfectly! This is indeed the central problem

with any

> western style research.

>

> <<Basically, from what I've seen, the problem with research on

> acupuncture is that they study sham acupuncture vs. sham

> acupuncture....they study, 1. " Sham " acupuncture points (no such

> thing) vs. 2. One prescription for everyone with a given western

> diagnosis with no differential diagnosis to derive the points from.

> See what I mean? Sham vs. Sham. So, of course, the results come out

> as about equal. >>

>

> Perhaps we might be better served by studyng patients within defined

disease

> groupings, with specific and comparable symptoms and dividing them into

> patients who receive acupuncture and patients who don't. (This

could be done in

> conjunction with an MD to find comparable patients willing to fill

out the

> questionaires and NOT get treated and using on'e own patient load)

<yikes i'm

> getting carried away here!> Then simply tract how they all are doing

at six month

> intervals. Since every patient is unique we can not easily compare

treatments-

> but quality of life and reduction of symptoms can be subjectively

measured,

> added to blood work, and any other appropriately useful western

diagnostics, we

> might come up with some interesting results.

>

>

>

> But you have this part terribly wrong:

>

> <<And why doesn't the national acupuncture organizations do more to

> educate the public about these things? For instance, I'd love to see

> them publish a rebuttal on MSN about the article. >>

>

> If you want an article written, and you have something to say: THEN

WRITE

> THE ARTICLE AND SUMBIT IT! Believe me, the national organizations

would love to

> have EVERYONE'S INPUT AND TALENTS!

>

> it always amazes me that people refer to the organizations as some

entity -

> out there. Who exactly does everyone think the national

organizations are?

> They are run and made up of a handful of volunteers that put in an

extra 20 to

> 30 thankless hours a week of volunteer time and end up spending 10

to 15

> thousand dollars of their own hard earned money a year to support

their travels and

> work....and what they do is never enough. Do you want to know why?

Because

> you have a few people doing the work of the entire profession. Geez

guys, we

> are a small and growing profession, EVERYONE has to take

responsibility for

> this profession, how it is viewed and how our local media represents

us. One

> takes responsibility by actually paying your membership dues to a

national

> organization each year, but that is just the beginning. If you see

an article

> somewhere and want to respond to it, write your response and submit

it. Or send a

> copy to the AAOM and ask them to endorse it and submit it. But

whatever you

> do, don't just sit there and think, gee somebody should do something

about

> this, cuz there are not enough volunteers to handle everything that

must be done.

> Imagine, if only ten acupuncturists intelligently responded to an

article,

> at least one response might get printed. If we kept that momentum

up, every

> time a research article appeared, journalists would become more

interested and

> perhaps even the nature of the research would begin to change. But,

without

> everyone of us taking the actual responsibility for the education of

our

> patients and the public we could be swallowed by a larger machine and

> 'scientifically' proven to be irrelevant. If acupuncture is

misunderstood and

> misrepresented it is the fault of each and everyone of us for not

speaking up and

> correcting the misinformation.

> just my two cents

> <humbly stepping down from my soap box>

> robbee

>

> ps

> apologizes for not remaining current and yet opening my mouth, just

the same.

> the data gathering that is being proposed looks like an awesome

project!

> good luck

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