Guest guest Posted June 26, 2005 Report Share Posted June 26, 2005 > > Eric, very great posts, send us more. However to this last idea of shorter needle times for vacuity patients, it would seem to be implicit in many references to shorter time for aged patients. Doug > The belief that 30 minute needle retention is contraindicated for > vacuity patients is extremely widespread in the West. We should > examine the veracity of this belief before assuming that it is true. > Therefore, I would ask the group to please come forward with our > sources for this information. I am completely open to updating my > hypothesis at the first sign of evidence to the contrary. But does > the evidence exist in the primary literature? > > > ____________________ > __ > ____________________ > __ > > Message: 9 > Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:41:55 -0000 > " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus > Supplementing vs. Draining Acupuncture Technique and > Needle Retention > > Is anyone aware of any primary sources that say that needle retention > time affects whether acupuncture treatment is supplementing or > draining? It is a commonly held belief in the West that prolonged > needle retention (generally past 20 minutes or so) causes an > acupuncture treatment to be draining in nature- many teachers warn > students not to leave needles in for too long in patients with vacuity > cases, lest their supplementing needle treatments reverse and have a > draining effect on the patient's channels. > > However, despite this widespread belief, I have been unable to find > any Chinese sources that support this notion, and I am beginning to > suspect that it may be an urban myth amongst Western practitioners. I > have asked the dept head at the acupuncture dept in the hospital where > I study, I have asked other senior acupuncture doctors in the dept, > and I have asked the younger resident doctors who have recently > finished a cutting-edge modern TCM education. All of them are totally > perplexed by my question and all state that whether acupuncture is > supplementing or draining is completely dependent on needle technique, > not needle retention. They've never even heard of the notion that > prolonged retention would affect supplementing vs. draining. > (Incidentally, they consider good supplementing technique much more > difficult to master than good draining technique.) > > I have also investigated mainland Chinese and Taiwanese standard > textbooks on acupuncture, and have been completely at a loss to find > anything remotely reinforcing this idea. > > I would love to hear from anyone with a primary source that supports > the idea that needle retention can change acupuncture from > supplementing (bu3) to draining (xie4). In the absence of primary > sources, I would be interested to know what secondary sources promote > this idea so that they may be investigated more extensively. > > I suspect that this notion comes from the frequent mistranslation of > xie4, draining, with the word " sedating. " Chinese doctors will > sometimes laugh upon hearing that Westerners refer to " sedating " an > acupuncture point. In Chinese, sedating/sedation is a totally > separate concept from draining. Draining is a method of needle > manipulation, an action that can be done to an acupuncture channel, as > well as a method of treatment in internal medicine (da huang, for > example, is a draining medicinal). To the Chinese, sedation is > something that is achieved by drugs such as diazepam, and they would > never use the term to express what we achieve through xie4 fa3 needle > technique. > > It seems that many people have the tendency to equate the > pharmacologic notions of stimulating and sedating with the CM notions > of supplementing and draining. Indeed, short needle retention is more > stimulating and prolonged needle retention is more sedating. But > whether the effects on the channel qi are supplementing or draining is > independent of this. The effect on channel qi is determined by needle > technique; we supplement vacuity and drain repletion. We should not > superimpose our Western notions onto CM concepts without a clear > understanding of what the CM concept is. > > We have seen as-yet-unsubstantiated claims that ginseng should not be > used with stimulants, presumably based on the equation of the CM > notion of supplementing qi with the Western notion of stimulants. We > are also apparently seeing widespread belief that the sedation > achieved by acupuncture in general (known to be largely mediated > through endorphin release according to WM) is equitable with the CM > notion of draining. > > The belief that 30 minute needle retention is contraindicated for > vacuity patients is extremely widespread in the West. We should > examine the veracity of this belief before assuming that it is true. > Therefore, I would ask the group to please come forward with our > sources for this information. I am completely open to updating my > hypothesis at the first sign of evidence to the contrary. But does > the evidence exist in the primary literature? > > Eric Brand > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 Chinese Medicine , res19zl9@v... wrote: > > > > > Eric, very great posts, send us more. However to this last idea of > shorter needle times for vacuity patients, it would seem to be > implicit in many references to shorter time for aged patients. > Doug I'm not completely familiar with the references that you are alluding to, so I'd be interested to hear more about it. In the hospital I am in, pretty much all of the outpatients retain their needles for 20 minutes. 20 minutes seems to be an appropriate time, long enough for the effects to sink in but not so long that the patient begins to get restless. The doctors tend to treat 40-120 patients per shift, so I suspect that turnover time for bed space is a factor as well. However, when we go upstairs to the inpatient department, the needles are often retained for 45 minutes. Many of these patients are unconscious, old, and obviously vacuous (typically with an overlay of repletion problems such as phlegm). I know that I personally feel complete after about 20 minutes or so of needle retention. But I can also handle another 20 minutes if I get flipped over and needled on the other side. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 here's another idea, tho I don't know what the classical references are (if any). I've been taught to sometimes use a needle with a *hint* of tonification/dispersal - a hint being a turn of the needle that is less than 180 degrees. This is for patients who's Qi needs time to recognize the treatment, or who are fragile. The needles can then be left in *until there is a sustained pulse change*. Also I was taught that 'tonification' means gathering Qi to a point to effect a change; 'dispersal' to move Qi on from a point to affect a change. The theory - again, don't have references - being that we work with a closed system, the patient's Qi, and acupuncture doesn't create more or take out of the system. Now, I accepted all this as true when I was training - I never thought to ask (which is probably just as well or my class would never have graduated) - so I'm very interested in what you discover. I expect, tho, that - since acupuncture is an evolving paradigm - things get added to the system because they work. Some are written down, some are handed on. karen Eric Brand wrote: >Chinese Medicine , res19zl9@v... wrote: > > >>> >>> >>Eric, very great posts, send us more. However to this last idea of >>shorter needle times for vacuity patients, it would seem to be >>implicit in many references to shorter time for aged patients. >>Doug >> >> > >I'm not completely familiar with the references that you are alluding >to, so I'd be interested to hear more about it. > >In the hospital I am in, pretty much all of the outpatients retain >their needles for 20 minutes. 20 minutes seems to be an appropriate >time, long enough for the effects to sink in but not so long that the >patient begins to get restless. The doctors tend to treat 40-120 >patients per shift, so I suspect that turnover time for bed space is a >factor as well. > >However, when we go upstairs to the inpatient department, the needles >are often retained for 45 minutes. Many of these patients are >unconscious, old, and obviously vacuous (typically with an overlay of >repletion problems such as phlegm). > >I know that I personally feel complete after about 20 minutes or so of >needle retention. But I can also handle another 20 minutes if I get >flipped over and needled on the other side. > >Eric > > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > > >If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2005 Report Share Posted June 27, 2005 In the hospital I am in, pretty much all of the outpatients retain their needles for 20 minutes. >>>>Many Tong-style acup believe that one needs to retain needles for 30 min, or one qi cycle Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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