Lime and Photosensitivity

[Guest guest]

At 09:04 PM 7/15/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Anya, Christy, other good folks ..

>

>> Well, Christy, I wouldn't use it for a leave-on product because of

>> questions about the provenance of the 'distilled' oil.

>>

http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/LemonLimeOil

s.pdf

>

>I don't understand .. " Two samples of distilled lime oil (derived from

>expressed lime oil), however, were found to be phototoxic. "

>

>Two samples of alleged distilled lime which were in fact expressed?

 

OK, here goes the confusion up the wazoo. From what I understand, from a

conversation I had several years ago with an old-timer lime grower in South

Florida, and which I think is germane to this citation from the NIH study,

when limes are squeezed for juice, there are three layers of product: EO,

liquid and pulp. Sometimes the EO, not left as is (expressed) is further

distilled. Don't ask me why, I don't know! :-)

 

I remember thinking that was bizarre at the time, but he repeated the

process to me several times.

 

>But .. why would anybody substitute expressed lime without a buyer's

>knowledge when it costs about DOUBLE the price of distilled lime?

 

Perhaps when some thing is skewed in the oil profile, they decide to

distill it after expression? We need somebody from the citrus industry to

answer this one.

 

>Again .. why adulterate with a substance that costs TWICE as much. But

>it is true that if we make the determination that we can't trust any EO

>to contain what they are supposed to contain .. then everything we have

>learned about safe use of EO and AT is wasted effort and everything we

>think we know is useless information.

 

Uh-oh. Cat's out of the bag!

 

>But then .. that goes for a bottle of bourbon too. Damn .. I'd hate to

>think my next bottle of Wild Turkey might contain donkey pee too. Just

>thinking about it is enough to drive a person to drink. :-(

 

Same reason I never, ever buy ground spices of herbs. Too easy for the

supplier to sweep up wood shavings or whatnot into the mix.

 

>> In addition, furocoumarins may not be the only 'culprit' in phototoxicity

>> and photocarcinogenicity of citrus oils (also found in the cited NIH

article.

 

>I think they are crying wolf. Things like that can happen even in such

>reports because they are written by imperfect critters and the more one

>writes the more it appears that one knows. I have never heard of any

>distilled Lime oil causing photosensitivity .. nor do I believe anybody

>who is not ready for a nut ward would adulterate an oil with a product

>that costs twice as much .. nor does Plant Aromatics agree with this.

 

Butch, I know you are a seasoned vet and know the industry inside and out,

but there is no way you (or I) know of every dermatological problem that is

presented (like no med reports on RTD irritation). Sometimes the end user

just_doesn't_know. I think that is part of what the NIH was trying to get

across, without stating the obvious. And again, when you cite the 2x cost

factor, neither you nor I are able to answer that, not knowing the CITRUS

industry (of which the oil component is a piddlin' little byproduct they're

glad to sell instead of having to dump), because there are so many factors

that go into the production decisions there. Again, I'm thinking oil/flavor

profile somehow determines if the EO skimmed from the expression of juice

process is then distilled.

 

You had another post with a comment from Martin that I'll briefly address

here. Actually, I'd like Martin to research this further :-)...I trust the

NIH report more than I do most 'AT crapola' info floating around the

internet. He objected because it is too technical. He also said:

 

>> I am not aware of any reports of photosensitisation being caused by

>> distilled lime oil when used in the volumes most aromatherapists use,

>> i.e. around half to one percent. There are of course exceptional

>> circumstances where reactions might occur as pointed out in the

>> article on my site and elsewhere.

http://193.110.88.40/~aromamedical/articles/photosens.html

 

Well, I don't trust many aromatherapists, especially the new ones, to know

of Plant Aromatics, safety % limits and the like. This has been my

face-to-face experience with MTs and others who call themselves

aromatherapists. They like stuff *strong* for the most part, i.e., high % EO.

 

And for those 'exceptional circumstances' Martin points out, those are the

folks I am concerned about. In fact, I live year-round subject to the

first three vulnerability factors he cites on that webpage.

 

My end comment: I have no need at all to have either a lime or lemon

verbena oil, in any form, in my life, other than perhaps for some room

scent. If I want lemon verbena scent, it is easily duped with other lemon

oils, most of which Martin wouldn't approve of anyway, since they aren't

tested (like lemon myrtle or tea tree). I don't use them on my body,

either, actually. Since I figure when I blend a perfume, I use less than 1%

lemon or lime (if I use them at all, since I'm not a 'citrusy' person), I

would apply them to body parts covered by clothing, or use them in a

perfume jewelry item.

 

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

©

[Guest guest]

Thank you, everyone, who has contributed to this thread, as it has been an

interesting read. I've always preferred distilled lime over expressed for it's

sweet, juicy aroma. And my supplier is one I trust, who tests all his oils,

so since I'm not a chemist and can't afford my own independent test, I have to

go on trust that this oil is not adulterated.

 

I've always diffused it, and this is the first skin product I've tried. No

way could I be " in the business " like some of you and sell products because I'd

just be freaking out over liability issues all the time!

 

Christy

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi y'all,

 

I was puzzled by the article previously mentioned .. so I asked Martin

for his opinion of that URL .. and it is below. :-) Butch

 

> That document contains nothing new. Such documents will be completely

> confused by aromatherapists and even more so by new people in the trade.

>

> What is relevant is how much of either oil can be safely used on the

> skin and that is well documented by IFRA and is replicated in Plant

> Aromatics. At least that was written for simplicity of understanding

> rather than this document which one needs a degree in chemistry to get

> to grips with.

>

> I am not aware of any reports of photosensitisation being caused by

> distilled lime oil when used in the volumes most aromatherapists use,

> i.e. around half to one percent. There are of course exceptional

> circumstances where reactions might occur as pointed out in the

> article on my site and elsewhere.

> http://193.110.88.40/~aromamedical/articles/photosens.html

>

> People in aromatherapy, or interested in it, should beware of getting

> accurate data from the internet. The last article I saw on that web

> site was dreadful and hardly any references were given. This one on

> lemon and lime is much better but still lacking in respect of giving

> therapists workable information.

>

> You can quote me if you wish.

> Martin