OT: Flag Waving /rebuttal

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/10/2003 6:23:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,

butchbsi writes:

 

> Was the article NOT TRUE .. did Americans NOT pull together after 9/11?

>

 

Here's a funny thing... Yes, it did pull folks together for awhile, but you

know... these days it seems that in reality it split the country. There is

more racism, more rabid insular behavior from the govenment and the people.

It's becoming okay to say " Go back where you came from " to paint hate

messages on walls and places of worshipp, to terrorise kids at school because

they wear different types of clothing and haul people off the street simply

because they have the wrong skin color, and we are turning a blind eye...

" National Security " , " Anti Terrorism Act " .

 

More and more people are say " F them " They didn't help us, let's pull their

aid. F them, they are being mean to us therefore no more french fries, French

Poodles, French Bread and other equally assinine behaviour.

 

" F Them, we don't need them. Where were they when we wanted, nay insisted on

their help " .

 

Problem is, this world has become way too small to do that. The United States

cannot afford to isolate itself from the rest of the world, the way it has

done since 1776 (except then, we were more global in thought and attitude

than NOW). Our children dont even know where these countries ARE that we are

swearing and howling about.

 

Yes I read the article, and yes I got that it was about 9/11, but it was more

than that. A lot more...at least it is when you look at it in the context of

today...

 

Fewer and fewer articles like that are going to be published. Fewer and fewer

people are going to think what wonderful strong people we are. We are going

to be perceived in the eyes of more and more countries as " America the

Bully " , " America the Tyrannt " etc.

 

We can't even accept that those countries have a RIGHT as WE do, to their own

opinions and decisions, they have to do what we WANT them to because we are

in the right and we have the might. Not only that, we bought the right to

their loyalty when we gave them money. Boy, wouldn't that attitude piss US

off?

 

And that worries me. Fear and Hate again. What happened on 9/11? It was the

result of fear and Hate. The more countries and the more people that hate us,

the more we risk something like that happening again. Bush and all his

programs cant stop it,Tom Ridge can't stop it. His " Homeland Security " can't

stop it. You of all people should know that. You've been there and seen it

with your own eyes.

 

It worries me that with our arrogant insular attitude that we are digging our

own graves. It's my opinion that we canNOT afford to say " F them "

 

Okay, the crack about the planting of the WMD was over the top. It was in my

mind after someone else had said it...And yes I got off topic of that note

you sent... I went from there to today. To yesterday where the Marine put the

US flag over the face of Saddam and today we have to worry about who's going

to take offense at a soldiers enthusiasum.

 

Everything had a logical progression in my head, I just didn't put it on

paper!

 

And You're wrong you know... A lot more people agree with you than with me...

when push comes to shove, if it looks like the US is being attacked whether

by someone else or Heavens forfend, one of their own, you can bet the hearts

beat faster, the blood starts pumping and the deep ingrained patriotism rises

to the fore and is ready to fight. That's why Bush has the support he has.

 

But people like me, who do disagree, do have a reason for existing you know.

We are here to give people another view. To show that all is not black and

white. To try and provide balance and the same goes for the conservatives

when the liberals are in power...History buff that you are should understand

checks and balances. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't make us

less of a patriot or less of an American.

 

I phrase things badly and baldly. I go for the jugular, for the kill. I don't

hold back any punches and like you I voice my opinion strongly. However, that

does NOT make me unAmerican nor does it mean that just because I'm in the

minority, that my opinion has no validity.

 

I know you don't like my political views. I'm not all that keen on yours

either. Makes for a big clash... but whether you want to admit it or not, we

both have the same passionate feeling about this country. We express it

differently. You with flags and me with throwing the opposing point of view

to counter balance.

 

Because we are at the opposing ends of the spectrum also doesn't make one of

us wrong. We're a microcosm of what goes on in the Congress. The only

difference is, we don't have to come to any kind of agreement! Ain't life

grand and boy I'm glad I don't have to whittle my opinions, convictions and

beliefs down to something that everyone can live with!

 

>sigh< I'm wore out! Emotions are exhausting. I know I probably should have

kept me mouth shut and said nothing, but eveyone once in a while that Yankee

Rebel stands up and waves her own flag.

 

K

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Excuse me but maybe the topic should be oils and herbs. Topics such as the

war do not belong here no matter how strongly people may feel about it. As

adults we all know that during times like these that many personal statements

made can cause high emotions and the " need " for rebuttal. That wouldn't

happen if the group stuck to the subject. Maybe if you want to talk about

current issues, it would be better to do it out of the group so we don't all

have to read it and get " inflamed " also. I'm sure we all have opinions about

these posts but this is NOT the place. And as far as anybody leaving the

group over it, that would serve no point. I don't write often but I read the

posts and highly respect what I get out of it from all of you. Let's not

ruin that over personal opinions/feelings. Again, this is not the place to

air them, not that we shouldn't have those opinions/feelings.

Peace....please....

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

While I understand your position, and you may well be right.

There are two things that let you know this is not always

going to be oil and/or herbs, one is etc in the address and

two OT: Off Topic, no one has to get inflamed they can simple

hit delete. Just a different opinion.

Janet

 

>Excuse me but maybe the topic should be oils and herbs. Topics such as the

>war do not belong here no matter how strongly people may feel about it. As

>adults we all know that during times like these that many personal statements

>made can cause high emotions and the " need " for rebuttal. That wouldn't

>happen if the group stuck to the subject. Maybe if you want to talk about

>current issues, it would be better to do it out of the group so we don't all

>have to read it and get " inflamed " also. I'm sure we all have opinions about

>these posts but this is NOT the place. And as far as anybody leaving the

>group over it, that would serve no point. I don't write often but I read the

>posts and highly respect what I get out of it from all of you. Let's not

>ruin that over personal opinions/feelings. Again, this is not the place to

>air them, not that we shouldn't have those opinions/feelings.

>Peace....please....

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kathleen,

 

> > trash America

>

> I didn't trash America. I didn't even try to trash America. I have never

> denied that I thought that this war was a bad idea, and I never will.

 

The article you jumped to reply to had NOTHING to do with the war in

Iraq .. it was an article about Americans pulling together after 9/11.

Your anger at events didn't let that register?

 

> At least I'm honest about it. What you would like it better if I just

> sat here nodded my head and said " yea, yea, whatever YOU say " Now that

> would be true moral fiber wouldn't it.

 

Was the article NOT TRUE .. did Americans NOT pull together after 9/11?

 

> You say that now I won't have the opportunity to crow about the

> failure. Just how petty and stupid do you think I am.

 

Not reading clearly and pulling a ready, aim, shoot does not make one

stupid .. just careless.

 

> I said it before and I'll say it again, once we're in, we have/had no

> choice but to win. There was no way we could afford a failure.

 

But .. the article was NOT about the war in Iraq.

 

> You state that the Germans, the French, the Russians all had a

> business interest in Iraq. You really think we did this for altruistic

> reasons?

 

Not at all .. I distrust altruistic people .. they are normally either

liars or selfish and have a strong need to satisfy some weird desires.

It was purely pragmatic .. and a part of a long-term plan.

 

> That WE had no interest in Iraq? That it's not to our advantage to get

> rid of that mad man?

 

We have every reason .. and it worked.

 

> Terror was the " excuse/reason " but you HAVE to know it wasn't the

> only reason.

 

Didn't have to be the only reason .. in politics there is a thing called

credible deniability .. that is the way politics works. We had all to

gain and nothing to lose by seeing that murdering piece of dawg crap go

along the way.

 

> > " Do you have problems reading something good about America? "

>

> Nope. I have never denied and never will deny that this is the

> greatest country in the world. What I have/had problems with is all

> the " Rah Rah' Posts being sent.

 

The rah rah post was about Americans pulling together after 9/11 .. not

sure why that bothered you. Maybe because we aren't supposed to be

doing anything right while we are under a Republican administration.

 

> The US is not perfect. Bush is definately not perfect (Nor for that

> matter were Kennedy, Clinton and every other democrat) and there is

> ALWAYS another side to the " Rah Rah Notes " .

 

Nothing about the post said American or Bush was perfect .. it was all

about Americans pulling together .. and Freedom. Freedom is something I

doubt anyone on this list has not lived with all their lives .. though

maybe some of you have visited countries where there was none .. I have

spent MANY years in such countries. I don't even believe Democracy is a

perfect system .. unworkable in many places .. like Iraq .. but one does

not have to have a Democratic form of government to be FREE! If anyone

says Americans are not free I will not bother to respond to the error.

 

> I'm the only one who is either stupid enough or brave enough to say

> it to you and everyone else.

 

Are you on a crusade? Point is .. you missed the point of the post I

sent with the words of the Romanian newsman .. it was not about Iraq or

Bush or Republicans or pro-war.

 

> At least it seems that way, because I KNOW that as soon as you read it

> you are going to sit down and call me unamerican, giving aid to the

> enemy, unsympatheric and every other emotional name/idiology in the

> book.

 

If you knew that .. then you shouldn't ask me if I think your're stupid.

To me it leaned heavy toward being anti-American .. the suggestion that

the American government would plant WMD in Iraq is not pro-American. It

would suggest that everyone in the system .. to include the military ..

are corrupt and would allow such a lie to go without being uncovered.

 

> S'okay, I'm a big girl and I can take it. I don't like it, but I can

> take it, otherwise I would sit here time after time and keep me mouth

> shut for feat of upsetting you and getting blasted...

 

Nobody has to shut up .. but I recommend you read what you are replying

to a bit closer afore you draw your guns.

 

> like you, I believe in myself and my beliefs enough to stand up for

> them in front of you and the whole world.

 

Difference is my beliefs can be explained without emotion. I can tell

folks WHY I think we did right going to war .. not just say war is bad

cause folks get killed. I think that offering a viable alternative is a

way to support an arguement .. but to date NOT ONE of the anti-war

protestors or countries has done that. Anti-war has become a fad since

the Vietnam War. If we had won that one things would have been much

different I think.

 

> Believe me, it takes just as much guts to stand up and voice your

> opinion in a hostile crowd whether you're Republican or Democrat or

> even if you are into " New Age Crap! "

 

Thank you for saluting my courage .. because I can assure you I am the

minority on this list .. the majority will side with you. This is most

likely because we lived in different worlds.

 

But again .. the post I sent had nothing to do with the war in Iraw so

I'm still wondering how it set you off ??

 

> > " If my flag waving bothers folks here I will be glad to take my

> > tired butt off the list .. "

 

That's right .. all they gotta do is bombard Chris with off-line posts

again .. like they did last time. I can damn sure live without this

list .. and its not my list. But I was feeling good about America and

sent that Rah Rah post .. I've been watching young soldiers and Marines

on CNN all night .. I was feeling damned good about them and what they

have been able to do .. and still do.

 

> No need to get so dramatic Butch. You'll have 3/4's of the list

> standing up and going " Hear Hear!! "

 

I doubt that .. but it appears that you're into image now .. or mayhaps

a popularity contest or whatever. But I do read posts before I reply.

 

> and waving their flags and yelling " Lynch the Bitch! "

 

I doubt if more than one person had that thought. ;-p

 

> All I said was that if you were going to present one point of view, I

> could present another. Your view is just as unpopular with some people

> as mine is to you.

 

So .. what is your view about the Romanian writers thoughts on how the

Americans came together after 9/11? That was the point of the post.

 

> > " I won't reply to ANY posts on this again!!!!! "

>

> Shame that. Reminds me of someone else who picked up his toys and went

> home... and yes that was very inflammatory, but whether or not you

> want to admit it, you have given me very good reason to retaliate just

> a BIT.

 

I meant .. and still mean .. that I'll not reply to any posts regarding

the war in Iraq .. but I couldn't resist replying to this one because

you sent me a personal copy of it.

 

> > " don't look at things as you do because I don't hate everything the

> > Bush administration does and let it shade my opinion of what America

> > is. "

 

With all my heart .. I believe the above is a true statement.

 

> Hate is an awfuly strong word and I can't be bothered to waste that

> emotion on him. No, I don't like Bush. No, I don't like his

> administration. No, I don't like where his administration is trying

> to take us.

 

No problem on not liking .. you can vote as you wish next time .. and I

am 100% sure you don't know where he is trying to take us.

 

> In fact my father told me the other day that if Bush and his cronies

> have their way, anyone who doesn't go to church will end be arrested

> because the fundies have taken over.. oh I forgot... He enlisted in

> the military at the tender age of 18, and for the record, I don't

> agree with HIM either.

 

Not sure what any of that has to do with the subject of my post of even

what's being discussed now .. but I won't get into politics here .. that

is, except to explain current events or history .. as facts .. and they

can't be changed by likes or dislikes or emotions.

 

> Does it shade my opinion of America is and what it stands for? Again,

> Don't be an idiot.

 

Was I being an idiot?

 

> The United States is an extremely flexible country and so are the

> people who live in it. Bush and his cronies can set their stamp on

> this country for awhile, doesn't mean that it will stay forever.

 

Mayhaps you're right.

 

> Fortuantely, he can only be president for 8 years... See there's a

> bright side to everything.

 

Right .. then we can choose between Colin Powell or Hillery. ;-p

 

> No one, especially me, has ever told you to stop waving your flag or

> sending " Rah Rah notes " after all, I believe in free speech... Shame

> I'm not accorded the same courtesy.

 

Did someone write you off line and try to restrict your freedom of

speech? Shame on them. But you might want to pay attentio to what you

are responding to before you exercise it.

 

> Oh. And by the way, all those brave military people that died to allow

> ne to have the right of free speech, amongst them for as far back as

> the history of this country goes, have been members of my family.

 

Good show .. its hard to find a family that hasn't been touched by war

since we've been in teens of them in five generations. Butch

 

> K