RE: Computer Dbs and Acupuncture/CHM Research Protocols

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio, Alon, Mike, & All,

 

> Alon, So what suggestions do you have in standardising the variability

> of practitioner diagnosis and treatment within a RCT setting? Warm

> regards, Attilio D'Alberto

 

I have been wrestling with this problem for years. It is clear to me that a

TCM Dx and Tx depend on sophisticated " Pattern Matching " , a task that

powerful computers are designed to do.

 

My conclusion is that we need to construct an expert database with 4

main sub-databases:

 

1. SYNDROME (PATTERN) Db: This will list all described Syndromes,

whether by 8 Principles, Zangfu/Channel Theory, Six Levels, 4 Levels

(Qi-Xue; Ying-Wei); or whatever.

 

All accepted S & Ss for each Syndrome would be listed, including data on

aversions, tasts, smell, pulse, etc

 

2. SINGLE HERB DB: listing the herb name(s) in (Hanzi (simple and

formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its known attributes

(class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western

clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications, etc);

 

3. HERBAL FORMULA DB: listing the Formula name(s) in (Hanzi

(simple and formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its

known attributes (class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes

specified, western clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications,

etc);

 

4. ACUPUNCTURE Db: Listing all the channel points, earpoints, scalp

points, extra points, etc., and their locations, attributes(main actions,

TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western clinical uses,

combinations, contraindications, etc).

 

To be of practical use to clinicians / researchers, these databases would

need to use a standardised TERMINOLOGY. Alternatively, a complex

THESAURUS, listing all the synonyms for each concept (similar to the

MsSH system in Medline), would need to interface between the user

and the Dbs.

 

A Front-End Menu, to guide the clinician systematically through a

detailed case-questionnaire, would prompt for, and collate, the relevant

clinical data and present them to Db1 for the " top five " (most probable)

" best fits " .

 

With this system, ten clinicians, working from the menu, should come up

with 10 similar " short-listed possible Syndrome Dxs " .

 

By further questioning / examination of the patient (based on Db data for

each of the " most probable Syndromes " ), the clinicians should reach the

most probable Dx.

 

Then, by presenting THAT Dx to Dbs 2, 3, 4, they should identify the

most likely herbs, formulas and acupuncture points to use.

 

Because Pulse Dx is regarded as very important by many TCM

practitioners, I have included it here. But Pulse Dx is (IMO) very

subjective and different Pulse Takers can come up with different

impressions as to the Dx.

 

Therefore, I would ALSO have an " over-ride " on the system that would

eliminate Pulse Dx (and other practitioner-subjective info) and re-run the

analysis, based on the more objective S & Ss + the PATIENT's subjective

info.

 

That way, one could compare TWO outputs, one from ALL the inputted

data, and one with practitioner-subjective data excluded.

 

I am heading for the bunker as I sense incoming missiles from those

who reckon that computers cannot match their expertise and intuition...

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Hi Attilio, Alon, Mike, & All,

>

>

>> Alon, So what suggestions do you have in standardising the

>> variability of practitioner diagnosis and treatment within a RCT

>> setting? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto

>

>

> I have been wrestling with this problem for years. It is clear to me

> that a TCM Dx and Tx depend on sophisticated " Pattern Matching " , a

> task that powerful computers are designed to do.

>

> My conclusion is that we need to construct an expert database with 4

> main sub-databases:

>

> 1. SYNDROME (PATTERN) Db: This will list all described Syndromes,

> whether by 8 Principles, Zangfu/Channel Theory, Six Levels, 4 Levels

> (Qi-Xue; Ying-Wei); or whatever.

>

> All accepted S & Ss for each Syndrome would be listed, including data

> on aversions, tasts, smell, pulse, etc

>

> 2. SINGLE HERB DB: listing the herb name(s) in (Hanzi (simple and

> formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its known

> attributes (class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes specified,

> western clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications, etc);

>

> 3. HERBAL FORMULA DB: listing the Formula name(s) in (Hanzi (simple

> and formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its known

> attributes (class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes specified,

> western clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications, etc);

>

> 4. ACUPUNCTURE Db: Listing all the channel points, earpoints, scalp

> points, extra points, etc., and their locations, attributes(main

> actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western clinical uses,

> combinations, contraindications, etc).

>

> To be of practical use to clinicians / researchers, these databases

> would need to use a standardised TERMINOLOGY. Alternatively, a

> complex THESAURUS, listing all the synonyms for each concept (similar

> to the MsSH system in Medline), would need to interface between the

> user and the Dbs.

>

> A Front-End Menu, to guide the clinician systematically through a

> detailed case-questionnaire, would prompt for, and collate, the

> relevant clinical data and present them to Db1 for the " top five "

> (most probable) " best fits " .

>

> With this system, ten clinicians, working from the menu, should come

> up with 10 similar " short-listed possible Syndrome Dxs " .

>

> By further questioning / examination of the patient (based on Db data

> for each of the " most probable Syndromes " ), the clinicians should

> reach the most probable Dx.

>

> Then, by presenting THAT Dx to Dbs 2, 3, 4, they should identify the

> most likely herbs, formulas and acupuncture points to use.

>

> Because Pulse Dx is regarded as very important by many TCM

> practitioners, I have included it here. But Pulse Dx is (IMO) very

> subjective and different Pulse Takers can come up with different

> impressions as to the Dx.

>

> Therefore, I would ALSO have an " over-ride " on the system that would

> eliminate Pulse Dx (and other practitioner-subjective info) and

> re-run the analysis, based on the more objective S & Ss + the PATIENT's

> subjective info.

>

> That way, one could compare TWO outputs, one from ALL the inputted

> data, and one with practitioner-subjective data excluded.

>

> I am heading for the bunker as I sense incoming missiles from those

> who reckon that computers cannot match their expertise and

> intuition...

 

Hi Dr. Phil!

 

I have been working along the lines you speak for ten years and I have

recently engaged a professional programmer to help me with it. No

missiles from me, I agree with you.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

Incoming....

 

Although I think that a TCM database would have its advantages, I'm weary as

to its protocols and if it would actually work.

 

Firstly, as there are different schools of thought in TCM, how would the

database be loaded, according to what construct, modern PRC TCM or the

classics? Does anyone really know the difference between modern PRC and the

classics BTW?

 

Secondly, it would rest alot on the style of the practitioner asking the

questions, how much they ask, the way they ask, how the patient feels

comfortable with the doctor, etc.

 

Then you've got the tongue, pulse and facial observation subjectiveness as

well. And then you've got the subjectivenss of someone putting that all

together.

 

If you use this in a RCT, its gonna have so many unfactored variables in it,

that it would undermine the study and weaken the results. Don't get me

wrong, I like the idea, I just don't see how it would work. Hopefully Pete

has looked at these problems and taken them into account in this software

program.

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

" A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part

limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and

feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical

illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein)

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil

Rogers

22 June 2005 01:57

Chinese Medicine

RE: Computer Dbs and Acupuncture/CHM Research Protocols

 

 

Hi Attilio, Alon, Mike, & All,

 

> Alon, So what suggestions do you have in standardising the variability

> of practitioner diagnosis and treatment within a RCT setting? Warm

> regards, Attilio D'Alberto

 

I have been wrestling with this problem for years. It is clear to me that a

TCM Dx and Tx depend on sophisticated " Pattern Matching " , a task that

powerful computers are designed to do.

 

My conclusion is that we need to construct an expert database with 4

main sub-databases:

 

1. SYNDROME (PATTERN) Db: This will list all described Syndromes,

whether by 8 Principles, Zangfu/Channel Theory, Six Levels, 4 Levels

(Qi-Xue; Ying-Wei); or whatever.

 

All accepted S & Ss for each Syndrome would be listed, including data on

aversions, tasts, smell, pulse, etc

 

2. SINGLE HERB DB: listing the herb name(s) in (Hanzi (simple and

formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its known attributes

(class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western

clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications, etc);

 

3. HERBAL FORMULA DB: listing the Formula name(s) in (Hanzi

(simple and formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its

known attributes (class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes

specified, western clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications,

etc);

 

4. ACUPUNCTURE Db: Listing all the channel points, earpoints, scalp

points, extra points, etc., and their locations, attributes(main actions,

TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western clinical uses,

combinations, contraindications, etc).

 

To be of practical use to clinicians / researchers, these databases would

need to use a standardised TERMINOLOGY. Alternatively, a complex

THESAURUS, listing all the synonyms for each concept (similar to the

MsSH system in Medline), would need to interface between the user

and the Dbs.

 

A Front-End Menu, to guide the clinician systematically through a

detailed case-questionnaire, would prompt for, and collate, the relevant

clinical data and present them to Db1 for the " top five " (most probable)

" best fits " .

 

With this system, ten clinicians, working from the menu, should come up

with 10 similar " short-listed possible Syndrome Dxs " .

 

By further questioning / examination of the patient (based on Db data for

each of the " most probable Syndromes " ), the clinicians should reach the

most probable Dx.

 

Then, by presenting THAT Dx to Dbs 2, 3, 4, they should identify the

most likely herbs, formulas and acupuncture points to use.

 

Because Pulse Dx is regarded as very important by many TCM

practitioners, I have included it here. But Pulse Dx is (IMO) very

subjective and different Pulse Takers can come up with different

impressions as to the Dx.

 

Therefore, I would ALSO have an " over-ride " on the system that would

eliminate Pulse Dx (and other practitioner-subjective info) and re-run the

analysis, based on the more objective S & Ss + the PATIENT's subjective

info.

 

That way, one could compare TWO outputs, one from ALL the inputted

data, and one with practitioner-subjective data excluded.

 

I am heading for the bunker as I sense incoming missiles from those

who reckon that computers cannot match their expertise and intuition...

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

<snip>

> Although I think that a TCM database would have its advantages, I'm

> weary as to its protocols

Hi Attilio!

 

I have indeed looked at these problems. I intend the case study /

treatment outcome database to be used statistically, not as RCT.

Statistics based on a huge population are significant. As the program is

used the population will become huge indeed. The dark side will always

have its certain percentage of naysayers, no matter how we do it.

 

I also think we can eventually include every style in the program, and

let the practitioner choose his/her preference. So we will have the

common stuff cookbooked as well as a " close " matching search for the

not-so-common. If the practitioner wants to enter his or her own style,

this will also be allowed and will be recorded as such.

 

As I said, I have been at it for ten years and I have quite a bit of

content already. If someone wants to do all 5E or whatever, they will

have the opportunity to type it in as it comes up - I have some 5E

already. After they type it in once, it will be in their choices forever

if they back up. If they do not back up, until their hard drive cacks.

If they submit their customizations to the central server it will be

peer-reviewed and if appropriate added to everyone's choices.

 

This is going to be a dynamic, web based database. Classic, modern, 5E,

Japanese, Dr. So-and-so - each would just be an additional field in the

table. You can add fields forever and provided you have the content the

cells in the field will be populated, but you may have to use a bigger

monitor to see it all at once. :-)

 

If someone wanted to do *only* 5E, for example, he/she could set the

program to show only 5E. Wouldn't have as much content, obviously, but

it could be set that way. Also, a 5E user could add his/her own content

on-the-fly as well.

 

We can even do pseudo-differentiation with a database. This will get

better as the program is used and folks add their inputs.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio

 

> Hi Phil, Incoming....

 

MIssed!

 

> Although I think that a TCM database would have its advantages, I'm

> weary as to its protocols and if it would actually work. Firstly, as

> there are different schools of thought in TCM, how would the database

> be loaded, according to what construct, modern PRC TCM or the

> classics? Does anyone really know the difference between modern PRC and

> the classics BTW? Then you've got the tongue, pulse and facial

> observation subjectiveness as well. And then you've got the

> subjectivenss of someone putting that all together.

 

Computers and databases operate on the GIGO Law - Garbage In,

Garbage Out.

 

The Dbs would be as good (or bad) as the data loaded. So what to

load?

 

We could start the SYNDROME Db with the most commonly seen TCM

patterns and their most commonly agreed S & Ss, flagging the input data

on " OBJECTIVE S & Ss " + patient's subjective info as " Core

( " OBJECTIVE " ) Data. The remaining data (tongue, pulse and facial

observation, could be flagged as " SUBJECTIVE " for alternative analysis

later.

 

The " SINGLE HERB " , " HERB FORMULAS " and " ACUPUNCTURE " Dbs

could be loaded with " agreed prescriptions " for specific Syndromes.

 

> Secondly, it would rest alot on the style of the practitioner asking

> the questions, how much they ask, the way they ask, how the patient

> feels comfortable with the doctor, etc.

 

The idea of a Front-End Menu is to prompt the practitioner to go

systematically through a very detailed case history & TCM Exam.

 

> If you use this in a RCT, its gonna have so many unfactored variables

> in it, that it would undermine the study and weaken the results. Don't

> get me wrong, I like the idea, I just don't see how it would work.

> Hopefully Pete has looked at these problems and taken them into

> account in this software program. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor

> of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

> 07786198900 attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

Whatever the failings of such a system, IMO it would be MUCH more

consistent in its " conclusions " tham each of, say, 10 TCM clinicians

presented with the same case independently.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

 

 

 

 

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

 

 

 

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Hi Attilio

>

>

>> Hi Phil, Incoming....

>

>

> MIssed!

 

Hi Dr. Phil!

 

I like your thinking on this, I have been working along these lines

myself. You put it into words very well.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

I really don't agree. Any database is as good as the stuff you put into it and

this is the main flaw. Although we are know TCM we don't always ask the same

questions. To get around this the database should inforce a questionaire which

should be completed with the patient infront of you. Even though, you could

still end up with gaps in the information which may confuse the database and

produce a wrong diagnosis. This is the same problem Pete's software system is

gonna have. I still think a panel of experts will be better.

 

Attilio

 

< wrote:

Hi Attilio

 

> Hi Phil, Incoming....

 

MIssed!

 

> Although I think that a TCM database would have its advantages, I'm

> weary as to its protocols and if it would actually work. Firstly, as

> there are different schools of thought in TCM, how would the database

> be loaded, according to what construct, modern PRC TCM or the

> classics? Does anyone really know the difference between modern PRC and

> the classics BTW? Then you've got the tongue, pulse and facial

> observation subjectiveness as well. And then you've got the

> subjectivenss of someone putting that all together.

 

Computers and databases operate on the GIGO Law - Garbage In,

Garbage Out.

 

The Dbs would be as good (or bad) as the data loaded. So what to

load?

 

We could start the SYNDROME Db with the most commonly seen TCM

patterns and their most commonly agreed S & Ss, flagging the input data

on " OBJECTIVE S & Ss " + patient's subjective info as " Core

( " OBJECTIVE " ) Data. The remaining data (tongue, pulse and facial

observation, could be flagged as " SUBJECTIVE " for alternative analysis

later.

 

The " SINGLE HERB " , " HERB FORMULAS " and " ACUPUNCTURE " Dbs

could be loaded with " agreed prescriptions " for specific Syndromes.

 

> Secondly, it would rest alot on the style of the practitioner asking

> the questions, how much they ask, the way they ask, how the patient

> feels comfortable with the doctor, etc.

 

The idea of a Front-End Menu is to prompt the practitioner to go

systematically through a very detailed case history & TCM Exam.

 

> If you use this in a RCT, its gonna have so many unfactored variables

> in it, that it would undermine the study and weaken the results. Don't

> get me wrong, I like the idea, I just don't see how it would work.

> Hopefully Pete has looked at these problems and taken them into

> account in this software program. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor

> of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

> 07786198900 attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

Whatever the failings of such a system, IMO it would be MUCH more

consistent in its " conclusions " tham each of, say, 10 TCM clinicians

presented with the same case independently.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

 

 

 

 

Ireland.

Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0)

 

 

 

" Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " -

Chinese Proverb

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> I really don't agree. Any database is as good as the stuff you put

> into it and this is the main flaw. Although we are know TCM we don't

> always ask the same questions. To get around this the database should

> inforce a questionaire which should be completed with the patient

> infront of you. Even though, you could still end up with gaps in the

> information which may confuse the database and produce a wrong

> diagnosis. This is the same problem Pete's software system is gonna

> have. I still think a panel of experts will be better.

 

Hi Attilio!

 

That is what I am trying to do. Put the stuff on the list and get

comments. I already have from time to time and when I do people ignore

it :-( for the most part.

 

Every now and then I even get flamed, as you may recall. Maybe I should

set up a smaller list and let you-all vote as to who is an expert and

only send that list of elected experts the stuff?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

I like your idea, I have a couple of years thinking in this, I made some

approaches in experts systems, but my needs send me to first develop a

acupoint database (in Spanish) for pc and handheld, I already finish it and

I'd like to help you in your project.

I think that is very important to have a lot of parameterized information

for develop better treatments and protocols for the wellness of our

patients.

We never going to replace the human, but we can help him to do a better

work.

 

Regards,

Fernando Dougnac

 

P.D: My experience told me that maybe is better start with a small

objective. Perhaps a protocol to share patient information?

 

 

-----Mensaje original-----

De: Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine En nombre de Phil

Rogers

Enviado el: martes, 21 de junio de 2005 20:57

Para: Chinese Medicine

Asunto: RE: Computer Dbs and Acupuncture/CHM Research Protocols

 

Hi Attilio, Alon, Mike, & All,

 

> Alon, So what suggestions do you have in standardising the variability

> of practitioner diagnosis and treatment within a RCT setting? Warm

> regards, Attilio D'Alberto

 

I have been wrestling with this problem for years. It is clear to me that a

TCM Dx and Tx depend on sophisticated " Pattern Matching " , a task that

powerful computers are designed to do.

 

My conclusion is that we need to construct an expert database with 4

main sub-databases:

 

1. SYNDROME (PATTERN) Db: This will list all described Syndromes,

whether by 8 Principles, Zangfu/Channel Theory, Six Levels, 4 Levels

(Qi-Xue; Ying-Wei); or whatever.

 

All accepted S & Ss for each Syndrome would be listed, including data on

aversions, tasts, smell, pulse, etc

 

2. SINGLE HERB DB: listing the herb name(s) in (Hanzi (simple and

formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its known attributes

(class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western

clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications, etc);

 

3. HERBAL FORMULA DB: listing the Formula name(s) in (Hanzi

(simple and formal), pinyin, English, Latin, Pharma name, and all its

known attributes (class, main actions, TCM uses, with Syndromes

specified, western clinical uses, combinations, dose, contraindications,

etc);

 

4. ACUPUNCTURE Db: Listing all the channel points, earpoints, scalp

points, extra points, etc., and their locations, attributes(main actions,

TCM uses, with Syndromes specified, western clinical uses,

combinations, contraindications, etc).

 

To be of practical use to clinicians / researchers, these databases would

need to use a standardised TERMINOLOGY. Alternatively, a complex

THESAURUS, listing all the synonyms for each concept (similar to the

MsSH system in Medline), would need to interface between the user

and the Dbs.

 

A Front-End Menu, to guide the clinician systematically through a

detailed case-questionnaire, would prompt for, and collate, the relevant

clinical data and present them to Db1 for the " top five " (most probable)

" best fits " .

 

With this system, ten clinicians, working from the menu, should come up

with 10 similar " short-listed possible Syndrome Dxs " .

 

By further questioning / examination of the patient (based on Db data for

each of the " most probable Syndromes " ), the clinicians should reach the

most probable Dx.

 

Then, by presenting THAT Dx to Dbs 2, 3, 4, they should identify the

most likely herbs, formulas and acupuncture points to use.

 

Because Pulse Dx is regarded as very important by many TCM

practitioners, I have included it here. But Pulse Dx is (IMO) very

subjective and different Pulse Takers can come up with different

impressions as to the Dx.

 

Therefore, I would ALSO have an " over-ride " on the system that would

eliminate Pulse Dx (and other practitioner-subjective info) and re-run the

analysis, based on the more objective S & Ss + the PATIENT's subjective

info.

 

That way, one could compare TWO outputs, one from ALL the inputted

data, and one with practitioner-subjective data excluded.

 

I am heading for the bunker as I sense incoming missiles from those

who reckon that computers cannot match their expertise and intuition...

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hI Pete & aPP,

 

Pete wrote:

> That is what I am trying to do. Put the stuff on the list and get

> comments. I already have from time to time and when I do people ignore

> it :-( for the most part. Every now and then I even get flamed, as you

> may recall. Maybe I should set up a smaller list and let you-all vote

> as to who is an expert and only send that list of elected experts the

> stuff? Regards, Pete

 

Pete, have you designed a form (formatted data-reception document) to

capture data from the experts in a systematic way?

 

Can you send me a copy of the form, or the URL that has it?

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Fernando & Pete,

 

Fernando Dougnac wrote:

> I like your idea, I have a couple of years thinking in this, I made

> some approaches in experts systems, but my needs send me to first

> develop a acupoint database (in Spanish) for pc and handheld, I

> already finish it and I'd like to help you in your project. I think

> that is very important to have a lot of parameterized information for

> develop better treatments and protocols for the wellness of our

> patients. We never going to replace the human, but we can help him to

> do a better work. Regards, Fernando Dougnac P.S: My experience told me

> that maybe is better start with a small objective. Perhaps a protocol

> to share patient information?

 

Pete & Fernando, you are welcome to include my acupoints database

at http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/ff.htm [and linked pages] if you

wish.

 

Unfortunately, it has no TCM Patterns listed; it is mainly a western

symptomatic approach.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> hI Pete & aPP,

>

> Pete wrote:

>

>> That is what I am trying to do. Put the stuff on the list and get

>> comments. I already have from time to time and when I do people

>> ignore it :-( for the most part. Every now and then I even get

>> flamed, as you may recall. Maybe I should set up a smaller list and

>> let you-all vote as to who is an expert and only send that list of

>> elected experts the stuff? Regards, Pete

>

>

> Pete, have you designed a form (formatted data-reception document) to

> capture data from the experts in a systematic way?

 

Hi Dr. Phil!

 

Not as such. Posted my form that I use with patients a while ago, no one

offered any revisions. Could eventually do this, though.

 

Several programmers are interested in the project. One is working on a

clinic app that the user could modify and our central server would

capture the modifications for peer review. I don't want to disturb his

train of thought. Let him do what he has in mind and then evaluate.

 

Another programmer is working with the same data on a different

approach, using student programmers as a class project. Others are

working independently and I am not sure what they are doing on this

project, if anything.

 

As soon as someone has something I will put it somewhere where everyone

can look at it. My contribution was content, the programmers are working

on controls.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Hi Fernando & Pete,

>

> Fernando Dougnac wrote:

>

>>I like your idea, I have a couple of years thinking in this, I made

>>some approaches in experts systems, but my needs send me to first

>>develop a acupoint database (in Spanish) for pc and handheld, I

>>already finish it and I'd like to help you in your project. I think

>>that is very important to have a lot of parameterized information for

>>develop better treatments and protocols for the wellness of our

>>patients. We never going to replace the human, but we can help him to

>>do a better work. Regards, Fernando Dougnac P.S: My experience told me

>>that maybe is better start with a small objective. Perhaps a protocol

>>to share patient information?

>

>

> Pete & Fernando, you are welcome to include my acupoints database

> at http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/ff.htm [and linked pages] if you

> wish.

 

Hi Dr. Phil!

 

Thanks, forwarded to programmers.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Fernando Dougnac wrote:

> I like your idea, I have a couple of years thinking in this, I made some

> approaches in experts systems, but my needs send me to first develop a

> acupoint database (in Spanish) for pc and handheld, I already finish it and

> I'd like to help you in your project.

> I think that is very important to have a lot of parameterized information

> for develop better treatments and protocols for the wellness of our

> patients.

> We never going to replace the human, but we can help him to do a better

> work.

 

Hi Fernando!

 

Thanks. If you like you can (as time permits) translate the whole thing

into Spanish.

 

Oh, yes, we are starting small. We will be including screens that each

user can use to input his/her own data.

 

Regards,

 

Pete