Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi Sharon, Could you please share the Matsumoto adrenal treatment protocol. Speaking of blown out adrenals! I currently have a 30 year old male patient that is stressed to the hilt, can't sleep, suffers from OCD, suffers from depression, impotence, smokes, drinks and basically on the fast track to a major meltdown. His job is majorly stressful, he recently ended a significant relationship, lives alone, just bought a house and is a classic type A personality. He has the Kidney Yin pulse of a post menopausal woman and his Heart pulse is practically non-existent with an almost excess Liver pulse. His Kidney Yang pulse is much stronger than his Kidney Yin, but is very wiry (a classic " adrenal " pulse), Spleen feels good, but Lung has a " tired " feel to it. He is way out of balance energetically, which I can feel with the pulses alone. I'm trying to get him to take herbs, modify his diet and do some emotional work, but he just wants acupuncture. His tongue looks pretty normal, pale red, slightly thick white coating in the Spleen and Kidney root. He was having great success with an acupuncture Dr. in Michigan when he was visiting his mother. This doc. was using a lot of electricity and laser on him and also seeing him twice a day sometimes. I'm trying to get the treatment protocols this other doctor was using, but he will not return my calls. I've done an aggressive energy treatment while also tonifying Kid, Sp and Liver. I've done Yin Tang, Ear NADA protocol, St-25, Ren-4, Ren-12, Ren-15, Ren-17 with needles, electricity and laser plus a dozen or so other Kidney (Kid-3, 7, 9) Spleen (Sp-3, 6, 10) and Liver (Liv-3) points (also LI-4, SI-3, SJ-5, Lu-7, Lu-9, LI-11). He may get an hour or two of relief after a treatment, but then gets right back into his routine. I haven't had much success with tonifying his Yin with acupuncture (it works wonders with some patients) and he doesn't seem too interested in taking herbs right now even after explaining how limiting that makes my treatments. He likes a lot of needles and strong stimulation, basically very Yang. I have talked to him about my concerns, but he is confident that I can reproduce the great results he was getting with the other acupuncturist. I'm not so sure as I feel he is looking for someone to " fix " him and not taking personal responsibility for his health and wellbeing. I want to help this guy, but I get the feeling that I am on a slippery slope and that even the best acupuncture treatments in the world won't counteract his lifestyle. I'm open to any kind of treatment that may make a breakthrough with him. He is willing to see me 3 times a week, and right now I am his only " positive " support apart from his mother who is paying for the treatments, which is another possible issue. His mother is the one that found me and after talking with her on the phone she felt I was the best acupuncturist she talked to in the area to help her son. Thanks! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 The points I use are a Matsumoto adrenal treatment, and I added the notion of getting them to connect to their stuff. I suppose any adrenal treatment protocol would do. Best wishes, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi Chris, Wow what a case! From what you were saying, I did get the feeling of him wanting someone to keep him on the track he is currently running on. I see that a bit too, where any tonification is just used to support the current coping mechanism. I wonder about what I am doing in such circumstances. For me it has felt like this person is on a collision course, like a runaway train, and somewhere down the track he is going run into something that his current coping mechanism is not going to be able to handle. I suppose we could call this hitting rock bottom. Now the pulses Matsumoto gives are Rapid thin and wiry, or Sinking and slow, she calls it Master Nagano Dx for adrenal exhaustion. The rest of what follows is from seminar notes and misses the visual of watching the treatment process so you will probably need to feel your way. Hope it helps! Adrenal Exhaustion Protocol - trauma, infection, inflammation, surgical procedures, drugs and medications, restrainment, debilitating disease, lack of oxygen Target area - Kd 16 around navel at 45 degrees (8 and 4 o'clock) - Adrenal Reflex - Renal Artery Reflex Kd 16 area may palpate as hard like a stone - especially for meds taking or surgery patient; or it may feel tight Kid 27 may feel tender; look for gummy feeling at interior border of the sterno-clavical joint When doing local needling at the navel, the more onion like layers the more the number of treatments Step 1. Kd 6, Kd 27 and Lu 5 Kd 6 usually 10 degree insertion toward the calcaneus tendon some times 90 degrees works better Kd 27 10 degree insertion towards the manubrium of the sternum. Find the gummy feeling Lu 5 is usually needled 45 degrees downward with the flow of the channel; pt can be more superior, inferior or lateral. Step 2 Sp 9, GB 25 applied when Step 2 release is less than 50-60% - Dai Mai release, and suggests a structural imbalance of abdominal muscles and linea alba Sp 9 is needled at about 10-15 degrees upwards with the mai flow - look for and needle into gummy feel. If effective underlying Spleen Xu. GB 25 is palpated and needled towards spine, at the location that relieves umbilicus. If GB effective may suggest underlying Kd Xu. Step 3 Only applied when the umbilicus is not totally released by Steps 1 and 2 At the 8 and 4 o'clock one at a time, insert to the depth of the first layer (that onion concept written about earlier) and wait 1-2 minutes before attempting next layer, repeat. Stone like naval area - use moxa etc Magnets Nth pole Kd 16 Sth Kd 27, stimulate electrically or mechanically. (I'm not certain to what she is referring her exactly as I don't usually find I need to go this far in the treatment also I can't give a reference to her Nth and Sth pole in magnets). Best wishes, Chris said...... I'm not so sure as I feel he is looking for someone to " fix " him and not taking personal responsibility for his health and wellbeing. I want to help this guy, but I get the feeling that I am on a slippery slope and that even the best acupuncture treatments in the world won't counteract his lifestyle. I'm open to any kind of treatment that may make a breakthrough with him. He is willing to see me 3 times a week, and right now I am his only " positive " support apart from his mother who is paying for the treatments, which is another possible issue. His mother is the one that found me and after talking with her on the phone she felt I was the best acupuncturist she talked to in the area to help her son. Thanks! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi Chris - here's a first cup of coffee in the morning hit: if you treat the way your patient wants, you will become responsible for his balance, he will rely on you rather than on himself. If he were my patient, a major treatment goal would be to get him - through the needles, through talking, something - to see that I am not a lifestyle adjunct. With all compassion for him, his Will is in overdrive and he needs to find a way to take responsibility for how he contributes to at least some of his health problems. I would look to his Water, his Will and try to see what part Fear is playing in his life. Karen ps maybe he would agree to take time off after a treatment - or see him late in the day? from such little steps... Quoting " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler: > Hi Sharon, > > Could you please share the Matsumoto adrenal treatment protocol. > > Speaking of blown out adrenals! I currently have a 30 year old male > patient that is stressed to the hilt, can't sleep, suffers from OCD, > suffers from depression, impotence, smokes, drinks and basically on the > fast track to a major meltdown. His job is majorly stressful, he > recently ended a significant relationship, lives alone, just bought a > house and is a classic type A personality. > > He has the Kidney Yin pulse of a post menopausal woman and his Heart > pulse is practically non-existent with an almost excess Liver pulse. > His Kidney Yang pulse is much stronger than his Kidney Yin, but is very > wiry (a classic " adrenal " pulse), Spleen feels good, but Lung has a > " tired " feel to it. He is way out of balance energetically, which I can > feel with the pulses alone. I'm trying to get him to take herbs, modify > his diet and do some emotional work, but he just wants acupuncture. His > tongue looks pretty normal, pale red, slightly thick white coating in > the Spleen and Kidney root. > > He was having great success with an acupuncture Dr. in Michigan when he > was visiting his mother. This doc. was using a lot of electricity and > laser on him and also seeing him twice a day sometimes. I'm trying to > get the treatment protocols this other doctor was using, but he will not > return my calls. > > I've done an aggressive energy treatment while also tonifying Kid, Sp > and Liver. I've done Yin Tang, Ear NADA protocol, St-25, Ren-4, Ren-12, > Ren-15, Ren-17 with needles, electricity and laser plus a dozen or so > other Kidney (Kid-3, 7, 9) Spleen (Sp-3, 6, 10) and Liver (Liv-3) points > (also LI-4, SI-3, SJ-5, Lu-7, Lu-9, LI-11). He may get an hour or two > of relief after a treatment, but then gets right back into his routine. > I haven't had much success with tonifying his Yin with acupuncture (it > works wonders with some patients) and he doesn't seem too interested in > taking herbs right now even after explaining how limiting that makes my > treatments. He likes a lot of needles and strong stimulation, > basically very Yang. > > I have talked to him about my concerns, but he is confident that I can > reproduce the great results he was getting with the other acupuncturist. > I'm not so sure as I feel he is looking for someone to " fix " him and not > taking personal responsibility for his health and wellbeing. > > I want to help this guy, but I get the feeling that I am on a slippery > slope and that even the best acupuncture treatments in the world won't > counteract his lifestyle. I'm open to any kind of treatment that may > make a breakthrough with him. He is willing to see me 3 times a week, > and right now I am his only " positive " support apart from his mother who > is paying for the treatments, which is another possible issue. His > mother is the one that found me and after talking with her on the phone > she felt I was the best acupuncturist she talked to in the area to help > her son. > > Thanks! > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > > The points I use are a Matsumoto adrenal treatment, and I added the > notion > of getting them to connect to their stuff. I suppose any adrenal > treatment > protocol would do. > Best wishes, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Thanks Sharon: Anne Sharon wrote: > Hi Chris, > Wow what a case! > > >From what you were saying, I did get the feeling of him wanting > someone to > keep him on the track he is currently running on. > > I see that a bit too, where any tonification is just used to support the > current coping mechanism. I wonder about what I am doing in such > circumstances. For me it has felt like this person is on a collision > course, like a runaway train, and somewhere down the track he is going run > into something that his current coping mechanism is not going to be > able to > handle. I suppose we could call this hitting rock bottom. > > Now the pulses Matsumoto gives are Rapid thin and wiry, or Sinking and > slow, > she calls it Master Nagano Dx for adrenal exhaustion. The rest of what > follows is from seminar notes and misses the visual of watching the > treatment process so you will probably need to feel your way. Hope it > helps! > > Adrenal Exhaustion Protocol - trauma, infection, inflammation, surgical > procedures, drugs and medications, restrainment, debilitating disease, > lack > of oxygen > Target area - Kd 16 around navel at 45 degrees (8 and 4 o'clock) - Adrenal > Reflex - Renal Artery Reflex > > Kd 16 area may palpate as hard like a stone - especially for meds > taking or > surgery patient; or it may feel tight > Kid 27 may feel tender; look for gummy feeling at interior border of the > sterno-clavical joint > When doing local needling at the navel, the more onion like layers the > more > the number of treatments > > Step 1. Kd 6, Kd 27 and Lu 5 > Kd 6 usually 10 degree insertion toward the calcaneus tendon some times 90 > degrees works better > Kd 27 10 degree insertion towards the manubrium of the sternum. Find the > gummy feeling > Lu 5 is usually needled 45 degrees downward with the flow of the > channel; pt > can be more superior, inferior or lateral. > > Step 2 Sp 9, GB 25 applied when Step 2 release is less than 50-60% - > Dai Mai > release, and suggests a structural imbalance of abdominal muscles and > linea > alba > Sp 9 is needled at about 10-15 degrees upwards with the mai flow - > look for > and needle into gummy feel. If effective underlying Spleen Xu. > GB 25 is palpated and needled towards spine, at the location that relieves > umbilicus. If GB effective may suggest underlying Kd Xu. > > Step 3 Only applied when the umbilicus is not totally released by Steps 1 > and 2 > At the 8 and 4 o'clock one at a time, insert to the depth of the first > layer > (that onion concept written about earlier) and wait 1-2 minutes before > attempting next layer, repeat. > Stone like naval area - use moxa etc > Magnets Nth pole Kd 16 Sth Kd 27, stimulate electrically or mechanically. > (I'm not certain to what she is referring her exactly as I don't usually > find I need to go this far in the treatment also I can't give a > reference to > her Nth and Sth pole in magnets). > > > Best wishes, > > > Chris said...... > I'm not so sure as I feel he is looking for someone to " fix " him and not > taking personal responsibility for his health and wellbeing. > > I want to help this guy, but I get the feeling that I am on a slippery > slope and that even the best acupuncture treatments in the world won't > counteract his lifestyle. I'm open to any kind of treatment that may > make a breakthrough with him. He is willing to see me 3 times a week, > and right now I am his only " positive " support apart from his mother who > is paying for the treatments, which is another possible issue. His > mother is the one that found me and after talking with her on the phone > she felt I was the best acupuncturist she talked to in the area to help > her son. > > Thanks! > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Hi Christopher! Just a couple of practical two-cents worth:- When he refuses your various lifestyle recommendations, you could try to persuade him to make just *one* or *two* lifestyle changes that are *very small*, but clearly identifiable and can be focussed on. Those one or two lifestyle changes might produce a change in his condition in a week or two and that revelation might be a wake up call for him. Another idea is to give him a guided meditation tape/CD. This might be a great *user-friendly* way of getting him *started* in the world of relaxation and meditation (without him having to go to a qigong master for lessons). If his stressful job is of the executive office worker type, you might be able to present this as something trendy to his profession!? You know, the latest stress-busting trend, along with stress balls and mini zen gardens, etc, etc... All the best, David Chinese Medicine , " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler@a...> wrote: > Hi Sharon, > > Could you please share the Matsumoto adrenal treatment protocol. > > Speaking of blown out adrenals! I currently have a 30 year old male > patient that is stressed to the hilt, can't sleep, suffers from OCD, > suffers from depression, impotence, smokes, drinks and basically on the > fast track to a major meltdown. His job is majorly stressful, he > recently ended a significant relationship, lives alone, just bought a > house and is a classic type A personality. > > He has the Kidney Yin pulse of a post menopausal woman and his Heart > pulse is practically non-existent with an almost excess Liver pulse. > His Kidney Yang pulse is much stronger than his Kidney Yin, but is very > wiry (a classic " adrenal " pulse), Spleen feels good, but Lung has a > " tired " feel to it. He is way out of balance energetically, which I can > feel with the pulses alone. I'm trying to get him to take herbs, modify > his diet and do some emotional work, but he just wants acupuncture. His > tongue looks pretty normal, pale red, slightly thick white coating in > the Spleen and Kidney root. > > He was having great success with an acupuncture Dr. in Michigan when he > was visiting his mother. This doc. was using a lot of electricity and > laser on him and also seeing him twice a day sometimes. I'm trying to > get the treatment protocols this other doctor was using, but he will not > return my calls. > > I've done an aggressive energy treatment while also tonifying Kid, Sp > and Liver. I've done Yin Tang, Ear NADA protocol, St-25, Ren-4, Ren-12, > Ren-15, Ren-17 with needles, electricity and laser plus a dozen or so > other Kidney (Kid-3, 7, 9) Spleen (Sp-3, 6, 10) and Liver (Liv-3) points > (also LI-4, SI-3, SJ-5, Lu-7, Lu-9, LI-11). He may get an hour or two > of relief after a treatment, but then gets right back into his routine. > I haven't had much success with tonifying his Yin with acupuncture (it > works wonders with some patients) and he doesn't seem too interested in > taking herbs right now even after explaining how limiting that makes my > treatments. He likes a lot of needles and strong stimulation, > basically very Yang. > > I have talked to him about my concerns, but he is confident that I can > reproduce the great results he was getting with the other acupuncturist. > I'm not so sure as I feel he is looking for someone to " fix " him and not > taking personal responsibility for his health and wellbeing. > > I want to help this guy, but I get the feeling that I am on a slippery > slope and that even the best acupuncture treatments in the world won't > counteract his lifestyle. I'm open to any kind of treatment that may > make a breakthrough with him. He is willing to see me 3 times a week, > and right now I am his only " positive " support apart from his mother who > is paying for the treatments, which is another possible issue. His > mother is the one that found me and after talking with her on the phone > she felt I was the best acupuncturist she talked to in the area to help > her son. > > Thanks! > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > > The points I use are a Matsumoto adrenal treatment, and I added the > notion > of getting them to connect to their stuff. I suppose any adrenal > treatment > protocol would do. > Best wishes, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Thanks David, Good advice. Being a hypnotherapist I have had plans on a stress reduction / relaxation CD for some time, but the demands of family and building a practice have so far made that not possible. I think it is an excellent idea in fact. I think I need to make the time to get this done. During my last treatment with this patient, he came in talking about how he has not held up his end of the bargain. He finally read a link to a webpage (http://www.radiantrecovery.com/) that I knew could help him, if he would only take 15 minutes to read it (before he said that he didn't read much and so when I recommended the book, he said honestly he wouldn't read it). Now his is going to buy the book and said he will start the program. He also said that his smoking is probably the number 1 health issue for him right now and I would agree. He has committed to set a date to end his smoking when he travels back to Michigan to visit with his mom with the support of the other acupuncturist. I told him I thought that was an excellent idea and I would support him in anyway I could to that end. Something shifted in the last treatment I did with him I think. He realized that he has to do the work himself and take responsibility for his life. Perhaps it was the acupuncture, perhaps something else, I don't know. Nice to see the shift, regardless of how it occurred. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of David Gordon Friday, June 03, 2005 11:51 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Adrenal treatment Hi Christopher! Just a couple of practical two-cents worth:- When he refuses your various lifestyle recommendations, you could try to persuade him to make just *one* or *two* lifestyle changes that are *very small*, but clearly identifiable and can be focussed on. Those one or two lifestyle changes might produce a change in his condition in a week or two and that revelation might be a wake up call for him. Another idea is to give him a guided meditation tape/CD. This might be a great *user-friendly* way of getting him *started* in the world of relaxation and meditation (without him having to go to a qigong master for lessons). If his stressful job is of the executive office worker type, you might be able to present this as something trendy to his profession!? You know, the latest stress-busting trend, along with stress balls and mini zen gardens, etc, etc... All the best, David Chinese Medicine , " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler@a...> wrote: > Hi Sharon, > > Could you please share the Matsumoto adrenal treatment protocol. > > Speaking of blown out adrenals! I currently have a 30 year old male > patient that is stressed to the hilt, can't sleep, suffers from OCD, > suffers from depression, impotence, smokes, drinks and basically on the > fast track to a major meltdown. His job is majorly stressful, he > recently ended a significant relationship, lives alone, just bought a > house and is a classic type A personality. > > He has the Kidney Yin pulse of a post menopausal woman and his Heart > pulse is practically non-existent with an almost excess Liver pulse. > His Kidney Yang pulse is much stronger than his Kidney Yin, but is very > wiry (a classic " adrenal " pulse), Spleen feels good, but Lung has a > " tired " feel to it. He is way out of balance energetically, which I can > feel with the pulses alone. I'm trying to get him to take herbs, modify > his diet and do some emotional work, but he just wants acupuncture. His > tongue looks pretty normal, pale red, slightly thick white coating in > the Spleen and Kidney root. > > He was having great success with an acupuncture Dr. in Michigan when he > was visiting his mother. This doc. was using a lot of electricity and > laser on him and also seeing him twice a day sometimes. I'm trying to > get the treatment protocols this other doctor was using, but he will not > return my calls. > > I've done an aggressive energy treatment while also tonifying Kid, Sp > and Liver. I've done Yin Tang, Ear NADA protocol, St-25, Ren-4, Ren-12, > Ren-15, Ren-17 with needles, electricity and laser plus a dozen or so > other Kidney (Kid-3, 7, 9) Spleen (Sp-3, 6, 10) and Liver (Liv-3) points > (also LI-4, SI-3, SJ-5, Lu-7, Lu-9, LI-11). He may get an hour or two > of relief after a treatment, but then gets right back into his routine. > I haven't had much success with tonifying his Yin with acupuncture (it > works wonders with some patients) and he doesn't seem too interested in > taking herbs right now even after explaining how limiting that makes my > treatments. He likes a lot of needles and strong stimulation, > basically very Yang. > > I have talked to him about my concerns, but he is confident that I can > reproduce the great results he was getting with the other acupuncturist. > I'm not so sure as I feel he is looking for someone to " fix " him and not > taking personal responsibility for his health and wellbeing. > > I want to help this guy, but I get the feeling that I am on a slippery > slope and that even the best acupuncture treatments in the world won't > counteract his lifestyle. I'm open to any kind of treatment that may > make a breakthrough with him. He is willing to see me 3 times a week, > and right now I am his only " positive " support apart from his mother who > is paying for the treatments, which is another possible issue. His > mother is the one that found me and after talking with her on the phone > she felt I was the best acupuncturist she talked to in the area to help > her son. > > Thanks! > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > > The points I use are a Matsumoto adrenal treatment, and I added the > notion > of getting them to connect to their stuff. I suppose any adrenal > treatment > protocol would do. > Best wishes, > http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. 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