Guest guest Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Hi David & All, > I am actually writing my thesis on Auriculotherapy and its treatment of > addiction (primarily chemical dependency). I came across your critique > while doing some web based article search (Can't recall where at the > moment, but i'm sure it would be the one your talking about). I found > it fascinating. Something that i am strongly trying to introduce into > the health care system here in Australia is Auriculotherapy. And i > believe the best method of this is through its efficacy in the > treatment / management of Herion and Crack/Cocaine. I was originally > introduced to Auricular Acupuncture at a very young age, mainly the > Chinese version, and it was Terry Olesons work that boosted my > interest and study of the European / Nogier system. It truely is an > excellent text. Thanks for the link, David White. Clinical Director / > Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & > Founder SydneyTCM The late Dr. Meg Patterson pioneered NET (Neuro-electric therapy) in the treatment of addictions. Those interested will find many references to her on Google. See: http://tinyurl.com/9ph6v Meg learned of the usefulness of acupuncture in addiction while working in the Tung Wah Hospital with Dr HL Wen. See one of Wen's papers at: http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=16554 The first book on NET that I know was: " Addictions Can Be Cured : the treatment of drug addiction " by Meg Patterson (Lion Publishing , 1975). She was a great person and correspondence with her in the early 1970s stimulated my interest in TCM. She died in 2002 after long post-stroke illness. No review or thesis on acupuncture and related methods in addiction would be complete without reference to Meg's work. May her Spirit find great peace. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 Hi Phil, Thankyou for that reference, i have come across some of megs work (that was referenced through someone elses work). Much appreciated. David. Chinese Medicine , " Phil Rogers " <@e...> wrote: > Hi David & All, > > > I am actually writing my thesis on Auriculotherapy and its treatment of > > addiction (primarily chemical dependency). I came across your critique > > while doing some web based article search (Can't recall where at the > > moment, but i'm sure it would be the one your talking about). I found > > it fascinating. Something that i am strongly trying to introduce into > > the health care system here in Australia is Auriculotherapy. And i > > believe the best method of this is through its efficacy in the > > treatment / management of Herion and Crack/Cocaine. I was originally > > introduced to Auricular Acupuncture at a very young age, mainly the > > Chinese version, and it was Terry Olesons work that boosted my > > interest and study of the European / Nogier system. It truely is an > > excellent text. Thanks for the link, David White. Clinical / > > Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Chinese Medicine > > Founder SydneyTCM > > The late Dr. Meg Patterson pioneered NET (Neuro-electric therapy) in > the treatment of addictions. Those interested will find many references > to her on Google. See: http://tinyurl.com/9ph6v > > Meg learned of the usefulness of acupuncture in addiction while working > in the Tung Wah Hospital with Dr HL Wen. See one of Wen's papers at: > http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=16554 > > The first book on NET that I know was: " Addictions Can Be Cured : the > treatment of drug addiction " by Meg Patterson (Lion Publishing , 1975). > > She was a great person and correspondence with her in the early 1970s > stimulated my interest in TCM. She died in 2002 after long post-stroke > illness. > > No review or thesis on acupuncture and related methods in addiction > would be complete without reference to Meg's work. > > May her Spirit find great peace. > Phil > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in terms of dollar value! So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long way off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an acupuncturist and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio at the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you do not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. RayFord Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional rural area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of the larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course as a test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes of things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a large scale health issue. It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples can radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in terms of dollar value! So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long way off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an acupuncturist and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio at the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you do not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. RayFord Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional rural area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of the larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course as a test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes of things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a large scale health issue. It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples can radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in terms of dollar value! So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long way off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an acupuncturist and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio at the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you do not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. RayFord Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional rural area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of the larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course as a test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes of things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a large scale health issue. It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples can radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in terms of dollar value! So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long way off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an acupuncturist and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio at the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you do not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. RayFord Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Dear Ray, We are all entitled to our perspectives and sharing them is great! However, I prefer my softly shared and not shoved down my neck. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 4:38 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional rural area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of the larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course as a test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes of things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a large scale health issue. It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples can radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in terms of dollar value! So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long way off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an acupuncturist and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio at the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you do not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. RayFord Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi Ray and all, I'm afraid I totally agree with Ray. That's the painful truth of our profession. It's a constant uphill battle. But to be honest I like a fight, being the underdog and if your the same, you'll get on ok. If you like to be spoon-fed patients, then this isn't the field for you. And it's true, any article that comes out with the word acupuncture on it doesn't mean its a step forward. We need quality studies of good methodological protocol otherwise they'll be slammed and not given any credit, which damages our profession. Alot of research as we know, ends up with a miss-mash of results, conclusions and recommendations. This is largely because of the studies inclusion/exclusion criteria. As it's set to WM disease analysis, it doesn't take into account any TCM pattern analysis. As there is no pattern analysis, how can you expect the treatment protocol to work on a number of different patterns. WM doesn't want to except the theories of TCM but rather just the needles, meridians and acupoints and its having a hard time excepting just them. We need to push the theories of TCM into the inclusion/exclusion criteria of a study, where a number of practitioners will agree on a pattern analysis of a particular group of patients. I know, practitioners agreeing on a pattern analysis, tuff one. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray ford 02 June 2005 07:38 Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional rural area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of the larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course as a test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes of things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a large scale health issue. It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples can radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in terms of dollar value! So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long way off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an acupuncturist and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio at the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you do not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. RayFord Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi David, I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being based in Sydney. Regards, Print Email Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with acupuncture. Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are in the process of detoxing. The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long said. " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Association says a hour long session a day can help. " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. Print Email Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil -- Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi Sharon, I recently recieved some info on just that, and, as Ray pointed out, heard it on the Radio. Thanks. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder: SydneyTCM Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi David, > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting being > based in Sydney. > Regards, > > > > > Print Email > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts with > acupuncture. > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users who are > in the process of detoxing. > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, but > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of treatment. > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using pharmacotherapy > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " Mr Long > said. > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage people to > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure that > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox phase and > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > Print Email > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release Date: 1/06/2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi Ray, We have'nt met but i taught some of those very students who you refer to at the Sydney Institute of Traditional , so HI! Unfortunately Dr. Woback didn't know jack$! & % about the subject he was asked to discuss. And i agree with your previous posts, that this negative bombardment that TCM recieves every time we " threaten " the medical " professionals " is ridiculous. That is why i plan on taking something positive to the right people, like Attilio said " fight back " . Acupuncture is a medical system to be reckond with! But i'll do it in a nice way. I believe that through the efficacy of Auriculotherapies treatment of addiction we can open up another avenue to gain the respect that Acupuncture deserves. Then from this, and other methods, teach and educate people about the TCM approach to healthcare. Kind Regards, David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " <rford@p...> wrote: > My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a > nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full > context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " > acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of > life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is > mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article > (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the > ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass > scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor > " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. > > To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and > head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a > very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that > acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down > in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. > Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical > profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care > for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be > devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray > ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my > arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. > If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right > ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them > not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see > what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive > thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. > Ray Ford > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. > > I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional > rural > area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of > the > larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course > as a > test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes > of > things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a > large > scale health issue. > > It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples > can > radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! > Best wishes, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray > ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed > that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was > completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the > area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for > the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours > methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in > terms of dollar value! > So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the > funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long > way > off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an > acupuncturist > and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio > at > the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you > do > not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. > RayFord > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Hi David, > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting > being > based in Sydney. > Regards, > > > > > Print Email > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts > with > acupuncture. > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users > who > are > in the process of detoxing. > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, > but > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of > treatment. > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using > pharmacotherapy > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " > Mr > Long > said. > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage > people to > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure > that > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox > phase > and > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > Print Email > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release Date: 1/06/2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Hi David, The interview was so one sided it was ridiculous, perhaps someone with your experience should be asked to comment on air. I have always failed miserably with drug addicts over the years and ALWAYS refer them on now. I am interested in this area but admit I am hopeless with these patients as they are so recalcitrant. Someone specialising as you do is a great idea and I offer to help you in any way I can including referring these patients who still turn up from time to time. When I was in New York Mark Seem told me that a drug rehab centre using acupuncture in the Bronx was showing VERY promising results and receiving money and a great deal of interest from the local health authorities. I don't have the details but I am sure you have the details. Dr Terry Olesen an expert in the field of auriculo-therapy has also told me that he believes that this area has a lot of promise but needs funds and quality studies. Good luck with your quest. Regards Ray ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sydneytcm Thursday, 2 June 2005 9:39 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi Ray, We have'nt met but i taught some of those very students who you refer to at the Sydney Institute of Traditional , so HI! Unfortunately Dr. Woback didn't know jack$! & % about the subject he was asked to discuss. And i agree with your previous posts, that this negative bombardment that TCM recieves every time we " threaten " the medical " professionals " is ridiculous. That is why i plan on taking something positive to the right people, like Attilio said " fight back " . Acupuncture is a medical system to be reckond with! But i'll do it in a nice way. I believe that through the efficacy of Auriculotherapies treatment of addiction we can open up another avenue to gain the respect that Acupuncture deserves. Then from this, and other methods, teach and educate people about the TCM approach to healthcare. Kind Regards, David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " <rford@p...> wrote: > My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a > nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full > context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " > acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of > life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is > mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article > (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the > ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass > scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor > " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. > > To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and > head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a > very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that > acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down > in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. > Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical > profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care > for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be > devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray > ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my > arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. > If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right > ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them > not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see > what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive > thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. > Ray Ford > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. > > I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional > rural > area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of > the > larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course > as a > test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes > of > things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a > large > scale health issue. > > It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples > can > radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! > Best wishes, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray > ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed > that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was > completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the > area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for > the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours > methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in > terms of dollar value! > So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the > funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long > way > off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an > acupuncturist > and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio > at > the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you > do > not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. > RayFord > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Hi David, > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting > being > based in Sydney. > Regards, > > > > > Print Email > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts > with > acupuncture. > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users > who > are > in the process of detoxing. > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, > but > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of > treatment. > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using > pharmacotherapy > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " > Mr > Long > said. > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage > people to > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure > that > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox > phase > and > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > Print Email > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release Date: 1/06/2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 It would then make sense to start in the beginning by ID of channels and points phsyiologically (Dr. Bonghan/Soh theories come to mind) and by other properties to create a single source of info (electromagnetic, light propagation, chemical flow etc). I would champion the idea of duplication of the Korean research into physical and chemical constructs of the channels. From here we should then consider examination of chemical contents and actions in the channels. Finally, studies that focus on what happens when things do not flow or there is a lack of channel flow. This should keep us busy for awhile. Then we add our own theory and ideas to the mix. This stuff makes much more sense to me when I combine the above in my discussions with students and to them as well. I see their light bulbs go off in their heads. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction >Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:08:28 +0100 > >Hi Ray and all, > >I'm afraid I totally agree with Ray. That's the painful truth of our >profession. It's a constant uphill battle. But to be honest I like a fight, >being the underdog and if your the same, you'll get on ok. If you like to >be >spoon-fed patients, then this isn't the field for you. > >And it's true, any article that comes out with the word acupuncture on it >doesn't mean its a step forward. We need quality studies of good >methodological protocol otherwise they'll be slammed and not given any >credit, which damages our profession. > >Alot of research as we know, ends up with a miss-mash of results, >conclusions and recommendations. This is largely because of the studies >inclusion/exclusion criteria. As it's set to WM disease analysis, it >doesn't >take into account any TCM pattern analysis. As there is no pattern >analysis, >how can you expect the treatment protocol to work on a number of different >patterns. WM doesn't want to except the theories of TCM but rather just the >needles, meridians and acupoints and its having a hard time excepting just >them. We need to push the theories of TCM into the inclusion/exclusion >criteria of a study, where a number of practitioners will agree on a >pattern >analysis of a particular group of patients. I know, practitioners agreeing >on a pattern analysis, tuff one. > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM >07786198900 >attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part >limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and >feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical >illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) > > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray ford >02 June 2005 07:38 >Chinese Medicine >RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > >My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a >nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full >context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " >acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of >life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is >mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article >(study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the >ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass >scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor > " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. > >To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and >head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a >very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that >acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down >in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. >Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical >profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care >for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be >devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray >ford >Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM >Chinese Medicine >RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > >Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my >arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. >If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right >ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them >not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see >what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive >thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. >Ray Ford > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of >Sharon >Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM >Chinese Medicine >RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > >Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. > >I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional >rural >area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of >the >larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course >as a >test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes >of >things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a >large >scale health issue. > >It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples >can >radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! >Best wishes, > > > > > Chinese Medicine >Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray >ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed > that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was > completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the > area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for > the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours > methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in > terms of dollar value! > So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the > funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long >way > off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an >acupuncturist > and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio >at > the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you >do > not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. > RayFord > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Hi David, > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting >being > based in Sydney. > Regards, > > > > > Print Email > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts > with > acupuncture. > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users >who > are > in the process of detoxing. > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, >but > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of > treatment. > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using > pharmacotherapy > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " >Mr > Long > said. > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage > people to > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure >that > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox >phase > and > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > Print Email > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 I wish to chime in and say that there will always be those who abhore others helping people and may in fact see us as competition. Just because we have a study, even a good one, does not mean that they will jump up and down and exholt us. These same individuals will most likely pick that one apart as well. If we try to constantly defend ourselves than we are loosing momentum and focus. The current system of WM is a thing of the past, outdated at best and dangerous at worst. They have not kept up with the times and become a cult unto themselves. Do not expect to change a fundamentalist easily nor expect that they have an open mind. They simply will decrease over time as more medical schools are changing curricula to keep up with changes in economic times and desires of the patients. In ending of my dissertation I would like to point out that the US office of technology assesment study on medicine found that only about 15-20% of procedures had any scientific validity. Makes one wonder, huh? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > <> >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction >Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:42:55 +1000 > >Dear Ray, >We are all entitled to our perspectives and sharing them is great! > >However, I prefer my softly shared and not shoved down my neck. >Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine >Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 4:38 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point in a > nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I believe full > context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " > acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond of > life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This is > mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article > (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets of the > ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass > scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor > " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. > > To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at best and > head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, a > very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that > acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot down > in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for ourselves. > Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical > profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my care > for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will truly be > devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of ray > ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been working my > arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. > If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go right > ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for them > not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer to see > what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of positive > thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. > Ray Ford > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. > > I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the regional > rural > area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had one of > the > larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first course > as a > test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger schemes > of > things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture on a > large > scale health issue. > > It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the ripples > can > radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! > Best wishes, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of ray > ford > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who claimed > that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " he was > completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he is the > area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my breath for > the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He favours > methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there is in > terms of dollar value! > So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in reality the > funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long long > way > off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an > acupuncturist > and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the radio > at > the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. If you > do > not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality check. > RayFord > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Sharon > Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Hi David, > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting > being > based in Sydney. > Regards, > > > > > Print Email > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug addicts > with > acupuncture. > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating users > who > are > in the process of detoxing. > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in Fairfield, > but > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of > treatment. > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it could > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using > pharmacotherapy > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional approach, " > Mr > Long > said. > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to encourage > people to > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make sure > that > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the detox > phase > and > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > Print Email > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Phil > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release 1/06/2005 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hi Ray, I'm not that experienced yet, not to be called a " specialist " any, but thankyou anyway. I would, of course, very much appreciate any referals in this field as this would build my experience. I agree these patients are very uncoperative, especially if its not at a specific " detox " centre. I would also kindly accept any help that you may be able to give, we should organise a " swap " of ideas one day. Warm regards, David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " <rford@p...> wrote: > Hi David, > The interview was so one sided it was ridiculous, perhaps someone with > your experience should be asked to comment on air. I have always failed > miserably with drug addicts over the years and ALWAYS refer them on now. > I am interested in this area but admit I am hopeless with these patients > as they are so recalcitrant. Someone specialising as you do is a great > idea and I offer to help you in any way I can including referring these > patients who still turn up from time to time. > When I was in New York Mark Seem told me that a drug rehab centre using > acupuncture in the Bronx was showing VERY promising results and > receiving money and a great deal of interest from the local health > authorities. I don't have the details but I am sure you have the > details. Dr Terry Olesen an expert in the field of auriculo-therapy has > also told me that he believes that this area has a lot of promise but > needs funds and quality studies. > Good luck with your quest. > Regards > Ray ford > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > sydneytcm > Thursday, 2 June 2005 9:39 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Hi Ray, > > We have'nt met but i taught some of those very students who you > refer to at the Sydney Institute of Traditional , so > HI! > > Unfortunately Dr. Woback didn't know jack$! & % about the subject he > was asked to discuss. And i agree with your previous posts, that > this negative bombardment that TCM recieves every time we " threaten " > the medical " professionals " is ridiculous. That is why i plan on > taking something positive to the right people, like Attilio > said " fight back " . > > Acupuncture is a medical system to be reckond with! > > But i'll do it in a nice way. I believe that through the efficacy of > Auriculotherapies treatment of addiction we can open up another > avenue to gain the respect that Acupuncture deserves. Then from > this, and other methods, teach and educate people about the TCM > approach to healthcare. > > Kind Regards, > > David White > Clinical Director / Practitioner > Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & > Founder SydneyTCM > > Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " > <rford@p...> wrote: > > My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point > in a > > nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I > believe full > > context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " > > acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond > of > > life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This > is > > mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article > > (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets > of the > > ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass > > scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor > > " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. > > > > To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at > best and > > head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, > a > > very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that > > acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot > down > > in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for > ourselves. > > Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical > > profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my > care > > for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will > truly be > > devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > ray > > ford > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been > working my > > arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. > > If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go > right > > ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for > them > > not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer > to see > > what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of > positive > > thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. > > Ray Ford > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > Sharon > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > > > Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. > > > > I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the > regional > > rural > > area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had > one of > > the > > larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first > course > > as a > > test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger > schemes > > of > > things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture > on a > > large > > scale health issue. > > > > It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the > ripples > > can > > radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of > ray > > ford > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > > > This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who > claimed > > that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " > he was > > completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he > is the > > area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my > breath for > > the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He > favours > > methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there > is in > > terms of dollar value! > > So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in > reality the > > funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long > long > > way > > off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an > > acupuncturist > > and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the > radio > > at > > the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. > If you > > do > > not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality > check. > > RayFord > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf > Of > > Sharon > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > Hi David, > > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting > > being > > based in Sydney. > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Print Email > > > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug > addicts > > with > > acupuncture. > > > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Chinese > Medicine > > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating > users > > who > > are > > in the process of detoxing. > > > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in > Fairfield, > > but > > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of > > treatment. > > > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it > could > > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using > > pharmacotherapy > > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional > approach, " > > Mr > > Long > > said. > > > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to > encourage > > people to > > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make > sure > > that > > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Chinese > Medicine > > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the > detox > > phase > > and > > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > > > Print Email > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf > Of Phil > > > > -- > > > > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release Date: > 1/06/2005 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 OK David, we should do that. Ray Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sydneytcm Friday, 3 June 2005 10:35 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Auriculotherapy and addiction Hi Ray, I'm not that experienced yet, not to be called a " specialist " any, but thankyou anyway. I would, of course, very much appreciate any referals in this field as this would build my experience. I agree these patients are very uncoperative, especially if its not at a specific " detox " centre. I would also kindly accept any help that you may be able to give, we should organise a " swap " of ideas one day. Warm regards, David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " <rford@p...> wrote: > Hi David, > The interview was so one sided it was ridiculous, perhaps someone with > your experience should be asked to comment on air. I have always failed > miserably with drug addicts over the years and ALWAYS refer them on now. > I am interested in this area but admit I am hopeless with these patients > as they are so recalcitrant. Someone specialising as you do is a great > idea and I offer to help you in any way I can including referring these > patients who still turn up from time to time. > When I was in New York Mark Seem told me that a drug rehab centre using > acupuncture in the Bronx was showing VERY promising results and > receiving money and a great deal of interest from the local health > authorities. I don't have the details but I am sure you have the > details. Dr Terry Olesen an expert in the field of auriculo-therapy has > also told me that he believes that this area has a lot of promise but > needs funds and quality studies. > Good luck with your quest. > Regards > Ray ford > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > sydneytcm > Thursday, 2 June 2005 9:39 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > Hi Ray, > > We have'nt met but i taught some of those very students who you > refer to at the Sydney Institute of Traditional , so > HI! > > Unfortunately Dr. Woback didn't know jack$! & % about the subject he > was asked to discuss. And i agree with your previous posts, that > this negative bombardment that TCM recieves every time we " threaten " > the medical " professionals " is ridiculous. That is why i plan on > taking something positive to the right people, like Attilio > said " fight back " . > > Acupuncture is a medical system to be reckond with! > > But i'll do it in a nice way. I believe that through the efficacy of > Auriculotherapies treatment of addiction we can open up another > avenue to gain the respect that Acupuncture deserves. Then from > this, and other methods, teach and educate people about the TCM > approach to healthcare. > > Kind Regards, > > David White > Clinical Director / Practitioner > Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & > Founder SydneyTCM > > Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " > <rford@p...> wrote: > > My original point was missed, as I did not spell it out. My point > in a > > nutshell is this: When offering information to each other I > believe full > > context should be applied. Just because a study has the " word " > > acupuncture does not mean that it is a little " pebble " in the pond > of > > life spreading throughout the world creating love and peace. This > is > > mystical thinking at its worst IMO. The fact is that this article > > (study) was slammed by the medical profession before it even gets > of the > > ground. The size of the study will ensure that it will never pass > > scientific scrutiny. These are facts they are not " negative " nor > > " positive " just facts containing NO emotion. > > > > To pass this article up as a positive message is misleading at > best and > > head in the sand lie at worst as it is without doubt the opposite, > a > > very poor public announcement by a " leading medical doctor " that > > acupuncture cannot help drug addiction. This was a good idea shot > down > > in flames. We are adults we can face facts and can decide for > ourselves. > > Personally I have no problem as I am used to this from the medical > > profession so do not get surprised. I want to prepare those in my > care > > for the reality they will face not some fantasy where they will > truly be > > devoured without knowledge of the full picture. Ray Ford > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > ray > > ford > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 2:29 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > Sharon, your post was just a tad condescending. I have been > working my > > arse off for 20 years so I know solutions are required. > > If you think one person in a smoking group makes you feel good go > right > > ahead. I have seven students in my clinic and my concerns are for > them > > not you or myself. Positive spinning everything is fine I prefer > to see > > what is actually happening " beneath " the very thin veneer of > positive > > thinking, this helps to know what we are actually required to do. > > Ray Ford > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > Sharon > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:58 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > > > Every day is a day closer Ray, any little steps are useful. > > > > I have just launched this week a stop smoking program in the > regional > > rural > > area where I live in South East Queensland, and I have just had > one of > > the > > larger employers indicate they will send one person on the first > course > > as a > > test case for further support. It may not be much in the bigger > schemes > > of > > things however, it is another step towards utilising acupuncture > on a > > large > > scale health issue. > > > > It is one of my little pebbles, I am casting on the water so the > ripples > > can > > radiate outwards. Solutions Ray is what we need! > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of > ray > > ford > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 1:13 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > > > This was also on the radio an interview with DR Alex Wodak who > claimed > > that this acupuncture treatment was just " flavour of the month " > he was > > completely dismissive of acupuncture for drug addiction. As he > is the > > area medical officer with a lot of clout I wouldn't hold my > breath for > > the government to hand over any research money " just yet " He > favours > > methadone and thinks it is far and away the best resource there > is in > > terms of dollar value! > > So the news looks promising(the one Sharon posted) but in > reality the > > funds needed to really show how acupuncture can help are a long > long > > way > > off. In the interview NO counter argument was given by an > > acupuncturist > > and the announcer kept calling it " akapuncha " I turned off the > radio > > at > > the end of the interview and went back to my Zoloft milkshake. > If you > > do > > not like hearing about this I am sorry but this IS a reality > check. > > RayFord > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf > Of > > Sharon > > Thursday, 2 June 2005 11:00 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > RE: Auriculotherapy and addiction > > > > Hi David, > > I just had this come in and thought it might be up of interesting > > being > > based in Sydney. > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Print Email > > > > Last Update: Wednesday, June 1, 2005. 10:43am (AEST) > > Acupuncture to offer alternative drug addiction treatment > > A trial is being planned in Sydney's south-west to treat drug > addicts > > with > > acupuncture. > > > > Fairfield Council is working with the Acupuncture and Chinese > Medicine > > Association to investigate a trial that would involve treating > users > > who > > are > > in the process of detoxing. > > > > The new drugs policy reaffirms the council's stance against the > > establishment of a medically supervised injecting room in > Fairfield, > > but > > says it is committed to offering drug users the latest methods of > > treatment. > > > > New South Wales Health will be asked to get involved. > > > > The method is used overseas and the council's Brian Long says it > could > > become an alternative treatment in the Fairfield area. > > > > " Allow people opportunities to get off drugs without using > > pharmacotherapy > > treatments which as you know have been a very traditional > approach, " > > Mr > > Long > > said. > > > > " So we're certainly interested in looking at new ways to > encourage > > people to > > get off illicit drugs, but it will be important to us to make > sure > > that > > we've got the support and involvement of New South Wales Health. " > > > > Christine Berle from the Australian Acupuncture and Chinese > Medicine > > Association says a hour long session a day can help. > > > > " Normalising the organs that are being overworked during the > detox > > phase > > and > > then also reducing the stress levels, " Ms Berle said. > > > > Print Email > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf > Of Phil > > > > -- > > > > > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release Date: > 1/06/2005 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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