Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Bob Xu wrote: > Hi all, > > As a preparation for the ACMA Unified Medicine Project, the > article " Mathematical Herbal Medicine " has been published. It is now > available at: > http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2005/jun/06xu.html > > Please direct your comments and feedbacks to: > bxu > Hi Bob! Are there any other published authors who hold the point of view you present here? Does the new mathematics needed to evaluate Chinese Herbal Medicine exist or is this yet to be developed? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Bob, Enjoyed your article very much. Simple and well-stated. I for one share your point of view. I lecture to my students on " herbal algorithms " all the time. On May 5, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Bob Xu wrote: > As a preparation for the ACMA Unified Medicine Project, the > article " Mathematical Herbal Medicine " has been published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Interesting article Bob. I agree that there is no fundamental mathematical model for TCM. Having said that, last year the head of Glaxo-Wellcome stated that half his medicines don't work on half the people. Therefore, the current RCT significantly statistical model doesn't work for allopathic medicine either. You state that the foundational differences between WM and TCM in that they are very different. This is not quite true. WM is based upon Greek and Roman medicine. The influential Roman physician Claudius Galen devised a theory on breathing based on earlier Greek writers. He thought that a natural 'world spirit', seeped from the air down the windpipe into the lungs, along hollow pulmonary veins and into the heart, where it added special life to the vital flame. This vital spirit was then distributed throughout the arterial system (Parker 1993, p24). In TCM, air (Qing Qi) is mixed in the chest with the essence from food and fluids (Gu Qi) and then given the spark of life by the primary Qi (Yuan Qi) stored in the Kidneys to produce Zong Qi. This Zong Qi is dispersed around the body and to the Heart where it is transformed to produce the vital substance of all mammals, blood. It was Rene Descartes, the philosopher and physician who made a major contribution to Western medicine. He needed bodies to dissect, however these bodies were literally the 'property' of the Christian Church. He deal was struck between Descartes and the Pope of Rome. The Pope agreed that Descartes could have bodies to dissect if his medicine wouldn't have anything to do with the soul, mind or emotions. These were left to the Church for exclusive control. This caused a major split between the body, emotions and the soul. WM then became more physical and lost its holistic role. For more info on this see, http://users.med.auth.gr/%7Ekaranik/english/articles/attilio/eastwest.html So, what mathematical model do you suggest? The E=MC2 or modern string theory? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Bob Xu 06 May 2005 03:10 Chinese Medicine Mathematical Herbal Medicine Hi all, As a preparation for the ACMA Unified Medicine Project, the article " Mathematical Herbal Medicine " has been published. It is now available at: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2005/jun/06xu.html Please direct your comments and feedbacks to: bxu Thanks, Bob Xu http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Hi Bob! > > Are there any other published authors who hold the point of view you > present here? Does the new mathematics needed to evaluate Chinese Herbal > Medicine exist or is this yet to be developed? > > Regards, > > Pete Hi Pete, The viewpoints in the " Mathematical Herbal Medicine " article are just published. There is no other publication on this topic yet. Mathematical Herbal Medicine is a new field. Its goals are to provide Chinese Herbal Medicine with scientific validity, and to improve the accuracy, consistency, and reproducibility for the practice of Chinese Herbal Medicine. This is just a beginning. Most of its contents need to be developed by everyone here, other practitioners, mathematicians, and experts in other fields. Bob Xu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Bob, > Enjoyed your article very much. Simple and well-stated. I for > one share your point of view. I lecture to my students on " herbal > algorithms " all the time. > > Z¡¯ev, I am very interested in your ¡°herbal algorithms¡±. Later on, I will probably step deeper with you in this direction. Bob Xu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Interesting article Bob. I agree that there is no fundamental mathematical > model for TCM. Having said that, last year the head of Glaxo- Wellcome stated > that half his medicines don't work on half the people. Therefore, the > current RCT significantly statistical model doesn't work for allopathic > medicine either. > > You state that the foundational differences between WM and TCM in that they > are very different. This is not quite true. WM is based upon Greek and Roman > medicine. The influential Roman physician Claudius Galen devised a theory on > breathing based on earlier Greek writers. He thought that a natural 'world > spirit', seeped from the air down the windpipe into the lungs, along hollow > pulmonary veins and into the heart, where it added special life to the vital > flame. This vital spirit was then distributed throughout the arterial system > (Parker 1993, p24). In TCM, air (Qing Qi) is mixed in the chest with the > essence from food and fluids (Gu Qi) and then given the spark of life by the > primary Qi (Yuan Qi) stored in the Kidneys to produce Zong Qi. This Zong Qi > is dispersed around the body and to the Heart where it is transformed to > produce the vital substance of all mammals, blood. > > It was Rene Descartes, the philosopher and physician who made a major > contribution to Western medicine. He needed bodies to dissect, however these > bodies were literally the 'property' of the Christian Church. He deal was > struck between Descartes and the Pope of Rome. The Pope agreed that > Descartes could have bodies to dissect if his medicine wouldn't have > anything to do with the soul, mind or emotions. These were left to the > Church for exclusive control. This caused a major split between the body, > emotions and the soul. WM then became more physical and lost its holistic > role. > > For more info on this see, > http://users.med.auth.gr/% 7Ekaranik/english/articles/attilio/eastwest.html > > So, what mathematical model do you suggest? The E=MC2 or modern string > theory? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Attilio, I agree with you that RCT does not work well for Western medicine either. In certain sense, RCT has messed up and destroyed the medicine. A part of the Unified Medicine Project will address this issue. It's interesting to see that Western medicine has changed (shifted and split) its foundation. Because the Mathematical Herbal Medicine's comparison is with current (post shift or split) Western medicine, it takes Western medicine's current foundation (anatomical and physical) in comparison, which is different from that of Chinese medicine. I don't have a matured mathematical model yet. Mathematical Herbal Medicine model will be more complicated than those in physics. Maybe we cannot see the model in our generation. However, it is imperative to start working on it now. A field without mathematical model can hardly be called a scientific field. Hoping more people (including everyone here, other practitioners, mathematicians, and experts in other fields, etc.) can join in this endeavor. Bob Xu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Bob Xu wrote: <snip> > > Hi Pete, > > The viewpoints in the " Mathematical Herbal Medicine " article are just > published. There is no other publication on this topic yet. > > Mathematical Herbal Medicine is a new field. Its goals are to > provide Chinese Herbal Medicine with scientific validity, and to > improve the accuracy, consistency, and reproducibility for the > practice of Chinese Herbal Medicine. This is just a beginning. Most > of its contents need to be developed by everyone here, other Chinese > Medicine practitioners, mathematicians, and experts in other fields. > > > Bob Xu Hi Bob! Any idea what form of mathematics this might take? Statistics is something I was thinking of. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hi Bob, Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there is a 5 element mathematical model based on vector analysis. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu Saturday, 7 May 2005 12:53 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Interesting article Bob. I agree that there is no fundamental mathematical > model for TCM. Having said that, last year the head of Glaxo- Wellcome stated > that half his medicines don't work on half the people. Therefore, the > current RCT significantly statistical model doesn't work for allopathic > medicine either. > > You state that the foundational differences between WM and TCM in that they > are very different. This is not quite true. WM is based upon Greek and Roman > medicine. The influential Roman physician Claudius Galen devised a theory on > breathing based on earlier Greek writers. He thought that a natural 'world > spirit', seeped from the air down the windpipe into the lungs, along hollow > pulmonary veins and into the heart, where it added special life to the vital > flame. This vital spirit was then distributed throughout the arterial system > (Parker 1993, p24). In TCM, air (Qing Qi) is mixed in the chest with the > essence from food and fluids (Gu Qi) and then given the spark of life by the > primary Qi (Yuan Qi) stored in the Kidneys to produce Zong Qi. This Zong Qi > is dispersed around the body and to the Heart where it is transformed to > produce the vital substance of all mammals, blood. > > It was Rene Descartes, the philosopher and physician who made a major > contribution to Western medicine. He needed bodies to dissect, however these > bodies were literally the 'property' of the Christian Church. He deal was > struck between Descartes and the Pope of Rome. The Pope agreed that > Descartes could have bodies to dissect if his medicine wouldn't have > anything to do with the soul, mind or emotions. These were left to the > Church for exclusive control. This caused a major split between the body, > emotions and the soul. WM then became more physical and lost its holistic > role. > > For more info on this see, > http://users.med.auth.gr/% 7Ekaranik/english/articles/attilio/eastwest.html > > So, what mathematical model do you suggest? The E=MC2 or modern string > theory? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Attilio, I agree with you that RCT does not work well for Western medicine either. In certain sense, RCT has messed up and destroyed the medicine. A part of the Unified Medicine Project will address this issue. It's interesting to see that Western medicine has changed (shifted and split) its foundation. Because the Mathematical Herbal Medicine's comparison is with current (post shift or split) Western medicine, it takes Western medicine's current foundation (anatomical and physical) in comparison, which is different from that of Chinese medicine. I don't have a matured mathematical model yet. Mathematical Herbal Medicine model will be more complicated than those in physics. Maybe we cannot see the model in our generation. However, it is imperative to start working on it now. A field without mathematical model can hardly be called a scientific field. Hoping more people (including everyone here, other practitioners, mathematicians, and experts in other fields, etc.) can join in this endeavor. Bob Xu http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Sharon wrote: > Hi Bob, Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention > that there is a 5 element mathematical model based on vector > analysis. Best wishes, Hi Sharon! The list is a " group discussion " no need to feel timid in joining the conversation. For those of us who are unfamiliar with " vector analysis " , perhaps you could provide a simple explanation, as well as a little more about the " 5 element mathematical model " . 5 element is problematical in that so seldom is any patient found who displays a true 5 element picture. One of our textbooks referred to " fudging " with 5 element, but heck, aunt Emma with no medical training at all can do fudging. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Pete, The paper is an appendix in Chasing the Dragon's Tail, and since I don't have the gift of the gab to explain maths, it past me, just thought it might interest some. Secondly, please explain what you mean by a a true 5 element pattern. I see 5 element patterns regularly, perhaps I missing something. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Pete Theisen Sunday, 8 May 2005 1:59 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Sharon wrote: > Hi Bob, Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention > that there is a 5 element mathematical model based on vector > analysis. Best wishes, Hi Sharon! The list is a " group discussion " no need to feel timid in joining the conversation. For those of us who are unfamiliar with " vector analysis " , perhaps you could provide a simple explanation, as well as a little more about the " 5 element mathematical model " . 5 element is problematical in that so seldom is any patient found who displays a true 5 element picture. One of our textbooks referred to " fudging " with 5 element, but heck, aunt Emma with no medical training at all can do fudging. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Hi Bob! > > Any idea what form of mathematics this might take? Statistics is > something I was thinking of. > > Regards, > > Pete Pete, Based on the complexity, diversity, and adaptability of Chinese Herbal Medicine system, I think the Mathematical Herbal Medicine will have multiple levels, multiple facets, multiple sets, and multiple categories of mathematical models for the herbal medicine system. Statistical model is one. There are others. In short, Mathematical Herbal Medicine is a field rather than one or two models. The mathematical modeling control should and will exist at all aspects of diagnostic and treatment processes due to the characteristics of herbal medicine system. Bob Xu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Bob, > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there is a 5 > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > Best wishes, > Hi Sharon, Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. Bob Xu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Bob, I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 Do you have access to this publication? Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Bob, > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there is a 5 > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > Best wishes, > Hi Sharon, Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. Bob Xu http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Oh Bob, I see that the book appendix includes several papers along this line. The second is Towards the Development of a Mathematical Model for Acupuncture Channels - first published in Acup. & Elec. Ther. Res. Int. Jour. 14, pp 217-226, 1989 There is also the final paper - A Mathematical Model for the Five Phase Laws in the Case of a Single Channel. - no previous publication reference is given. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Bob, > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there is a 5 > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > Best wishes, > Hi Sharon, Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. Bob Xu http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Dr. Yoshio Manaka's book, " Chasing the Dragon's Tail " has a section on the five phase mathematical model. On May 7, 2005, at 1:55 AM, Sharon wrote: > Hi Bob, > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that > there is a 5 > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > Best wishes, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Can anyone get hold of this paper? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sharon 08 May 2005 03:41 Chinese Medicine RE: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Bob, I have the paper in my copy of the Chasing the Dragon's tail. The paper is Appendix Five: On the Development of a Mathematical Model for the " Laws' of the Five Phases, page 392-411 If you wanted to purchase the book the ISBN is 0-912111-32-1 Apparently it was first published in The American Journal of Acupuncture 17:4. pp261-6, 1989 Do you have access to this publication? Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Bob Xu Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:40 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Mathematical Herbal Medicine Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Bob, > Please excuse me cutting in, however, I thought to mention that there is a 5 > element mathematical model based on vector analysis. > Best wishes, > Hi Sharon, Welcome to join in. Everyone's constructive inputs are welcome. Could you please recommend a link where the 5 element mathematical model based on vector analysis is available? Thanks. Bob Xu http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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