Classical perspectives on end-of-life care

[Guest guest]

Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

classical Chinese medical literature?

 

Adam

[Guest guest]

Ooo, good question Adam.

 

Modern ethics in China are different from those of the past. Chinese medical

ethics as laid down by Sun Simiao during the Tang dynasty focuses its moral

doctrines of beneficence on humaneness and compassion to saving every living

creature. In ancient China, Sun Si Miao formulised the first set of medical

ethics. Both medical scholars, Hippocrates and Sun Si Miao established

certain protocols in which the needs of the patient, the medical

establishment and society were given precedence. Considerations of religion,

nationality, race, party politics, social standing and lifestyle should not

interfere with the basic obligation to treat.

 

That's about all I have for ancient Chinese medical palliative care. In

modern China, whilst I was in Beijing, I observed that patients with

terminal illness are not made aware of their situation. The family and

doctors keep the information from them in the hope that they will be in high

spirits in the last weeks, days or their lives.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

adamhenrymargolis

29 April 2005 20:00

Chinese Medicine

Classical perspectives on end-of-life care

 

 

Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

classical Chinese medical literature?

 

Adam

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Adam - why are you asking? just curious...

 

Karen

 

Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

>Ooo, good question Adam.

>

>Modern ethics in China are different from those of the past. Chinese medical

>ethics as laid down by Sun Simiao during the Tang dynasty focuses its moral

>doctrines of beneficence on humaneness and compassion to saving every living

>creature. In ancient China, Sun Si Miao formulised the first set of medical

>ethics. Both medical scholars, Hippocrates and Sun Si Miao established

>certain protocols in which the needs of the patient, the medical

>establishment and society were given precedence. Considerations of religion,

>nationality, race, party politics, social standing and lifestyle should not

>interfere with the basic obligation to treat.

>

>That's about all I have for ancient Chinese medical palliative care. In

>modern China, whilst I was in Beijing, I observed that patients with

>terminal illness are not made aware of their situation. The family and

>doctors keep the information from them in the hope that they will be in high

>spirits in the last weeks, days or their lives.

>

>Hope that helps.

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

>adamhenrymargolis

>29 April 2005 20:00

>Chinese Medicine

>Classical perspectives on end-of-life care

>

>

>Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

>classical Chinese medical literature?

>

>Adam

>

>

>

>

>

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics,

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hola Adam,

In one ethical code from Soong times (about 1200 CE)

that Dr Lo (GuangZhuo) had framed above his desk the

author said simply that a Dr should never tell a

patient they are going to die since the Dr has no

control over the course of life and death.

 

I remember this phrase these 25 or so years later

because Talmud says almost the identical thing and

this caught my attention.

 

I do not know any other direct commentary though.

Perhaps after Shabos Z'ev might respond since he has a

fairly wide range of readings in the classics.

 

 

--- adamhenrymargolis <adamhenrymargolis

wrote:

 

Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life /

palliative care in

classical Chinese medical literature?

 

Adam

 

---

 

" Euro-centric " Science " proves itself based on it's

own methods and paradigm and then criticizes other non

European (read non white!) systems for not being able

to prove themselves by the methods and criteria it has

created. TCM is often ridiculed for not being able to

pass through the testing that White Euro-centric

Science has set as the only “valid” standard.

Hundreds of millions of cases of successful treatment

with TCM are dismissed as anecdotal. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Somewhat off the point, in some very respected literature, there is

almost a morbid, almost grotesque

preoccupation with signs which signal an end to life.

 

In Chapter Five of the Pulse Classic, Bian Que explains the Death

Pulses, and sort of warms up

on p 141, and takes off full kilter on p 143, with some 18 ingenious

enunciations of impending

death, with explicit little morsels like, " ten out of ten cases will

die " , or, " this portends death " , such

and such " portends death " , or " death is imminent " , or " death will come

instantly " , or " such and such

Watch will bring in death " .

 

I deal in words, have done so in several languages over decades, and

have learned to pick up art

in an inflection, and rare creativity in a verbal nuance.

 

To my mind, a fine author and clinician, almost seems to harbor rancor

to an extent, that it, well

out of sight in social discourse, spills out unmitigated, in what could

be clinical literature.

 

He must hate something about life to distraction, to be so vehement on

stating something about

death, in such an almost vicious, unrelenting way.

 

Before you are done with page the chapter you have all the ways you can

tell the dear ones of a

man or woman that the Kicking of the Bucket will come about at whatever

time.

 

In which case you will be unwelcome forever more in that family, or very

welcome, depending on

who gets the spoils.

 

Holmes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

adamhenrymargolis wrote:

 

> Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

> classical Chinese medical literature?

>

> Adam

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wassup ho(l)mes?

(that's El Norte (Los Angeles speak) for good evening Dr)

 

I don't often grasp your Confucian dialect, but for cases of the nearly departed

I recommend the following eulogy in the most reverent cartoon tradition :

 

'I weep for you, I really do, I dearly sympathize,'

'For I've enjoyed your company much more then you realize!'

(to be followed by a nice long slurrp and precison pat of the napkin)

 

Sometimes I wonder who's going to like it more when I'm ded; me or

everybody else. If it's anything like sleep, bring it on !

 

Dr Joe

 

 

Chinese Medicine , dkakobad <

dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> Somewhat off the point, in some very respected literature, there is

> almost a morbid, almost grotesque

> preoccupation with signs which signal an end to life.

>

> In Chapter Five of the Pulse Classic, Bian Que explains the Death

> Pulses, and sort of warms up

> on p 141, and takes off full kilter on p 143, with some 18 ingenious

> enunciations of impending

> death, with explicit little morsels like, " ten out of ten cases will

> die " , or, " this portends death " , such

> and such " portends death " , or " death is imminent " , or " death will come

> instantly " , or " such and such

> Watch will bring in death " .

>

> I deal in words, have done so in several languages over decades, and

> have learned to pick up art

> in an inflection, and rare creativity in a verbal nuance.

>

> To my mind, a fine author and clinician, almost seems to harbor rancor

> to an extent, that it, well

> out of sight in social discourse, spills out unmitigated, in what could

> be clinical literature.

>

> He must hate something about life to distraction, to be so vehement on

> stating something about

> death, in such an almost vicious, unrelenting way.

>

> Before you are done with page the chapter you have all the ways you can

> tell the dear ones of a

> man or woman that the Kicking of the Bucket will come about at whatever

> time.

>

> In which case you will be unwelcome forever more in that family, or very

> welcome, depending on

> who gets the spoils.

>

> Holmes.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

adamhenrymargolis wrote:

>

> > Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

> > classical Chinese medical literature?

> >

> > Adam

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

that's enjoyable thanks

 

i am a writer and for that i apologize

it's just that in Bian Que's morbidly surmize

 

of various kinds of pulses which said

this one will shortly be dead

 

a tendency to life otherwsie

would have stood in better stead

 

holmes

 

jreidomd wrote:

 

> Wassup ho(l)mes?

> (that's El Norte (Los Angeles speak) for good evening Dr)

>

> I don't often grasp your Confucian dialect, but for cases of the

> nearly departed

> I recommend the following eulogy in the most reverent cartoon tradition :

>

> 'I weep for you, I really do, I dearly sympathize,'

> 'For I've enjoyed your company much more then you realize!'

> (to be followed by a nice long slurrp and precison pat of the napkin)

>

> Sometimes I wonder who's going to like it more when I'm ded; me or

> everybody else. If it's anything like sleep, bring it on !

>

> Dr Joe

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , dkakobad <

> dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> > Somewhat off the point, in some very respected literature, there is

> > almost a morbid, almost grotesque

> > preoccupation with signs which signal an end to life.

> >

> > In Chapter Five of the Pulse Classic, Bian Que explains the Death

> > Pulses, and sort of warms up

> > on p 141, and takes off full kilter on p 143, with some 18 ingenious

> > enunciations of impending

> > death, with explicit little morsels like, " ten out of ten cases will

> > die " , or, " this portends death " , such

> > and such " portends death " , or " death is imminent " , or " death will come

> > instantly " , or " such and such

> > Watch will bring in death " .

> >

> > I deal in words, have done so in several languages over decades, and

> > have learned to pick up art

> > in an inflection, and rare creativity in a verbal nuance.

> >

> > To my mind, a fine author and clinician, almost seems to harbor rancor

> > to an extent, that it, well

> > out of sight in social discourse, spills out unmitigated, in what could

> > be clinical literature.

> >

> > He must hate something about life to distraction, to be so vehement on

> > stating something about

> > death, in such an almost vicious, unrelenting way.

> >

> > Before you are done with page the chapter you have all the ways you can

> > tell the dear ones of a

> > man or woman that the Kicking of the Bucket will come about at whatever

> > time.

> >

> > In which case you will be unwelcome forever more in that family, or

> very

> > welcome, depending on

> > who gets the spoils.

> >

> > Holmes.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > adamhenrymargolis wrote:

> >

> > > Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

> > > classical Chinese medical literature?

> > >

> > > Adam

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , karen

<tryfan@o...> wrote:

> Hi Adam - why are you asking? just curious...

>

> Karen

 

Karen,

 

My interest in hospice care actually helped inspire me to go into

Chinese medicine in the first place. I currently work in the oncology

department of a community hospital system in Wisconsin. Recently, I

have been directing my efforts toward the integration of acupuncture

into our inpatient hospice unit. I have personally found acupuncture

to be a valuable tool in the treatment of terminally ill patients,

and was wondering if there was any record of traditional usage of

acupuncture in this context. When presenting inservices to the

hospice staff, I would like to share with them whether this is a

brand new application of acupuncture, or if there is some history

behind it.

 

Adam

 

 

> Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

>

> >Ooo, good question Adam.

> >

> >Modern ethics in China are different from those of the past.

Chinese medical

> >ethics as laid down by Sun Simiao during the Tang dynasty focuses

its moral

> >doctrines of beneficence on humaneness and compassion to saving

every living

> >creature. In ancient China, Sun Si Miao formulised the first set

of medical

> >ethics. Both medical scholars, Hippocrates and Sun Si Miao

established

> >certain protocols in which the needs of the patient, the medical

> >establishment and society were given precedence. Considerations of

religion,

> >nationality, race, party politics, social standing and lifestyle

should not

> >interfere with the basic obligation to treat.

> >

> >That's about all I have for ancient Chinese medical palliative

care. In

> >modern China, whilst I was in Beijing, I observed that patients

with

> >terminal illness are not made aware of their situation. The family

and

> >doctors keep the information from them in the hope that they will

be in high

> >spirits in the last weeks, days or their lives.

> >

> >Hope that helps.

> >

> >Kind regards

> >

> >Attilio D'Alberto

> >Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> >07786198900

> >attiliodalberto

> > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

> >

> >

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> >adamhenrymargolis

> >29 April 2005 20:00

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Classical perspectives on end-of-life care

> >

> >

> >Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

> >classical Chinese medical literature?

> >

> >Adam

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

page,

> >http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

> >

> >

and adjust

> >accordingly.

> >

> >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group

> >requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> >If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

academics,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

have created a protocol for post chemo & radiation Heat management

 

holmes

 

adamhenrymargolis wrote:

 

> Chinese Medicine , karen

> <tryfan@o...> wrote:

> > Hi Adam - why are you asking? just curious...

> >

> > Karen

>

> Karen,

>

> My interest in hospice care actually helped inspire me to go into

> Chinese medicine in the first place. I currently work in the oncology

> department of a community hospital system in Wisconsin. Recently, I

> have been directing my efforts toward the integration of acupuncture

> into our inpatient hospice unit. I have personally found acupuncture

> to be a valuable tool in the treatment of terminally ill patients,

> and was wondering if there was any record of traditional usage of

> acupuncture in this context. When presenting inservices to the

> hospice staff, I would like to share with them whether this is a

> brand new application of acupuncture, or if there is some history

> behind it.

>

> Adam

>

>

> > Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> >

> > >Ooo, good question Adam.

> > >

> > >Modern ethics in China are different from those of the past.

> Chinese medical

> > >ethics as laid down by Sun Simiao during the Tang dynasty focuses

> its moral

> > >doctrines of beneficence on humaneness and compassion to saving

> every living

> > >creature. In ancient China, Sun Si Miao formulised the first set

> of medical

> > >ethics. Both medical scholars, Hippocrates and Sun Si Miao

> established

> > >certain protocols in which the needs of the patient, the medical

> > >establishment and society were given precedence. Considerations of

> religion,

> > >nationality, race, party politics, social standing and lifestyle

> should not

> > >interfere with the basic obligation to treat.

> > >

> > >That's about all I have for ancient Chinese medical palliative

> care. In

> > >modern China, whilst I was in Beijing, I observed that patients

> with

> > >terminal illness are not made aware of their situation. The family

> and

> > >doctors keep the information from them in the hope that they will

> be in high

> > >spirits in the last weeks, days or their lives.

> > >

> > >Hope that helps.

> > >

> > >Kind regards

> > >

> > >Attilio D'Alberto

> > >Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> > >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> > >07786198900

> > >attiliodalberto

> > > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

> > >

> > >

> > >Chinese Medicine

> > >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> > >adamhenrymargolis

> > >29 April 2005 20:00

> > >Chinese Medicine

> > >Classical perspectives on end-of-life care

> > >

> > >

> > >Is anyone aware of references to end-of-life / palliative care in

> > >classical Chinese medical literature?

> > >

> > >Adam

> > >

> >

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , dkakobad

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> have created a protocol for post chemo & radiation Heat management

>

> holmes

>

 

I'm listening...

[Guest guest]

Dr. Kakobad,

Your comments raise a few points:

 

1) this is an english translation of a Chinese medical text. So

language nuances are most certainly lost.

 

2) from my own teacher, I learned that 'death' in Chinese medicine can

mean death of channels and/or viscera bowel functions or organs, not

necessary the total cessation of life. And, more importantly, the dead

can be brought back to life.

 

3) this chapter is on prognosis. It can be very useful to the

physician to know if his efforts are going to be worthwhile or not.

This doesn't mean necessarily that he or she gives the patient a death

sentence.

 

 

On Apr 29, 2005, at 6:11 PM, dkakobad wrote:

 

> He must hate something about life to distraction, to be so vehement on

> stating something about

> death, in such an almost vicious, unrelenting way.

>

> Before you are done with page the chapter you have all the ways you can

> tell the dear ones of a

> man or woman that the Kicking of the Bucket will come about at whatever

> time.