Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. Thanks for your thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " <defrancoluis> wrote: > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > need to be repeatedly. > luigi > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > <peter911cm> wrote: > > Hi, Laura > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > Good luck > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > that together > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > that surprises me > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > clue to her > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > more phlegm than > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > the mass is very > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > interested in > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > diagnostically. > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > damp looking. > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > thirst, which > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > had trouble > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > days, heavy the > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > Headache before > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > (dampheat?). > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > her emotions). > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > and maybe some > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 She should investigate a myomectomy procedure, removing the fibroid but leaving the uterus intact. Most of the time it is not necessary to do a hysterectomy. Also, there are other new techniques out there -- cutting off the blood supply to the fibroid -- Condolezza Rice had this procedure done. For most (typically male) surgeons, the first option they offer is hysterectomy, because it is easiest for them, but no woman should accept this unless she is convinced it is the only option, based on careful evaluation of all the options. Especially since she has no pain or excess bleeding, I am suspicious of the " need " for a hysterectomy. Check out " The Hysterectomy Hoax " by Dr. Stanley West, available on Amazon, for more info, although there are new methods out there since this book was written. Also, sometimes herbs will stop the growth of fibroids but not shrink them. I have seen women who stopped taking herbs find their fibroids double in size in a matter of weeks. If someone really wants to avoid surgery, this may be worth taking into account. Pat I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. Thanks for your thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " <defrancoluis> wrote: > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > need to be repeatedly. > luigi > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > <peter911cm> wrote: > > Hi, Laura > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > Good luck > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > that together > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > that surprises me > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > clue to her > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > more phlegm than > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > the mass is very > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > interested in > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > diagnostically. > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > damp looking. > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > thirst, which > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > had trouble > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > days, heavy the > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > Headache before > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > (dampheat?). > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > her emotions). > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > and maybe some > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 heylaurag wrote: >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > >Thanks for your thoughts. > >Laura > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > >>nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it >>is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' >>(i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, >>that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, >>as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has >>shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to >>Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it >>would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, >>zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa >>points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this >>need to be repeatedly. >>luigi >>Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky >><peter911cm> wrote: >> >> >>>Hi, Laura >>> >>>I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I >>>remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger >>>than 1 cm should be operated on. >>>Good luck >>> >>>Peter Pavolotsky >>> >>> >>> >>>--- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: >>> >>> >>>Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids >>>that together >>>are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing >>>that surprises me >>>is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a >>>clue to her >>>primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have >>>more phlegm than >>>qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but >>>the mass is very >>>hard with distinct borders. Any >>>diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas >>>would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially >>>interested in >>>knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates >>>diagnostically. >>> >>>Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all >>>damp looking. >>>Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of >>>thirst, which >>>could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always >>>had trouble >>>falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 >>>days, heavy the >>>first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, >>>Headache before >>>period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots >>>(dampheat?). >>>Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses >>>her emotions). >>>Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency >>>and maybe some >>>dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. >>> >>>Thanks for any thoughts, >>> >>>Laura >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this >>>web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>>and adjust accordingly. >>> >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any >>>duplication outside the group requires prior >>>permission from the author. >>> >>>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with >>>other academics, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Thanks for the replies--I take it from these responses that I should tell her that herbs will not reduce the size, but may stop them from growing? Are most fibroids that are this advanced many smaller ones that create one large mass, or are they usually just one? I had thought maybe I could treat her based on the fact that she has many smaller ones, but also wondered if that is commonly the case in advanced stages like this. I will give her the information and ideas shared here (eg: the research studies etc.). Laura Chinese Medicine , Steve Edwards <sedwards16@a...> wrote: > heylaurag wrote: > > >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > > >Thanks for your thoughts. > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > > >>nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > >>is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > >>(i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > >>that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > >>as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > >>shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > >>Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > >>would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > >>zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > >>points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > >>need to be repeatedly. > >>luigi > >>Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > >><peter911cm> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hi, Laura > >>> > >>>I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > >>>remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > >>>than 1 cm should be operated on. > >>>Good luck > >>> > >>>Peter Pavolotsky > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > >>>that together > >>>are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > >>>that surprises me > >>>is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > >>>clue to her > >>>primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > >>>more phlegm than > >>>qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > >>>the mass is very > >>>hard with distinct borders. Any > >>>diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > >>>would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > >>>interested in > >>>knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > >>>diagnostically. > >>> > >>>Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > >>>damp looking. > >>>Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > >>>thirst, which > >>>could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > >>>had trouble > >>>falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > >>>days, heavy the > >>>first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > >>>Headache before > >>>period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > >>>(dampheat?). > >>>Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > >>>her emotions). > >>>Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > >>>and maybe some > >>>dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > >>> > >>>Thanks for any thoughts, > >>> > >>>Laura > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > >>>web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any > >>>duplication outside the group requires prior > >>>permission from the author. > >>> > >>>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > >>>other academics, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 No guarantee. However, try to explore why the surgery is suggested. In some cases, fibroids can press on ureters, for example, which can endanger a kidney, or on the bladder, causing urination problems. There may be a medically necessary reason why the surgeon is suggesting the procedure, in which case she may need to do it. Doesn't sound like her symptoms are consistent with this, but worth asking. Fibroids don't necessarily combine to create one big one; there can be many little ones as well as a few big ones. Try to get a copy of the ultrasound image if that has been done, so you can get a clear visual image of what is there. Pat Thanks for the replies--I take it from these responses that I should tell her that herbs will not reduce the size, but may stop them from growing? Are most fibroids that are this advanced many smaller ones that create one large mass, or are they usually just one? I had thought maybe I could treat her based on the fact that she has many smaller ones, but also wondered if that is commonly the case in advanced stages like this. I will give her the information and ideas shared here (eg: the research studies etc.). Laura Chinese Medicine , Steve Edwards <sedwards16@a...> wrote: > heylaurag wrote: > > >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > > >Thanks for your thoughts. > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > > >>nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > >>is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > >>(i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > >>that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > >>as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > >>shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > >>Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > >>would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > >>zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > >>points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > >>need to be repeatedly. > >>luigi > >>Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > >><peter911cm> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hi, Laura > >>> > >>>I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > >>>remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > >>>than 1 cm should be operated on. > >>>Good luck > >>> > >>>Peter Pavolotsky > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > >>>that together > >>>are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > >>>that surprises me > >>>is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > >>>clue to her > >>>primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > >>>more phlegm than > >>>qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > >>>the mass is very > >>>hard with distinct borders. Any > >>>diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > >>>would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > >>>interested in > >>>knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > >>>diagnostically. > >>> > >>>Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > >>>damp looking. > >>>Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > >>>thirst, which > >>>could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > >>>had trouble > >>>falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > >>>days, heavy the > >>>first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > >>>Headache before > >>>period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > >>>(dampheat?). > >>>Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > >>>her emotions). > >>>Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > >>>and maybe some > >>>dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > >>> > >>>Thanks for any thoughts, > >>> > >>>Laura > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > >>>web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any > >>>duplication outside the group requires prior > >>>permission from the author. > >>> > >>>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > >>>other academics, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 I have to agree with Pat that a hysterectomy for fibroids is almost never really necessary. Even if there are multiple tumors a willing surgeon can remove as many as are there. Malignancy is really the only scenario when hysterectomy is the best choice. --roseanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Hi Laura, You have been given good advice already on your fibroid(s) patient, I just thought I would add a little to that. One of the most helpful bits of information to have is not always available, namely - how long has a patient had what level of fibroid(s)? If this patient has had these multiple fibroids for months or years, then successful treatment is very difficult but then again, there is less worry that the problem will advance quickly and you have the luxury of trying your treatment, hoping for the best while watching for any signs of more growth. If this came on suddenly in the recent past, there is more risk it could get worse quickly but also a chance it could improve quickly too. If this patient is taking any estrogen, she should get off of it. Estrogen is fertilizer for tumors. You should also council to avoid meat raised with hormones and unfermented soy products. In the end, as much as we dislike the idea, she may need a hysterectomy. Multiple fibroids do not lend themselves as well to the treatment that blocks blood flow or fibroidectomy. Let her know that if she undergoes surgery, there is a lot you can do to speed her recovery and support her blood (hormone) health afterward. Please let the group know what becomes of your patient. - Matthew Bauer - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Friday, April 22, 2005 12:08 PM Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Thanks for the replies--I take it from these responses that I should tell her that herbs will not reduce the size, but may stop them from growing? Are most fibroids that are this advanced many smaller ones that create one large mass, or are they usually just one? I had thought maybe I could treat her based on the fact that she has many smaller ones, but also wondered if that is commonly the case in advanced stages like this. I will give her the information and ideas shared here (eg: the research studies etc.). Laura Chinese Medicine , Steve Edwards <sedwards16@a...> wrote: > heylaurag wrote: > > >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > > >Thanks for your thoughts. > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > > >>nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > >>is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > >>(i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > >>that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > >>as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > >>shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > >>Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > >>would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > >>zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > >>points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > >>need to be repeatedly. > >>luigi > >>Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > >><peter911cm> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hi, Laura > >>> > >>>I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > >>>remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > >>>than 1 cm should be operated on. > >>>Good luck > >>> > >>>Peter Pavolotsky > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > >>>that together > >>>are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > >>>that surprises me > >>>is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > >>>clue to her > >>>primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > >>>more phlegm than > >>>qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > >>>the mass is very > >>>hard with distinct borders. Any > >>>diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > >>>would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > >>>interested in > >>>knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > >>>diagnostically. > >>> > >>>Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > >>>damp looking. > >>>Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > >>>thirst, which > >>>could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > >>>had trouble > >>>falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > >>>days, heavy the > >>>first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > >>>Headache before > >>>period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > >>>(dampheat?). > >>>Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > >>>her emotions). > >>>Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > >>>and maybe some > >>>dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > >>> > >>>Thanks for any thoughts, > >>> > >>>Laura > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > >>>web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any > >>>duplication outside the group requires prior > >>>permission from the author. > >>> > >>>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > >>>other academics, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Laura, First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the energetic conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be as after the operation as before. So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the fibroids. Just my biased view, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. Thanks for your thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " <defrancoluis> wrote: > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > need to be repeatedly. > luigi > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > <peter911cm> wrote: > > Hi, Laura > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > Good luck > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > that together > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > that surprises me > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > clue to her > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > more phlegm than > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > the mass is very > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > interested in > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > diagnostically. > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > damp looking. > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > thirst, which > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > had trouble > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > days, heavy the > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > Headache before > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > (dampheat?). > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > her emotions). > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > and maybe some > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Hi Matt--very interesting ideas. She had fibroids for many years that did not seem to be a problem for her so she didn't do anything about them. Then she started drinking coffee and they grew very quickly to the size they are now. Once she stopped drinking coffee they stopped growing. That seems like potentially a good prognosis to me--they seem to respond quickly to a change in what she takes in. From what I am reading here it sounds like it would be safe for me to attempt to treat them as long as she is following up with her doctor to make sure they are not growing. Matt, have you (or anyone else) seen success with acupuncture alone? I am a little wary of giving her the formula that I have for fibroids--it is very blood moving and she already has insomnia, cracks on her tongue, and not much coating, so it makes me a bit uncomfortable. She also has weak pulses. On the other hand, she has pretty good energy even on 5 hours of sleep a night....and that energy may be coming from heat from blood stagnation, which would make the herbs a good thing (or it could be heat from yin deficiency, which would not be such a good thing). Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hi Laura, > > You have been given good advice already on your fibroid(s) patient, I just thought I would add a little to that. One of the most helpful bits of information to have is not always available, namely - how long has a patient had what level of fibroid(s)? If this patient has had these multiple fibroids for months or years, then successful treatment is very difficult but then again, there is less worry that the problem will advance quickly and you have the luxury of trying your treatment, hoping for the best while watching for any signs of more growth. If this came on suddenly in the recent past, there is more risk it could get worse quickly but also a chance it could improve quickly too. If this patient is taking any estrogen, she should get off of it. Estrogen is fertilizer for tumors. You should also council to avoid meat raised with hormones and unfermented soy products. > > In the end, as much as we dislike the idea, she may need a hysterectomy. Multiple fibroids do not lend themselves as well to the treatment that blocks blood flow or fibroidectomy. Let her know that if she undergoes surgery, there is a lot you can do to speed her recovery and support her blood (hormone) health afterward. Please let the group know what becomes of your patient. - Matthew Bauer > - > heylaurag > Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 22, 2005 12:08 PM > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > Thanks for the replies--I take it from these responses that I should > tell her that herbs will not reduce the size, but may stop them from > growing? Are most fibroids that are this advanced many smaller ones > that create one large mass, or are they usually just one? I had > thought maybe I could treat her based on the fact that she has many > smaller ones, but also wondered if that is commonly the case in > advanced stages like this. > > I will give her the information and ideas shared here (eg: the > research studies etc.). > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , Steve Edwards > <sedwards16@a...> wrote: > > heylaurag wrote: > > > > >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > > >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > > >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > > >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > > >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > > >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > > >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > > >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > > >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or > not. > > > > > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > > >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > > > > >Thanks for your thoughts. > > > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > > ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > >>is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > >>(i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > >>that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > >>as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > >>shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > >>Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > >>would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > >>zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > >>points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > >>need to be repeatedly. > > >>luigi > > >>Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > >><peter911cm> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>Hi, Laura > > >>> > > >>>I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > >>>remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > >>>than 1 cm should be operated on. > > >>>Good luck > > >>> > > >>>Peter Pavolotsky > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>--- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > >>>that together > > >>>are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > >>>that surprises me > > >>>is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > >>>clue to her > > >>>primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > >>>more phlegm than > > >>>qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > >>>the mass is very > > >>>hard with distinct borders. Any > > >>>diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > >>>would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > >>>interested in > > >>>knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > >>>diagnostically. > > >>> > > >>>Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > >>>damp looking. > > >>>Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > >>>thirst, which > > >>>could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > >>>had trouble > > >>>falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > >>>days, heavy the > > >>>first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > >>>Headache before > > >>>period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > >>>(dampheat?). > > >>>Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > >>>her emotions). > > >>>Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > >>>and maybe some > > >>>dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > >>> > > >>>Thanks for any thoughts, > > >>> > > >>>Laura > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > >>>web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>and adjust accordingly. > > >>> > > >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any > > >>>duplication outside the group requires prior > > >>>permission from the author. > > >>> > > >>>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > >>>other academics, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2005 Report Share Posted April 22, 2005 Hi Sharon, I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately she does not have the easiest personality to do this with. She has that kind of disposition that to me says, " Don't you dare get too close and make me examine the pain I am hiding from " , which is consistent with stagnation and is the very thing that I would want to talk to her about, but a see a huge wall of defense in the way. She claims to be perfectly happy all the time...absolutely no emotional issues at all....and I don't buy it....something about that alcoholic husband of hers makes me think there's more pain than she admits (along with the undercurrent of rage I sense). Interestingly, I have a good old friend with the very same disposition and she also has fibroids. But you never know, sometimes treatment can shift these things. I think writing about this has helped me to see what it is that I have to offer her even if I cannot reduce the fibroids. Thanks for the thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Laura, > First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. > > What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the energetic > conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be as after > the operation as before. > > So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the fibroids. > Just my biased view, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag > Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Hi Laura, Your woman exemplifies extremely important points / questions for practitioners. What do you want to do? Support her in her current coping paradigm? Support her in using wm to cut away 'the problem'? Resolve the fibroids with acupuncture herbs whilst she continues to remain disconnected from the parts of herself / her life she doesn't want to deal with? Where is the disconnection going to manifest its self next? The fact that she feels no pain, suggests to me she is cut off from her pain and is relatively happy in that solution. Which of course is not only her right but the way she is choosing to do 'life' at the moment. No one can blame her for this. Will she connect with you, will she 'thank you' for disturbing her preferred way of coping or will she just resist you every step of the way? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here for me, however, I do think as practitioners we need to tease out for ourselves what we think is going on and then make our choices from there. And that choice may change from patient to patient... in one we support the wm procedure and her desire to keep going, keeping things covered up. In another we confront and call a spade a spade and if she moves on then that is her choice? Should you just refer on? Yet in another we consciously support looking for the opening to help her connect... Many ways for us to go as practitioners, again none wrong or bad, just possibilities of where we now stand. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag Saturday, 23 April 2005 8:08 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Hi Sharon, I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately she does not have the easiest personality to do this with. She has that kind of disposition that to me says, " Don't you dare get too close and make me examine the pain I am hiding from " , which is consistent with stagnation and is the very thing that I would want to talk to her about, but a see a huge wall of defense in the way. She claims to be perfectly happy all the time...absolutely no emotional issues at all....and I don't buy it....something about that alcoholic husband of hers makes me think there's more pain than she admits (along with the undercurrent of rage I sense). Interestingly, I have a good old friend with the very same disposition and she also has fibroids. But you never know, sometimes treatment can shift these things. I think writing about this has helped me to see what it is that I have to offer her even if I cannot reduce the fibroids. Thanks for the thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Laura, > First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. > > What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the energetic > conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be as after > the operation as before. > > So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the fibroids. > Just my biased view, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag > Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Could you try treating the jing well point for the Ko Cycle controlling Meridian?If the uterus is a part of the Water Elemental Phase and it is not being controlled properly, ie the tumor(fibroid), then why don't you treat the Earth Yin Organ,Spleen perhaps Spleen 6 or lower? I would treat both sides if both branches of the uterine horn are affected.Seems like one would need ultrasounds to document progress.Herbs to move blood and qi ,since a woman, something with angelica that would be a stasis breaker would also be appropiate.Ciao, P. Jordan > " heylaurag " <heylaurag >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? >Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:51:56 -0000 > > >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > >Thanks for your thoughts. > >Laura > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 Laura wrote " From what I am reading here it sounds like it would be safe for me to attempt to treat them as long as she is following up with her doctor to make sure they are not growing. " That's right, Laura. Most doctors will want to do the surgery because they see no other choice. But as long as there is no serious consequence to giving treatment more time, why not? As far as your question about acupuncture alone - it can be enough in some cases but the one you site sounds like a stretch. When considering herbs, you should not think in terms of " fibroid " herbs but those matching her constitution even if they do not seem to you to be the type recognized for fibroids or any other gynecological problem. Helping to balance your patients imbalances always helps them even if it does not make the critical difference in any particular imbalance manifestation such as fibroids. Just be sure you are not doing or giving anything that runs directly counter to your patients constitution and trust your differential diagnosis. - Matt Bauer - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Friday, April 22, 2005 2:59 PM Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Hi Matt--very interesting ideas. She had fibroids for many years that did not seem to be a problem for her so she didn't do anything about them. Then she started drinking coffee and they grew very quickly to the size they are now. Once she stopped drinking coffee they stopped growing. That seems like potentially a good prognosis to me--they seem to respond quickly to a change in what she takes in. From what I am reading here it sounds like it would be safe for me to attempt to treat them as long as she is following up with her doctor to make sure they are not growing. Matt, have you (or anyone else) seen success with acupuncture alone? I am a little wary of giving her the formula that I have for fibroids--it is very blood moving and she already has insomnia, cracks on her tongue, and not much coating, so it makes me a bit uncomfortable. She also has weak pulses. On the other hand, she has pretty good energy even on 5 hours of sleep a night....and that energy may be coming from heat from blood stagnation, which would make the herbs a good thing (or it could be heat from yin deficiency, which would not be such a good thing). Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hi Laura, > > You have been given good advice already on your fibroid(s) patient, I just thought I would add a little to that. One of the most helpful bits of information to have is not always available, namely - how long has a patient had what level of fibroid(s)? If this patient has had these multiple fibroids for months or years, then successful treatment is very difficult but then again, there is less worry that the problem will advance quickly and you have the luxury of trying your treatment, hoping for the best while watching for any signs of more growth. If this came on suddenly in the recent past, there is more risk it could get worse quickly but also a chance it could improve quickly too. If this patient is taking any estrogen, she should get off of it. Estrogen is fertilizer for tumors. You should also council to avoid meat raised with hormones and unfermented soy products. > > In the end, as much as we dislike the idea, she may need a hysterectomy. Multiple fibroids do not lend themselves as well to the treatment that blocks blood flow or fibroidectomy. Let her know that if she undergoes surgery, there is a lot you can do to speed her recovery and support her blood (hormone) health afterward. Please let the group know what becomes of your patient. - Matthew Bauer > - > heylaurag > Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 22, 2005 12:08 PM > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > Thanks for the replies--I take it from these responses that I should > tell her that herbs will not reduce the size, but may stop them from > growing? Are most fibroids that are this advanced many smaller ones > that create one large mass, or are they usually just one? I had > thought maybe I could treat her based on the fact that she has many > smaller ones, but also wondered if that is commonly the case in > advanced stages like this. > > I will give her the information and ideas shared here (eg: the > research studies etc.). > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , Steve Edwards > <sedwards16@a...> wrote: > > heylaurag wrote: > > > > >I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > > >has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > > >thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > > >size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > > >size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > > >growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > > >fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > > >this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > > >pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or > not. > > > > > >Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > > >importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > > > > >Thanks for your thoughts. > > > > > >Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > > ><defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > >>is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > >>(i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > >>that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > >>as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > >>shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > >>Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > >>would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > >>zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > >>points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > >>need to be repeatedly. > > >>luigi > > >>Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > >><peter911cm> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>Hi, Laura > > >>> > > >>>I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > >>>remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > >>>than 1 cm should be operated on. > > >>>Good luck > > >>> > > >>>Peter Pavolotsky > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>--- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > >>>that together > > >>>are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > >>>that surprises me > > >>>is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > >>>clue to her > > >>>primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > >>>more phlegm than > > >>>qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > >>>the mass is very > > >>>hard with distinct borders. Any > > >>>diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > >>>would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > >>>interested in > > >>>knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > >>>diagnostically. > > >>> > > >>>Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > >>>damp looking. > > >>>Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > >>>thirst, which > > >>>could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > >>>had trouble > > >>>falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > >>>days, heavy the > > >>>first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > >>>Headache before > > >>>period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > >>>(dampheat?). > > >>>Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > >>>her emotions). > > >>>Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > >>>and maybe some > > >>>dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > >>> > > >>>Thanks for any thoughts, > > >>> > > >>>Laura > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > >>>web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>and adjust accordingly. > > >>> > > >>>Messages are the property of the author. Any > > >>>duplication outside the group requires prior > > >>>permission from the author. > > >>> > > >>>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > >>>other academics, > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2005 Report Share Posted April 23, 2005 These are relatively easy to treat and will disappear if you diagnose well. Large r small does not matter, the basic pathology is the same. Holmes heylaurag wrote: > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Great response Laura. I am no expert on fibroids. I usally contact the herb company I use and ask questions. As to her overall treatment, tell her what you can do for her. You can treat her constitutionally, get blood and qi flowing more smoothly, which then paves the way for the body to heal itself. If you can keep her in treatment, you will probably get some of those repressed emotions moving (which in my humble opinion has a lot to do with masses forming). I am a five element practioner first, so I look for the elemental constitutional type that would fit for her. I had heard, along the way, that from a TCM perspective, wood is the element to visit for respressed emotions. Just a few more thoughts for your consideration. heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Sharon, > > I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately she does not have > the easiest personality to do this with. She has that kind of > disposition that to me says, " Don't you dare get too close and make me > examine the pain I am hiding from " , which is consistent with > stagnation and is the very thing that I would want to talk to her > about, but a see a huge wall of defense in the way. She claims to be > perfectly happy all the time...absolutely no emotional issues at > all....and I don't buy it....something about that alcoholic husband of > hers makes me think there's more pain than she admits (along with the > undercurrent of rage I sense). Interestingly, I have a good old > friend with the very same disposition and she also has fibroids. > > But you never know, sometimes treatment can shift these things. I > think writing about this has helped me to see what it is that I have > to offer her even if I cannot reduce the fibroids. Thanks for the > thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > Laura, > > First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. > > > > What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the > energetic > > conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be > as after > > the operation as before. > > > > So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the > fibroids. > > Just my biased view, > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of > heylaurag > > Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > > > > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference > or not. > > > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen > mass, > > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the > blood has > > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > > need to be repeatedly. > > > luigi > > > Chinese Medicine , Peter > Pavolotsky > > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > > Good luck > > > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > > that together > > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > > that surprises me > > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > > clue to her > > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > > more phlegm than > > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > > the mass is very > > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > > interested in > > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > > damp looking. > > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > > thirst, which > > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > > had trouble > > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > > days, heavy the > > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > > Headache before > > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > > (dampheat?). > > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > > her emotions). > > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > > and maybe some > > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Also remember that for some women there is a strong genetic component. Their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, etc. all have fibroids. About 40% of American women have fibroids by the age of 40, more if they are African-American. Some women can do all the " right " things, medically, nutritionally, herbally, emotionally, whatever, and they will still have fibroids. Be careful about assigning " cause " and " effect " here. Pat Hi Laura, Your woman exemplifies extremely important points / questions for practitioners. What do you want to do? Support her in her current coping paradigm? Support her in using wm to cut away 'the problem'? Resolve the fibroids with acupuncture herbs whilst she continues to remain disconnected from the parts of herself / her life she doesn't want to deal with? Where is the disconnection going to manifest its self next? The fact that she feels no pain, suggests to me she is cut off from her pain and is relatively happy in that solution. Which of course is not only her right but the way she is choosing to do 'life' at the moment. No one can blame her for this. Will she connect with you, will she 'thank you' for disturbing her preferred way of coping or will she just resist you every step of the way? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here for me, however, I do think as practitioners we need to tease out for ourselves what we think is going on and then make our choices from there. And that choice may change from patient to patient... in one we support the wm procedure and her desire to keep going, keeping things covered up. In another we confront and call a spade a spade and if she moves on then that is her choice? Should you just refer on? Yet in another we consciously support looking for the opening to help her connect... Many ways for us to go as practitioners, again none wrong or bad, just possibilities of where we now stand. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag Saturday, 23 April 2005 8:08 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Hi Sharon, I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately she does not have the easiest personality to do this with. She has that kind of disposition that to me says, " Don't you dare get too close and make me examine the pain I am hiding from " , which is consistent with stagnation and is the very thing that I would want to talk to her about, but a see a huge wall of defense in the way. She claims to be perfectly happy all the time...absolutely no emotional issues at all....and I don't buy it....something about that alcoholic husband of hers makes me think there's more pain than she admits (along with the undercurrent of rage I sense). Interestingly, I have a good old friend with the very same disposition and she also has fibroids. But you never know, sometimes treatment can shift these things. I think writing about this has helped me to see what it is that I have to offer her even if I cannot reduce the fibroids. Thanks for the thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Laura, > First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. > > What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the energetic > conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be as after > the operation as before. > > So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the fibroids. > Just my biased view, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag > Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Hi Pat, The high incidence of blood stagnation in the 'Palace of the Child' that you are quoting is not good. Is it genetic? I don't know. Is it a learnt way of coping with life, perhaps. Grandma use to chop a lot of wood which I suppose helped to move blood when sometimes things were frustrating and she couldn't do much about the frustrations. Can one be born with such a blood stagnation or a predisposition to such stagnation? Is it to do with a rushing yet sedentary lifestyle? Is it do with being overwhelmed without the ability to influence one's life, so better to be cut off from that which overwhelms? My points were also about what choices practitioners face when they feel that there are repressed emotions or denial in their patient. Perhaps this is irrelevant to many practitioners or perhaps it is a 'too hard' basket issue. Over my 11 years of practice, I have come to talk openly with my patients with the aim of creating a team between us. I don't do acupuncture to my patients, I do it with my patients. It just so happens that I feel more comfortable in this open way that acknowledges beliefs, and emotions and lifestyle factors and inter-relationship issues between family members of the person I am treating, I also state my bias and my aims. Whilst I suspect other practitioners prefer to stay with more 'medical' issues, I still think there are issues here that we as professionals would gain from when we explore these openly with colleagues. There really is no distinction between psycho and somatic dysfunction in Oriental medicine, poor mental digestion and poor physical digestion may go-hand-in hand. Blood stagnation on a physical level means that Qi is not leading blood. Why is Qi not leading? We may be able to resolve a particular blood stagnation, only to have it manifest in another place in the body. Maybe for some practitioners that ability to resolve the stagnation in one place is good work and what the patient was seeking. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Pat Ethridge Tuesday, 26 April 2005 12:26 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Also remember that for some women there is a strong genetic component. Their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, etc. all have fibroids. About 40% of American women have fibroids by the age of 40, more if they are African-American. Some women can do all the " right " things, medically, nutritionally, herbally, emotionally, whatever, and they will still have fibroids. Be careful about assigning " cause " and " effect " here. Pat Hi Laura, Your woman exemplifies extremely important points / questions for practitioners. What do you want to do? Support her in her current coping paradigm? Support her in using wm to cut away 'the problem'? Resolve the fibroids with acupuncture herbs whilst she continues to remain disconnected from the parts of herself / her life she doesn't want to deal with? Where is the disconnection going to manifest its self next? The fact that she feels no pain, suggests to me she is cut off from her pain and is relatively happy in that solution. Which of course is not only her right but the way she is choosing to do 'life' at the moment. No one can blame her for this. Will she connect with you, will she 'thank you' for disturbing her preferred way of coping or will she just resist you every step of the way? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here for me, however, I do think as practitioners we need to tease out for ourselves what we think is going on and then make our choices from there. And that choice may change from patient to patient... in one we support the wm procedure and her desire to keep going, keeping things covered up. In another we confront and call a spade a spade and if she moves on then that is her choice? Should you just refer on? Yet in another we consciously support looking for the opening to help her connect... Many ways for us to go as practitioners, again none wrong or bad, just possibilities of where we now stand. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag Saturday, 23 April 2005 8:08 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Hi Sharon, I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately she does not have the easiest personality to do this with. She has that kind of disposition that to me says, " Don't you dare get too close and make me examine the pain I am hiding from " , which is consistent with stagnation and is the very thing that I would want to talk to her about, but a see a huge wall of defense in the way. She claims to be perfectly happy all the time...absolutely no emotional issues at all....and I don't buy it....something about that alcoholic husband of hers makes me think there's more pain than she admits (along with the undercurrent of rage I sense). Interestingly, I have a good old friend with the very same disposition and she also has fibroids. But you never know, sometimes treatment can shift these things. I think writing about this has helped me to see what it is that I have to offer her even if I cannot reduce the fibroids. Thanks for the thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Laura, > First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. > > What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the energetic > conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be as after > the operation as before. > > So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the fibroids. > Just my biased view, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag > Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Hi, I wasn't the person who made this quote. I do think that fibroids can be a mixture of genetics, environmental and coping patterns, and one shouldn't base a treatment on an assumption that it is only one of these. I have seen that some are more blood stagnation, and some are more phlegm. I agree that it is useful to address the patient with the skills you describe below if you wish to do so. One has to go where the patient is willing to go, which may not always be the first choice the practitioner would make. I was arguing for a larger sense of what is possible, and also a wider sense of what may not be possible, in these situations, without assuming beforehand what is going on with a patient. Not that I would assume that beforehand with a practitioner, either. Thanks. Pat Hi Pat, The high incidence of blood stagnation in the 'Palace of the Child' that you are quoting is not good. Is it genetic? I don't know. Is it a learnt way of coping with life, perhaps. Grandma use to chop a lot of wood which I suppose helped to move blood when sometimes things were frustrating and she couldn't do much about the frustrations. Can one be born with such a blood stagnation or a predisposition to such stagnation? Is it to do with a rushing yet sedentary lifestyle? Is it do with being overwhelmed without the ability to influence one's life, so better to be cut off from that which overwhelms? My points were also about what choices practitioners face when they feel that there are repressed emotions or denial in their patient. Perhaps this is irrelevant to many practitioners or perhaps it is a 'too hard' basket issue. Over my 11 years of practice, I have come to talk openly with my patients with the aim of creating a team between us. I don't do acupuncture to my patients, I do it with my patients. It just so happens that I feel more comfortable in this open way that acknowledges beliefs, and emotions and lifestyle factors and inter-relationship issues between family members of the person I am treating, I also state my bias and my aims. Whilst I suspect other practitioners prefer to stay with more 'medical' issues, I still think there are issues here that we as professionals would gain from when we explore these openly with colleagues. There really is no distinction between psycho and somatic dysfunction in Oriental medicine, poor mental digestion and poor physical digestion may go-hand-in hand. Blood stagnation on a physical level means that Qi is not leading blood. Why is Qi not leading? We may be able to resolve a particular blood stagnation, only to have it manifest in another place in the body. Maybe for some practitioners that ability to resolve the stagnation in one place is good work and what the patient was seeking. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Pat Ethridge Tuesday, 26 April 2005 12:26 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Also remember that for some women there is a strong genetic component. Their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, etc. all have fibroids. About 40% of American women have fibroids by the age of 40, more if they are African-American. Some women can do all the " right " things, medically, nutritionally, herbally, emotionally, whatever, and they will still have fibroids. Be careful about assigning " cause " and " effect " here. Pat Hi Laura, Your woman exemplifies extremely important points / questions for practitioners. What do you want to do? Support her in her current coping paradigm? Support her in using wm to cut away 'the problem'? Resolve the fibroids with acupuncture herbs whilst she continues to remain disconnected from the parts of herself / her life she doesn't want to deal with? Where is the disconnection going to manifest its self next? The fact that she feels no pain, suggests to me she is cut off from her pain and is relatively happy in that solution. Which of course is not only her right but the way she is choosing to do 'life' at the moment. No one can blame her for this. Will she connect with you, will she 'thank you' for disturbing her preferred way of coping or will she just resist you every step of the way? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' here for me, however, I do think as practitioners we need to tease out for ourselves what we think is going on and then make our choices from there. And that choice may change from patient to patient... in one we support the wm procedure and her desire to keep going, keeping things covered up. In another we confront and call a spade a spade and if she moves on then that is her choice? Should you just refer on? Yet in another we consciously support looking for the opening to help her connect... Many ways for us to go as practitioners, again none wrong or bad, just possibilities of where we now stand. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag Saturday, 23 April 2005 8:08 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? Hi Sharon, I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately she does not have the easiest personality to do this with. She has that kind of disposition that to me says, " Don't you dare get too close and make me examine the pain I am hiding from " , which is consistent with stagnation and is the very thing that I would want to talk to her about, but a see a huge wall of defense in the way. She claims to be perfectly happy all the time...absolutely no emotional issues at all....and I don't buy it....something about that alcoholic husband of hers makes me think there's more pain than she admits (along with the undercurrent of rage I sense). Interestingly, I have a good old friend with the very same disposition and she also has fibroids. But you never know, sometimes treatment can shift these things. I think writing about this has helped me to see what it is that I have to offer her even if I cannot reduce the fibroids. Thanks for the thoughts. Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Laura, > First I don't know about resolving it with acupuncture. > > What I do suggest though, is that even if it is operated on, the energetic > conditions or the body's information systems are likely to still be as after > the operation as before. > > So maybe look at the cause with her rather than the result, ie the fibroids. > Just my biased view, > > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of heylaurag > Saturday, 23 April 2005 2:52 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Fibroids w/out Pain: Too advance? > > > > I was wondering whether this was too advanced to treat with TCM. She > has been told that her other option is a hysterectomy, and she is not > thrilled with that idea. I have been told that if the fibroid is the > size of a lemon or smaller we can treat effectively but if its the > size of a grapefruit or like a six month pregnant woman we can stop > growth, but we cannot reduce the size. Since she has many smaller > fibroids---as opposed to one large one---I wondered if I could treat > this successfully. Also, she's been told she is the size of a 5 month > pregnant woman---not 6---so I wondered if that made a difference or not. > > Anyone know? I don't want to waste her time and money, and more > importantly I don't want her to not get surgery when she should be. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " defrancoluis " > <defrancoluis> wrote: > > > > nel Lei Jing of Zhang Jiebin it is said that if do not have pain it > > is because blood and qi doesn't flow and being knotted in a 'bag' > > (i.e. uterus), it is difficult that that medicine could reach it, > > that's why it is difficult to treat. but in the general abdomen mass, > > as for your description, it belongs to the blood level, the blood has > > shape and stay still and those are difficult to break. according to > > Prince Chang Sang if the mass is in the lower part of the body it > > would be convenient to moxa points of the category of tianshu, > > zhangmen, shenshu, qihai, guanyuan, zhongji, shuidao; or to moxa > > points zhongwan, qimen, zhangmen, pishu, sanjiaoshu and tonggu. this > > need to be repeatedly. > > luigi > > Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky > > <peter911cm> wrote: > > > Hi, Laura > > > > > > I did not encounter such an advanced fibroids, but I > > > remember that my instructors told me that cyst bigger > > > than 1 cm should be operated on. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > > > > > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I have a 48 year old patient who has many fibroids > > > that together > > > are the size of a 5 month pregnant woman. The thing > > > that surprises me > > > is that she has no pain! I am wondering if this is a > > > clue to her > > > primary diagnosis. I am thinking that she must have > > > more phlegm than > > > qi and blood stagnation since there is no pain, but > > > the mass is very > > > hard with distinct borders. Any > > > diagnosis/herb/acupuncture ideas > > > would be greatly appreciated, but I am especially > > > interested in > > > knowing why there is no pain, and what that indicates > > > diagnostically. > > > > > > Her tongue is red without much coating---not at all > > > damp looking. > > > Tends to be warmer. However she does have a lack of > > > thirst, which > > > could be damp. Normal stools. Poor sleep--has always > > > had trouble > > > falling and staying asleep. Period every 22 to 28 > > > days, heavy the > > > first couple days then fine. No cramps, no PMS, > > > Headache before > > > period, not sure where on head. Long stringy clots > > > (dampheat?). > > > Emotions even (seems to me like someone who represses > > > her emotions). > > > Pulses are weak and thin. I see some yin deficiency > > > and maybe some > > > dampheat, but not much to explain the fibroids. > > > > > > Thanks for any thoughts, > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > > > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > > > duplication outside the group requires prior > > > permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > > > other academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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