Guest guest Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I've had the same experience with a couple of my patients. As soon as I started to tonify (HT & SP xu, Yin xu), they would get a cold. Inevitably. So we would hold off, treat the cold, wait a week or two past symptoms, then again - and bingo! No one in the TCM community had an explanation, and most dismissed it as coincidence. -Ben Hawes > >Message: 11 > Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:15:30 -0000 > " natdoc48 " <natdoc48 >Re: Herbal Formulas for Kidney Yin deficency reaction > > >Actually, I have had at least 3 " skilled " herbalists make that >diagnosis, along with the spleen qi deficiency. I am not making the >diagnosis or taking the herbs on my own. >My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and >several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does >not go to the tip. >I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly >wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency. >The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China, >insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs >should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to >do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this >prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis, >but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs, >after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the >herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold). > >I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency, >but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the >deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me >with respect to healing. > >My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night), night >sweats near my period, thirst. >My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the >right. Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and >thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid >(80 beats/min). >I have given up coffee and chocolate. I don't drink dairy--very >occasionally. Very little wheat. > >Does this help give a better picture? >Thanks again, >natdoc48 > >Chinese Medicine , " " ><zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > >>Get a skilled herbalist to painstakingly determine your pattern >>diagnosis in all of its complexity, and then you will be able to take >>herbal medicine, and, in turn, help others. >> >>There are several prescriptions that can supplement both yin and spleen >>qi, or you can combine prescriptions. However, in your case, it sounds >>like you should avoid sheng di huang. . . you may be able to balance >>out bai shao with other medicinals. >> >>First, let's go back to the beginning. What makes you think you are >>yin deficient? Is your tongue red, peeled or shriveled? What is your >>pulse like? What are your symptoms? Are you just assuming you are yin >>deficient? It seems to me that spleen vacuity is much more likely or >>at least predominant, judging by your reaction to the yin supplementing >>medicinals. >> >> >>On Apr 13, 2005, at 7:31 PM, natdoc48 wrote: >> >> >> >>>Thanks for your response. So my next question is...and I do think I >>>have a spleen qi deficiency--herb created or not...how do I balance >>>the spleen qi building with the yin building. My diagnoses have been >>>by others and everyone seems to have a different solution >>>---some insisting that I couldn't possibly have this reaction from >>>taking the yin building herbs. I very much want to practice this >>>wonderful medicine, but want to be able to help my own complicated >>>situation before I tackle those complicated cases of others. >>>If you have additional input on balancing these deficiencies, I am all >>>ears! >>> >>> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Interesting, In Toyohari five element style, one tonifies the most deficient yin according to the pulse and then clears the pathogenic qi which rises to the top of the pulse from the yang channels. I wonder if this might at least in part explain what you are seeing, that the pathogenic qi is being pushed out. In the TH style it is then cleared from the channels and not left to manifest... I may of course be quite inappropriate in my thinking. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Ben & Laura Hawes Wednesday, 20 April 2005 8:46 AM Chinese Medicine Re: colds & Yin tonification I've had the same experience with a couple of my patients. As soon as I started to tonify (HT & SP xu, Yin xu), they would get a cold. Inevitably. So we would hold off, treat the cold, wait a week or two past symptoms, then again - and bingo! No one in the TCM community had an explanation, and most dismissed it as coincidence. -Ben Hawes > >Message: 11 > Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:15:30 -0000 > " natdoc48 " <natdoc48 >Re: Herbal Formulas for Kidney Yin deficency reaction > > >Actually, I have had at least 3 " skilled " herbalists make that >diagnosis, along with the spleen qi deficiency. I am not making the >diagnosis or taking the herbs on my own. >My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and >several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does >not go to the tip. >I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly >wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency. >The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China, >insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs >should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to >do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this >prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis, >but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs, >after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the >herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold). > >I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency, >but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the >deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me >with respect to healing. > >My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night), night >sweats near my period, thirst. >My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the >right. Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and >thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid >(80 beats/min). >I have given up coffee and chocolate. I don't drink dairy--very >occasionally. Very little wheat. > >Does this help give a better picture? >Thanks again, >natdoc48 > >Chinese Medicine , " " ><zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > >>Get a skilled herbalist to painstakingly determine your pattern >>diagnosis in all of its complexity, and then you will be able to take >>herbal medicine, and, in turn, help others. >> >>There are several prescriptions that can supplement both yin and spleen >>qi, or you can combine prescriptions. However, in your case, it sounds >>like you should avoid sheng di huang. . . you may be able to balance >>out bai shao with other medicinals. >> >>First, let's go back to the beginning. What makes you think you are >>yin deficient? Is your tongue red, peeled or shriveled? What is your >>pulse like? What are your symptoms? Are you just assuming you are yin >>deficient? It seems to me that spleen vacuity is much more likely or >>at least predominant, judging by your reaction to the yin supplementing >>medicinals. >> >> >>On Apr 13, 2005, at 7:31 PM, natdoc48 wrote: >> >> >> >>>Thanks for your response. So my next question is...and I do think I >>>have a spleen qi deficiency--herb created or not...how do I balance >>>the spleen qi building with the yin building. My diagnoses have been >>>by others and everyone seems to have a different solution >>>---some insisting that I couldn't possibly have this reaction from >>>taking the yin building herbs. I very much want to practice this >>>wonderful medicine, but want to be able to help my own complicated >>>situation before I tackle those complicated cases of others. >>>If you have additional input on balancing these deficiencies, I am all >>>ears! >>> >>> > > > > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Announcing a 15 hour expert Weekend Workshop on *5 Element Diagnosis by Design* professionally recorded on a set of 4 DVDS! It is presented by Dr. Holmes Keikobad, Baccalaureate in Medicine & Surgery, Diplomate in Community Medicine. Diplomate in Acupuncture, National Boards Certified, Licensed Acupuncturist, U.S.A. Retired from medical practice, he exclusively practices and teaches a Classical 5 Elemental style he has developed over decades with which you learn an easier way of applying 5 element energetics to diagnose complicated cases. Often patients come with a wide array of symptoms and it is difficult to prioritize what to treat. With Deep Design you easily find the one main element which went wrong first, sometimes years ago, and you treat this, taking care of the whole ensemble of problems with the least number of needles. The *5 Element Diagnosis by Design* Distance Learning Workshop on DVD earns 15 CEUS/PDAS with the widely respected National Certification Council for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, U.S.A.and is approved in many States. Cost: U.S.$299; or you can pay in Euros 232.77; Canadian $372.82; British Pound 157.95; Australian $ 389.15 In all cases shipping is free. A VHS version is available only in the U.S. at same cost. * To Preview and order on line : http://www.acu-free.com/indexaustralia.htm Community Acupuncture Clinic, Tru Self Inc 4120 N Goldwater Blvd Suite 213 Scottsdale 85251 U.S.A. Phone 480.481.0009. Email: drholmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Hi, Ben & Laura I have seen this as well. My explanation (though not very firm): Deficient Yin organs promote stagnated type of Yin Heat which tend to surface and provide some external pathogen defense. (Older people often proudly say, that when younger they often had Colds/Flus, but now much less. In reality I think it is a sign of a stagnated heat rooted in some deficiencies). When balance deficiencies (i.e. Sp or He) first thing balance is a qi flow (even before organ systems in question are substantially recuperated). When Qi flows, stagnated heat diminishes but Sp doesn’t start to produce yet enough Qi (and with Lu Wei Qi) so temporarily body is vulnerable. Peter Pavolotsky --- Ben & Laura Hawes <ben_laura wrote: I've had the same experience with a couple of my patients. As soon as I started to tonify (HT & SP xu, Yin xu), they would get a cold. Inevitably. So we would hold off, treat the cold, wait a week or two past symptoms, then again - and bingo! No one in the TCM community had an explanation, and most dismissed it as coincidence. -Ben Hawes > >Message: 11 > Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:15:30 -0000 > " natdoc48 " <natdoc48 >Re: Herbal Formulas for Kidney Yin deficency reaction > > >Actually, I have had at least 3 " skilled " herbalists make that >diagnosis, along with the spleen qi deficiency. I am not making the >diagnosis or taking the herbs on my own. >My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and >several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does >not go to the tip. >I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly >wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency. >The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China, >insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs >should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to >do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this >prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis, >but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs, >after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the >herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold). > >I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency, >but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the >deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me >with respect to healing. > >My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night), night >sweats near my period, thirst. >My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the >right. Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and >thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid >(80 beats/min). >I have given up coffee and chocolate. I don't drink dairy--very >occasionally. Very little wheat. > >Does this help give a better picture? >Thanks again, >natdoc48 > >Chinese Medicine , " " ><zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > >>Get a skilled herbalist to painstakingly determine your pattern >>diagnosis in all of its complexity, and then you will be able to take >>herbal medicine, and, in turn, help others. >> >>There are several prescriptions that can supplement both yin and spleen >>qi, or you can combine prescriptions. However, in your case, it sounds >>like you should avoid sheng di huang. . . you may be able to balance >>out bai shao with other medicinals. >> >>First, let's go back to the beginning. What makes you think you are >>yin deficient? Is your tongue red, peeled or shriveled? What is your >>pulse like? What are your symptoms? Are you just assuming you are yin >>deficient? It seems to me that spleen vacuity is much more likely or >>at least predominant, judging by your reaction to the yin supplementing >>medicinals. >> >> >>On Apr 13, 2005, at 7:31 PM, natdoc48 wrote: >> >> >> >>>Thanks for your response. So my next question is...and I do think I >>>have a spleen qi deficiency--herb created or not...how do I balance >>>the spleen qi building with the yin building. My diagnoses have been >>>by others and everyone seems to have a different solution >>>---some insisting that I couldn't possibly have this reaction from >>>taking the yin building herbs. I very much want to practice this >>>wonderful medicine, but want to be able to help my own complicated >>>situation before I tackle those complicated cases of others. >>>If you have additional input on balancing these deficiencies, I am all >>>ears! >>> >>> > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Peter, A few questions: On Apr 20, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Peter Pavolotsky wrote: > > Hi, Ben & Laura > > I have seen this as well. My explanation (though not > very firm): > Deficient Yin organs promote stagnated type of Yin > Heat which tend to surface and provide some external > pathogen defense. (Older people often proudly say, > that when younger they often had Colds/Flus, but now > much less. In reality I think it is a sign of a > stagnated heat rooted in some deficiencies). What is stagnated 'yin heat'? > When balance deficiencies (i.e. Sp or He) first thing > balance is a qi flow (even before organ systems in > question are substantially recuperated). When Qi > flows, stagnated heat diminishes but Sp doesn’t start > to produce yet enough Qi (and with Lu Wei Qi) so > temporarily body is vulnerable. While the spleen vacuity is definitely a factor in susceptibility to colds, according to Li Dong-yuan, I don't understand where you are coming from with the stagnated heat and lack of qi flow. How do these factors influence external evils invading the body? > > > I've had the same experience with a couple of my > patients. As soon as I > started to tonify (HT & SP xu, Yin xu), they would get > a cold. > Inevitably. So we would hold off, treat the cold, wait > a week or two > past symptoms, then again - and bingo! > No one in the TCM community had an explanation, and > most dismissed it as > coincidence. > > -Ben Hawes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Hi, Z'ev Thank you for your remark. Sp Def leads to Dampness; Dampness leads to stagnation; Stagnation to heat. Heat tend to go up and to the surface. Hence, a possible defense against exterior cold pathogen. If Sp tonified - Dampness reduced – Stagnation reduced – Heat reduced. All happens relatively quickly. But Sp still doesn’t produce enough Qi (end Wei Qi) for a good defense – vulnerability to colds. Sp needs longer tonification Yin Heat (my understanding of Li Dong-yuan concept) is a heat from any Yin system Deficiency (Ki def – Yin deficient Heat; Sp def – Dampness stagnated heat; Liv Yin/Blood def – Liv heat; etc) Z’ev this recourse is hypothetical by me, so I am quite open to critic and to being corrected. Peter Pavolotsky --- <zrosenbe wrote: Peter, A few questions: On Apr 20, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Peter Pavolotsky wrote: > > Hi, Ben & Laura > > I have seen this as well. My explanation (though not > very firm): > Deficient Yin organs promote stagnated type of Yin > Heat which tend to surface and provide some external > pathogen defense. (Older people often proudly say, > that when younger they often had Colds/Flus, but now > much less. In reality I think it is a sign of a > stagnated heat rooted in some deficiencies). What is stagnated 'yin heat'? > When balance deficiencies (i.e. Sp or He) first thing > balance is a qi flow (even before organ systems in > question are substantially recuperated). When Qi > flows, stagnated heat diminishes but Sp doesn’t start > to produce yet enough Qi (and with Lu Wei Qi) so > temporarily body is vulnerable. While the spleen vacuity is definitely a factor in susceptibility to colds, according to Li Dong-yuan, I don't understand where you are coming from with the stagnated heat and lack of qi flow. How do these factors influence external evils invading the body? > > > I've had the same experience with a couple of my > patients. As soon as I > started to tonify (HT & SP xu, Yin xu), they would get > a cold. > Inevitably. So we would hold off, treat the cold, wait > a week or two > past symptoms, then again - and bingo! > No one in the TCM community had an explanation, and > most dismissed it as > coincidence. > > -Ben Hawes To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky <peter911cm> wrote: > Sp Def leads to Dampness; Dampness leads to > stagnation; Stagnation to heat. Heat tend to go up and > to the surface. Hence, a possible defense against > exterior cold pathogen. > this revives an ongoing debate on whether a pathological process can produce a physiological result. IIRC wei qi protects the surface by regulating the cou li, opening to release sweat and closing to defend the body from external pathogens. in my mind it doesn't follow that just having heat floating to the surface would function in the same manner. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2005 Report Share Posted April 21, 2005 Hi, I think this is a very creative and interesting thought process. I have seen that some people---like smokers---seem to never or rarely catch colds, and it does not seem to be as a result of health. For instance, people with chronic fatigue syndrome often do not ever really catch any real colds, adn I've heard it said that if you can ever get them sick they often can feel better than ever for having gone through it. I wish that I understood Anne's response about using 5 element acupuncture to clear the heat that comes up from yin tonification better. It sounds very intersting. One of these days I might have to learn 5 Element acupuncture...and Japanese...while simultaneously learning mroe about TCM...ARGH! Laura Chinese Medicine , Peter Pavolotsky <peter911cm> wrote: > Hi, Z'ev > > Thank you for your remark. > > Sp Def leads to Dampness; Dampness leads to > stagnation; Stagnation to heat. Heat tend to go up and > to the surface. Hence, a possible defense against > exterior cold pathogen. > > If Sp tonified - Dampness reduced – Stagnation reduced > – Heat reduced. All happens relatively quickly. But > Sp still doesn't produce enough Qi (end Wei Qi) for a > good defense – vulnerability to colds. Sp needs longer > tonification > > Yin Heat (my understanding of Li Dong-yuan concept) is > a heat from any Yin system Deficiency (Ki def – Yin > deficient Heat; Sp def – Dampness stagnated heat; Liv > Yin/Blood def – Liv heat; etc) > > Z'ev this recourse is hypothetical by me, so I am > quite open to critic and to being corrected. > > Peter Pavolotsky > > > > --- <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Peter, > A few questions: > > On Apr 20, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Peter Pavolotsky wrote: > > > > > Hi, Ben & Laura > > > > I have seen this as well. My explanation (though not > > very firm): > > Deficient Yin organs promote stagnated type of Yin > > Heat which tend to surface and provide some external > > pathogen defense. (Older people often proudly say, > > that when younger they often had Colds/Flus, but now > > much less. In reality I think it is a sign of a > > stagnated heat rooted in some deficiencies). > > What is stagnated 'yin heat'? > > > When balance deficiencies (i.e. Sp or He) first > thing > > balance is a qi flow (even before organ systems in > > question are substantially recuperated). When Qi > > flows, stagnated heat diminishes but Sp doesn't > start > > to produce yet enough Qi (and with Lu Wei Qi) so > > temporarily body is vulnerable. > > While the spleen vacuity is definitely a factor in > susceptibility to > colds, according to Li Dong-yuan, I don't understand > where you are > coming from with the stagnated heat and lack of qi > flow. How do these > factors influence external evils invading the body? > > > > > > > > I've had the same experience with a couple of my > > patients. As soon as I > > started to tonify (HT & SP xu, Yin xu), they would > get > > a cold. > > Inevitably. So we would hold off, treat the cold, > wait > > a week or two > > past symptoms, then again - and bingo! > > No one in the TCM community had an explanation, and > > most dismissed it as > > coincidence. > > > > -Ben Hawes > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this > web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with > other academics, > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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