Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hi All, What points do YOU use for hiccough/hiccup (diaphragmatic spasm)? There is considerable discrepancy between authors as to the points . My " Top Ten " Cookbook points for the diaphragm [ http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/ad2.htm#a50700 ] include: BL17, PC06, CV12, ST36, CV15, CV17, LV14, GB24, ST13, CV22 Points listed by other authors include: BL02, BL17, BL20, BL21, BL46, CV04, CV06, CV10, CV12, CV13, CV22, GB34, GV14, GV26, LI10, LI17, LV13, LV14, PC04, PC06, SI11, SI17, SJ06, SJ17, SP04, ST21, ST25, ST36, ST40, ST44, middle Sifeng, Earpoint Diaphragm, SP, ST, LU, etc. (see below). Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu FC, Chen CA, Yang SS, Lin SH. Acupuncture therapy rapidly terminates intractable hiccups complicating acute myocardial infarction. South Med J. 2005 Mar;98(3):385-7. Department of Cardiology, Tri- Service General Hospital, National Defense Medical Center, Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China. Acupuncture is a well-known alternative therapy in practice worldwide. Its dramatic effect on hiccups has been rarely reported. We describe a 77-year-old male who had hiccups after an acute myocardial infarction. Despite aggressive treatment including breath-holding to interrupt the respiratory rhythm, continuous positive airway pressure, and medication with metoclopramine, prochlorperazine, chlorpromazine, haloperidol, mephenesin, diphenylhydantoin, baclofen, and phenobarbital, the hiccups persisted for 7 days. Eventually, the hiccups were rapidly terminated by acupuncture at acupoint GV14 (Da zhui). To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report of acupuncture's reversing intractable hiccups after an acute myocardial infarction. Acupuncture may be considered for patients with hiccups refractory to conventional therapy. PMID: 15813167 [PubMed - in process] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fa-Xuan, S. Acupuncture at Rhezong in treatment of severe hiccups.: a clinical report of 105 cases. Inter J Clin Acup 5(3): 351-353, 1994. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fan, X-l. Acupuncture at Shanwan and Neiguan in treating intractible hiccup. Inter J clin Acup 7(2): 189-190, 1996 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guo-Wei, C. and Huai-Dian, F. Electric needling of Tianding in treatment of intractible hiccups: a clinical study of 55 cases. Inter J Clin Acup 5(3): 347-350, 1994. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zejiang Journal of Traditional , P392, Vol.35 No.9 2000/09: Experience for the Treatment of Hiccups: Hiccup is a common disease. Mild cases may be just because of sudden inhalation of cold air which can go away by itself or just be treated by one needle. Severe cases often relate to internal organ diseases, like ST ulcer, gastritis, abdominal surgery, or stimulation of the diaphragm at the end of some cancers. These severe hiccups often last for a long time and are easy to relapse. 1. Regulate qi to stop hiccup: Hiccups relate to the rise of SJM-SP-ST qi. For ones due to internal organ disorder or simple long-term hiccups, we should regulate Qi as the main treatment. Four points Neiguan (PC06), Hegu( LI04), Zusanli (ST36) and Yinlingquan SP09) will be selected. Neiguan - relax chest and ease diaphragm Hegu - Downbear Ascending Qi Zusanli & Yinlingquan are He-sea points, indicated to treat Ascending Qi (hiiccups, cough, burping, etc) and Sinking Qi (diarrhea) For acute disease, use reducing technique for the 4 points. Retain the needles for 10-20 minutes. For weak patients or chronic conditions, reinforce Hegu and Neiguan, reduce Zusanli and Yinlingquan. Reinforce the upper points and reduce the lower points so as to Downbear Qi. Moxibustion could be given to each point 10-15 minutes. Add Zhigou (SJ06) & Yanglingquan (GB34) with reducing technique for LV & ST Heat/Fire w ST or hypochondriac fullness and distension, constipation. Or add Zhangmen (LV13). Give acupuncture followed by cupping. Chronic hiccups w SP Qi Xu, warming needle therapy at Zhongwan (CV12) and Qihai (CV06). 2. Open the orifices to stop hiccup: Some cases are caused by sudden attack of cold wind or weak body affected by cold. For this type, we should disperse wind cold, disperse LU qi and open the orifice (nose). Ba Dou or pepper was used before to cause sneezing. Points we should use will be Zanzhu (BL02), Tianrong (SI17) and Shousanli (LI10). Zanzhu (BL02) - Taiyang meridian point, Taiyang is the body surface. This point is used to disperse EPFs, wind and cold. The point is above the nose and eyes and therefore good to open the orifice. Needling bilateral Zanzhu will often stop hiccups immediately. When needling this point, we should first palpate with thumb or index finger nails to find the most sensitive points between Zanzhu and Yuyao (Extra point), and then puncture perpendicularly with a 1-cun needle. The tip should reach the bone and small amplitude rotation or lifting-thrusting will be applied to make the aching or distending sensation to the orbital area and the nose. It will be especially good if the sensation stimulates tears. Retain the needle for 5-15 minutes, and remove the needle with slight rotation after hiccup had stopped. Tianrong (SI17) - good to relax the throat and the diaphragm, open the orifice and stop the hiccup. Puncture perpendicularly for 1-1.2 cun and make the sensation going to the throat and Jianjing (GB21) points. Do not needle too deep. Retain the needle for 5-10 minutes. Shousanli (LI10) - usually used to treat shoulder and arm pain, aphonia, but also has good effect for stopping hiccups. Puncture perpendicularly 1-1.2 cun causing strong sensation (reducing technique). Retain the needle for 10-15 minutes. The above three points are used for new and simple hiccups. One point for mild cases and all the three points for severe conditions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Qi Y. Treatment of hiccough with acupuncture on middle sifeng. J Tradit Chin Med. 1993 Sep;13(3):202. Provincial Institute of Acupuncture & Moxbustion, Shanxi Province. Publication Types: Case Reports PMID: 8246596 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Li X, Yi J, Qi B. Treatment of hiccough with auriculo-acupuncture and auriculo-pressure--a report of 85 cases. J Tradit Chin Med. 1990 Dec;10(4):257-9. Department of Traditional , First Teaching Hospital, Bethune Medical College. Publication Types: Case Reports PMID: 2277528 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tcm.health-info.org/ Acupuncture at BL02 + BL17 + BL46, CV17, CV22 Hiccup “ E Ni Sudden Qi Ascent to the throat, dt Stomach Qi attacking the diaphragm. Western Medicine: Kidney Disorders with hiccup is Bad News Irregular Diet -eating too fast“too cold“too much =impairs ST,Qi cannot descend -eating too pungent = dry heat in ST. Emotion -Liver Qi Stagnation “ anger turns to fire “ creates phlegm “ damages Spleen “ effects Stomach -Usually Hiccups accompanied with Cough. SP./KD. Yang Def. -Qi also deficient “ spleen looses clearing and descending turbid Qi function “ Chronic diarrhea ST. Yin Def. -Lack of fluids “ deficient fire in Stomach, fire goes upward causing hiccups Differentiate: Hiccup - comes from throat, comes suddenly Nausea - comes from stomach, doesn™t come suddenly Belching - gas released from stomach, ameliorated by belch, may be accompanied with acid regurgitation and abdominal distention. loud = excess weak = deficient cold =deep sound heat = loud & short Cold in Stomach “ Excess Hiccup “ deep sound, aggravated by cold Diet of cold food, exterior cold invasion, cold pathogens block stomach Qi, stomach looses it™s harmony and it™s descending function, cold sensation in abdomen. T “ white coat P “ delayed , slow Treatment: Warm up middle Jiao, expel cold, descend stomach Qi Formula Ding Xiang San Stomach Fire “ Excess Hiccup “ loud, strong, short (explosive) Diet of hot/spicy, excess alcohol, excess yang tonics, heat signs of thirst, desires cold drink, dry stools, constipation T “ red, yellow dry coat P “ slippery, rapid Treatment: purge stomach fire, descend stomach Qi to relieve hiccup Formula Qing Wei San + Shi Di & Zhu Ru Phlegm & Qi Stagnation “ Excess Hiccup “ accompanied with cough Patient feels as though they can not breathe properly, tightness in chest, general phlegm stagnation symptoms, dizzy, poor appetite, flatulence Possible liver Qi stagnation = hypochondriac distention T “ greasy coat P - slippery Treatment: regulate Qi, transform phlegm, descend Qi to regulate hiccup. Formula Xuan Fu Dai Zhe Shi Tang Spleen & Kidney Yang Deficiency Hiccup “ weak, long sound with intermittent attacks Chronic hiccups, middle jiao Qi deficiency, nautious, vomit of clear water, general fullness in abdomen, ameliorated by warmth & pressure, spleen yang deficient symptoms & kidney yang deficiency symptoms, lower back and knee weakness, pale complexion, fatigue T “ pale, white coat P “ thin, weak Treatment: warm and strengthen spleen & kidney to harmonize stomach Qi Formula Fu Zi Li Zhong Tang + Shi Di / Ding Xian Stomach Yin Deficiency Hiccup “ short, urgent, intermittent attacks Stomach yin deficient symptoms, thirst, dry tongue, dry lips, poor appetite, bloating after meals, dry stool, night sweat. T “ red, scanty/dry coat P “ thin, rapid Treatment: nourish stomach yin to harmonize stomach Qi Formula Yi Wei Tang Hiccup Stomach Qi rebelling. More related to Cold, and overeating. Stomach and Lung are involved. Western medicine “ GI neurosis, gastritis. late stage cirrhosis, brain and kidney disorders, GI disorders in general can all cause the diaphragm to spasm. When a chronic severe disorder shows hiccups the prognosis is not good. Accumulation of Cold in Stomach deep long forceful hiccup, pain in Stomach (discomfort) is relieved by warmth and induced by cold, T- white moist coat, P- slow P/T “ warm mid Jiao, expel Cold, descend Stomach Qi Acupuncture Rx “ sedate, moxa, foot yangming, hand jueyin, *Ren 22 (descend Qi), *PC 6 (Yin wei opens chest & diaphragm), *BL 17 (ge shu), *ST 36, Ren 12, LR 13, BL 20, 21, Ren 4 - nausea, vomit, acid reflux “ ST 21 Stomach Fire up-surging loud clear forceful hiccups, bad breath, thirst for cold drinks, dry stools and/or constipation, P- slippery rapid, T- red, with yellow coat P/T “ clear and purge Stomach Fire, descend Stomach Qi Acupuncture Rx “ foot yangming, hand jueyin, *Ren 22, *BL 17, *ST 36, *PC 6, ST 25, 44, LI 4, SP 4 & PC 4 (nausea- Chong) - bitter taste or dry mouth “ ST 43 Qi and Phlegm stagnation continuous hard to stop hiccups (can sometimes lead to vomiting), induced by emotional stress, poor appetite, nausea, gas, belching, chest fullness, T- thin greasy coat, P- wiry slippery Liver attack Spleen that causes Phlegm. P/T “ regulate Qi, transform Phlegm, harmonize Stomach Qi Acupuncture Rx “ foot yangming, both jueyin, *Ren 22, *PC 6, *ST 36, *BL 17, LR 14, GB 43, ST 40, GB 34 - dizziness “ Du 20, GB 20 Spleen Stomach Yang deficiency deep weak low tone hiccup, pale face, cold limbs, poor appetite, fatigue, cold body, P- deep thin, T- white coat P/T “ warm mid Jiao, harmonize Stomach Qi Acupuncture Rx “ tonify, moxa, foot yangming, hand jueyin, *Ren 22, *PC 6, *ST 36, * BL 17, Ren 12, BL 20, 21, Ren 6 - cold lower back “ Ren 4 & 8 (moxa and needle) Stomach Yin deficiency short intermittent quick hiccups, dry mouth and tongue, irritable, dry stool, T- red, cracked, scanty dry coat, P- thin rapid P/T “ nourish Stomach Yin and fluids, descend Stomach Qi Acupuncture Rx “ tonify, *Ren 22, *PC 6, *ST 36, *BL 17, 21, Ren 12, KI 3 or 6 - poor appetite “ Ren 10, SP 3 Alternative treatment methods auricular “ mid ear, shenmen, subcortex, ST LR SP tricks “ try to make person sneeze, shock them, hold breath, drink appropriate temperature water, push on eyeball, push with thumb on BL 2 for 5 minutes, SI 11 for 5 minutes, push down on Ren 22 for 1 minute while person holds breath, push SJ 17 until it hurts scalp acupuncture “ St region, chest region electro “ Ren 12, ST 36 moxa “ direct injection “ vitamin B1 in Hua tou from T5-T7, BL 17, ren 12, ST 36, PC 6, Ren 22 *Always perform treatment from head to toe (top to bottom) to bring down Qi www.yinyanghouse.com/chinesetheory/organdisharmony-STsum.html ST Rebellious Qi Pattern usually appears with ST a/or other organ patterns and is related to the ST not descending the Qi, regurgitation, belching, hiccups, vomiting; Tongue: Normal; Pulse: Tight. General Treatment Points: Maciocia Treatment Points w/Valaskatagis commentary, modifications and additions CV12 (ST Mu); CV13 (descend ST Qi); CV10 (descend ST Qi, lower ST issues); SP04 / PC06 (yinweimai, chongmai); Earpoint Diaphragm; BL17; BL46 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hi All, Anthony Campbell wrote: > I once treated a young man who had been hiccupping continuously for 24 > hours. I just put a needle into his epigastrium and it stopped > instantly. Anthony Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 And whatever caused it was lost to Mankind. For ever. Holmes 1.888.TCM.CEUS www.acu-free.com wrote: > Hi All, > > Anthony Campbell wrote: > > I once treated a young man who had been hiccupping continuously for 24 > > hours. I just put a needle into his epigastrium and it stopped > > instantly. Anthony > > Best regards, > > Email: < > > WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eprogers/searchap.htm> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 I am becoming an unwitting champion of 5 E Chivalry, which is to say a borderline bore, and don't really relish the role, but to paraphrase an Easter Idiom, " It is not I who stick to the mantle, but hear ye all, 'tis the mantle which sticks to me " To elaborate on what Phil posted: If a patient is hicupping away for 24 hours plus, something is emphatically wanting to be noticed. 5 E profile of hiccup: Air is drawn in - LU flourishing Air is stopped short at the tracheal inlet - LU curtailed. Something is wrong with LU element in 5 E terms. To extrapolate: Q. Can it be an unpleasantly turned Mother Earth who is causing this? A. No, Mothers, howeverly ill tempered, do not, at least in China, do a murder on their Sons. Elsewhere in the wild Orient and in the tame Occident, what Mummy does next is up for grabs and can and will surprise the prudent and the ill prepared. Q. Can it be a Full and Soggy K Water Son who is backing up into the Mater LU? A. No not really, excuse us. Sons will not do that, not because of filial temperament, but because they simply ain't provided the Reversal Gradient. Q. Can it be Woody Shmoody at LV? A. No, it can't, Woody can go occasionally mad and blow hurricanely all over the place and precipitate a Rage, but it can do no nothing' to LU because the pathway ain't there. Q. Can LU do this to LU? A. You don't seriously expec' me to answer that! Q. Can HT at Fire Element be ........ ? A. Yess! Only Fire can do a murderous on LU. Q. Was the epigastrial point which quelled the storm a HT Mu at Ren 14? A. Very likely so. Q. G'wan. Are you seriouslike? A. Yuss. Q. Jus' a small needle in the HT mu and the deed is done? A. Not just a small needle, more like a HT Yin Deficient quelled by a mu which replenished HT and which in turn aborted the attack on a very vulnerable LU. Q. In which case did we miss a beat and do something sacrilegious towards the 5 E God? A. No we did not, in fact doing a HT Offending LU Design did propitiate the 5 E God overmuch, opening the way for Heavenly Largess. Q. Which is Manna, or a frog less sky, or bypassing the count in the Book of Names? A. Nope.it is the Gift with which one Diagnoses by Design and not by symptomatic rote swallowed whole in School. Q. Smartly smug, aren't you? A. Actually, smugly smart. Q. So the Diagnosis on the Hicupping Man? A. HT Yin Deficient Murderin' LU. Q. That all? A. All. Q. Follow up? A. Watch the seasons, work with a dire Sad. Q. As in? A. Well, Summer is on the way, call in the man and work like mad to Heal the Heart Wholly. Can be done May 7 through August 6. Q. After which? A. If ask, you cannot be told. Exeunt. Holmes 1.888.TCM.CEUS www.acu-free.com dkakobad wrote: > And whatever caused it was lost to Mankind. > > For ever. > > Holmes > 1.888.TCM.CEUS > www.acu-free.com > > > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > Anthony Campbell wrote: > > > I once treated a young man who had been hiccupping continuously for 24 > > > hours. I just put a needle into his epigastrium and it stopped > > > instantly. Anthony > > > > Best regards, > > > > Email: < > > > > WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eprogers/searchap.htm> > > <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eprogers/searchap.htm> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Hello, I saw a good case at ACTCM as an undergraduate. This man had hiccups for 17 years or so. An unfortunate by-product of surgery left him in misery. I think every prescription previously listed was tried on him to no avail. Finally a new antipsychotic (I believe) gave him relief. In the lesser realm of Barefoot/Party trick Acupuncture, I have had 99% success in minor acute hiccup by " jamming " my nail into the persons ear and have them take deep breaths while stimulating Zero or Diaphram point. 15 seconds or so. Very effective. Cameron Chinese Medicine , " " <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, > > Anthony Campbell wrote: > > I once treated a young man who had been hiccupping continuously for 24 > > hours. I just put a needle into his epigastrium and it stopped > > instantly. Anthony > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > > Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2005 Report Share Posted April 24, 2005 Great Holmes, you have and great sense of humor, poetry, logic and simplicity toward this medicine. It brings it alive for me. Thanks, Anne dkakobad wrote: > I am becoming an unwitting champion of 5 E Chivalry, which is to say a > borderline bore, and > don't really relish the role, but to paraphrase an Easter Idiom, " It is > not I who stick to > the mantle, but hear ye all, 'tis the mantle which sticks to me " > > To elaborate on what Phil posted: > > If a patient is hicupping away for 24 hours plus, something is > emphatically wanting > to be noticed. > > 5 E profile of hiccup: > Air is drawn in - LU flourishing > Air is stopped short at the tracheal inlet - LU curtailed. > > Something is wrong with LU element in 5 E terms. > > To extrapolate: > Q. Can it be an unpleasantly turned Mother Earth who is causing this? > A. No, Mothers, howeverly ill tempered, do not, at least in China, do a > murder > on their Sons. Elsewhere in the wild Orient and in the tame Occident, > what Mummy does next > is up for grabs and can and will surprise the prudent and the ill > prepared. > > Q. Can it be a Full and Soggy K Water Son who is backing up into the > Mater LU? > A. No not really, excuse us. Sons will not do that, not because of > filial temperament, but > because they simply ain't provided the Reversal Gradient. > > Q. Can it be Woody Shmoody at LV? > A. No, it can't, Woody can go occasionally mad and blow hurricanely all > over the place > and precipitate a Rage, but it can do no nothing' to LU because the > pathway ain't there. > > Q. Can LU do this to LU? > A. You don't seriously expec' me to answer that! > > Q. Can HT at Fire Element be ........ ? > A. Yess! Only Fire can do a murderous on LU. > > Q. Was the epigastrial point which quelled the storm a HT Mu at Ren 14? > A. Very likely so. > > Q. G'wan. Are you seriouslike? > A. Yuss. > > Q. Jus' a small needle in the HT mu and the deed is done? > A. Not just a small needle, more like a HT Yin Deficient quelled by a mu > which > replenished HT and which in turn aborted the attack on a very > vulnerable LU. > > Q. In which case did we miss a beat and do something sacrilegious > towards the > 5 E God? > A. No we did not, in fact doing a HT Offending LU Design did > propitiate the > 5 E God overmuch, opening the way for Heavenly Largess. > > Q. Which is Manna, or a frog less sky, or bypassing the count in the > Book of Names? > A. Nope.it is the Gift with which one Diagnoses by Design and not by > symptomatic rote > swallowed whole in School. > > Q. Smartly smug, aren't you? > A. Actually, smugly smart. > > Q. So the Diagnosis on the Hicupping Man? > A. HT Yin Deficient Murderin' LU. > > Q. That all? > A. All. > > Q. Follow up? > A. Watch the seasons, work with a dire Sad. > > Q. As in? > A. Well, Summer is on the way, call in the man and work like mad to Heal > the Heart > Wholly. Can be done May 7 through August 6. > > Q. After which? > A. If ask, you cannot be told. > > Exeunt. > > Holmes > 1.888.TCM.CEUS > www.acu-free.com > > > dkakobad wrote: > > > And whatever caused it was lost to Mankind. > > > > For ever. > > > > Holmes > > 1.888.TCM.CEUS > > www.acu-free.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Anthony Campbell wrote: > > > > I once treated a young man who had been hiccupping continuously > for 24 > > > > hours. I just put a needle into his epigastrium and it stopped > > > > instantly. Anthony > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Email: < > > > > > > WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > > > > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eprogers/searchap.htm> > > <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eprogers/searchap.htm> > > > <http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eprogers/searchap.htm> > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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