Antibiotics + TCM / Vitamin C

[Guest guest]

1) Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:50:19 -0700, " " <zrosenbe

wrote:

 

>The first issue is whether what the antibiotics are treating. A vast

majority of respiratory infections are viral, so the use of antibiotics is

not appropriate in these cases, and can damage the correct qi.

 

A piece in the NY Times (March 5, Science section) on URT infections states

" The average adult catches two or three colds [presumably rhino-viruses -

my note] a year, and 0.5 to 2 percent of them are complicated by bacterial

infections. " and " taking an antibiotic does nothing more than enrich the

pharmaceutical companies and increase the chances of being infected with

drug-resistant bacteria. " Furthermore, " …study after careful study has

shown no reliable benefit of antibiotics when doctors try to apply

[standard symptom guidelines, in lieu of concrete evidence (culture testing

or simple microscopic examination of mucus)]. "

 

Recently a patient of mine, a basically healthy 17yo boy with allergies,

who is responding well to ATx and HBx, had an annual exam by his allergist.

The MD noticed what he considered excessive sinus drainage, and, without

any specific testing, prescribed Levaquin - a powerful synthetic

broad-spectrum antibiotic. As the kid is currently studying and interested

in biology, I gave him (and his parents) a copy of the PDR write-up on this

drug, ostensibly as a sort of class exercise. It does mention that the

prescription of the drug should be prefaced by sensitivity testing, and

mentions side effects like musculo-tendinal rupturing (the boy is a

long-distance runner).

 

2) Vitamin C and CM

 

Last November, Jeffery Yuen presented a day's worth of material on

" Nutritional supplements from (one) Chinese medical perspective " (the last

of a six-day series on diet and CM). The material was structured in his

usual tripartite framework:

a) wei qi level / Lung and Liver - water soluble vitamins, C, B;

glyconutrients;

b) ying qi level / Spleen and Heart - fat soluble vitamins (blood), EFAs

and amino acids (yin);

c) yuan qi level / Kidney and San Jiao - minerals (yang)

 

Fascinating material.

 

For example, on Vitamin C (according to my notes):

 

Sharing general characteristics of the wei level - water soluble, secreted

in sweat, urine, sputum, not stored, except pathologically (too much become

" expensive urine " ); required daily; absorbed in the intestines, mostly SI;

brings more da qi (oxygen) into the blood. (All animals except humans,

chimpanzees, and guinea pigs can synthesize vitamin-C.)

 

Vitamin C: goes to the Lungs, mobilizes wei qi; therapeutic dose start

500mg and upwards, up to diarrhea; affects wei qi, sinew meridians,

wind-cold/damp/heat; its acidity is yang; good with WC, WD, less WH

(combine with B vitamins, bioflavenoids); accelerates excretion of other

supplements, i.e. " regulates the water passages " (lungs); antioxidant, i.e.

rids heat; if response is diarrhea - xu St yin, e.g. IBS - can use

L-Glutamine (300mg+) to moisten St yin; if BCP (birth control pills), use

no more than 1 gr - vit-c competes with estrogen (slows its secretion);

vit-c needed for iron absorption, which needs the acidity / St fire; helps

the " pure yang of the stomach " , especially in the oral cavity; with long

term use becomes cooling - near the yang end of the spectrum can flip into

yin; overtime brings oxygen into the blood, helps the vessels unblock, eats

away plaque, scar tissue; too much -> diarrhea [wei qi of the intestinal

membranes and peristalsis], skin rash.

 

3) I don't think this conflicts with Z'ev's comments on vitamin C (or

supplements in general), as Jeffery is working from a CM framework (as he

explicitly notes, " one " CM perspective). Rather, he is so immersed in (his)

CM viewpoint, that he is able to relate everything and anything to the

principles of the medicine. (As he also does with essential oils.) A

similar depth of immersion I have also noted, for another example, in Dr

Lam Kong's views, i.e. in terms of yin-yang. These doctors/teachers

exemplify what I heard a couple of times in school, without fully

understanding at the time - that CM is at heart more a system of principles

and perspectives, than of specific techniques and prescriptions.

 

In ever deepening bewonderment,

 

[Guest guest]

As a student of TCM with help me out here...

 

On Apr 16, 2005, at 7:22 AM, wrote:

> Last November, Jeffery Yuen presented a day's worth of material on

> " Nutritional supplements from (one) Chinese medical perspective " (the

> last

> of a six-day series on diet and CM). The material was structured in

> his

> usual tripartite framework:

> a) wei qi level / Lung and Liver - water soluble vitamins, C, B;

> glyconutrients;

> b) ying qi level / Spleen and Heart - fat soluble vitamins (blood),

> EFAs

> and amino acids (yin);

> c) yuan qi level / Kidney and San Jiao - minerals (yang)

>

 

Given we know the adrenal cortex is the major source of vitamin C

storage, and uses C as well as Pantothenic acid & pyridoxine for

hormone production how could they not go to the KD? Is it that the

observation is that it may have changes on the skin (i.e. scurvy)

therefore it goes to the LU?

I guess the same could be said for Gan Cao as it isn't classified to go

to the KD or LR in TCM yet has glucocorticoid (LR,KD) and

mineralcorticoid (KD) like activity.

 

Since E is mostly stored in the adipose tissue I guess that makes the

case for the SP.??

 

I'm just trying to understand the line of thinking here and assume it

is just observation. Obviously I'm stuck in a western mind-set.

 

>

> vit-c needed for iron absorption, which needs the acidity / St fire;

 

Only true for non-heme iron to convert ferric to ferrous. Heme Fe not

affected by achlorhydia.

 

 

wrapping my head around the non-definitive nature of TCM,

George Mandler

[Guest guest]

George,

Could it not be an expression of one element within another, so that the Vit

C could be found in many places?

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of George

Mandler

Saturday, 16 April 2005 10:34 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Antibiotics + TCM / Vitamin C

 

 

As a student of TCM with help me out here...

 

On Apr 16, 2005, at 7:22 AM, wrote:

> Last November, Jeffery Yuen presented a day's worth of material on

> " Nutritional supplements from (one) Chinese medical perspective " (the

> last

> of a six-day series on diet and CM). The material was structured in

> his

> usual tripartite framework:

> a) wei qi level / Lung and Liver - water soluble vitamins, C, B;

> glyconutrients;

> b) ying qi level / Spleen and Heart - fat soluble vitamins (blood),

> EFAs

> and amino acids (yin);

> c) yuan qi level / Kidney and San Jiao - minerals (yang)

>

 

Given we know the adrenal cortex is the major source of vitamin C

storage, and uses C as well as Pantothenic acid & pyridoxine for

hormone production how could they not go to the KD? Is it that the

observation is that it may have changes on the skin (i.e. scurvy)

therefore it goes to the LU?

I guess the same could be said for Gan Cao as it isn't classified to go

to the KD or LR in TCM yet has glucocorticoid (LR,KD) and

mineralcorticoid (KD) like activity.

 

Since E is mostly stored in the adipose tissue I guess that makes the

case for the SP.??

 

I'm just trying to understand the line of thinking here and assume it

is just observation. Obviously I'm stuck in a western mind-set.

 

>

> vit-c needed for iron absorption, which needs the acidity / St fire;

 

Only true for non-heme iron to convert ferric to ferrous. Heme Fe not

affected by achlorhydia.

 

 

wrapping my head around the non-definitive nature of TCM,

George Mandler

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

----------

--

[Guest guest]

Let's not forget that vit C is an isolated substance taken out of a much

more complex plant. This is extreme by ancient standards with no real known

parallels. New territory here.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

> <>

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Antibiotics + TCM / Vitamin C

>Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:39:26 +1000

>

>George,

>Could it not be an expression of one element within another, so that the

>Vit

>C could be found in many places?

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

>Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of George

>Mandler

> Saturday, 16 April 2005 10:34 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Antibiotics + TCM / Vitamin C

>

>

> As a student of TCM with help me out here...

>

> On Apr 16, 2005, at 7:22 AM, wrote:

> > Last November, Jeffery Yuen presented a day's worth of material on

> > " Nutritional supplements from (one) Chinese medical perspective " (the

> > last

> > of a six-day series on diet and CM). The material was structured in

> > his

> > usual tripartite framework:

> > a) wei qi level / Lung and Liver - water soluble vitamins, C, B;

> > glyconutrients;

> > b) ying qi level / Spleen and Heart - fat soluble vitamins (blood),

> > EFAs

> > and amino acids (yin);

> > c) yuan qi level / Kidney and San Jiao - minerals (yang)

> >

>

> Given we know the adrenal cortex is the major source of vitamin C

> storage, and uses C as well as Pantothenic acid & pyridoxine for

> hormone production how could they not go to the KD? Is it that the

> observation is that it may have changes on the skin (i.e. scurvy)

> therefore it goes to the LU?

> I guess the same could be said for Gan Cao as it isn't classified to go

> to the KD or LR in TCM yet has glucocorticoid (LR,KD) and

> mineralcorticoid (KD) like activity.

>

> Since E is mostly stored in the adipose tissue I guess that makes the

> case for the SP.??

>

> I'm just trying to understand the line of thinking here and assume it

> is just observation. Obviously I'm stuck in a western mind-set.

>

> >

> > vit-c needed for iron absorption, which needs the acidity / St fire;

>

> Only true for non-heme iron to convert ferric to ferrous. Heme Fe not

> affected by achlorhydia.

>

>

> wrapping my head around the non-definitive nature of TCM,

> George Mandler

>

>

>

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

>group

>requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics,

>

>

>

>

>----------

>--

>

[Guest guest]

It may have been one of Bob Flaws books I was thinking of, rather than Tierra

on energetics of nutritional supplements :

 

http://www.bluepoppy,com

 

They have lots of good books, anyway, although I hate having to always

translate formula names.

 

Joe Reid

jreidomd.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

Purist 5 E understanding, which is to say the most simple approach, will

consider

all ingest ants as either food and legitimate, or alien and therefore

external pathogens.

 

If a vitamin is needed in the body and is in a natural form such a

vegetable or

or animal tissue, it is assimilated much like food and does not invoke a 5 E

response other that it would for food.

 

If however the vitamin is not needed at the time, or is taken in a

quantity which

renders a surplus in the gut or in the blood stream, and is in an alien

form such

as a gelatin capsule, or a coated pill with constituents which are inert

carriers,

like as not this will be seen as an intruder substance.

 

5 E responses are not oppositional or one which exclude or extrude the

substance

from the body. The reaction is simply one of dealing with a pathogen,

which has

entered in, much like Cold or Excess Food or Damp.

 

In the 48th Difficult Issue the Sage discusses this and explains all

reactions to

pathogens as those causing an Excess.

 

Vit C, in case it was not required, and came in gel caps or tab for

liquid form, would then

be see, if ingested, as an Excess causing factor at the gut level.

 

We have then an External Pathogen in the ST part of Earth.

 

5 E consequences:

1. ST runs an Excess

2. This transfers by Shen bond, to Metal, esp to bowel.

3. This transfers to bowel by Yangming bond, causing more immediate

disturbances.

4. This transfers to, more dangerously, K Water, in an Aggressing manner.

5. This might back up into SI if there were a weak gradient there.

 

If someone is on a regular dose of artificially carried Vit C in doses

which exceed

what is required, there will be these consequences:

ST - hyper acidity, stagnation, slower emptying time, Heat.

LI - bowel Dry, constipation, Heat, later Hot Colon and the consequences

thence

LU - Dry, hence tending to dyspnea, cough and constriction

K - a Deficiency in K Water qi, an Excess in UB, and therefore in SI &

DU vessel

 

Holmes

1.888.TCM.CEUS

www.acu-free.com