Herbal Formulas for Kidney Yin deficency reaction

[Guest guest]

Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in oriental

medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency and I end

up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt great my

first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes, sleeping better,

calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then developed this " head

cold " . Next I took just 1 pill and develop a severe headache. Ever

since, I can take just one or two pills of anything with sheng di

huang or shan yao and I get " sick " (like a cold). I even soaked raw

shan yao and added it in very small amounts to rice congee. One

serving, same reaction.

Any suggestions? I now get sick with a cold at least once a month,

whether I take the herbs or not. I was not this way before taking yin

tonic herbs.

Thanks for helping.

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have heard of this happening. A friend of mine who is an

acupuncturist/herbalist also took yin tonics while in school and got

to the point where she was catching cold/flus constantly. The yin

tonics did her wonders, but then she had a new problem. I think that

you must have caught a cold while you were on the yin tonics and you

did not realize it, so the yin tonics held in the pathogen in until it

became a lingering pathogen. She went on a variation of Xiao Chai Hu

Tang for quite a few months and the problem resolved. I will warn you

though that she was getting quite yin xu again while on the Xiao Chai

Hu Tang, but once the problem was resolved she was able to take yin

tonics again and be well.

 

I'm not sure how we can protect against the happening. Yin tonics are

amazing when you need them, but they do come with potential problems.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " natdoc48 "

<natdoc48> wrote:

>

>

> Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in oriental

> medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency and I end

> up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt great my

> first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes, sleeping better,

> calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then developed this " head

> cold " . Next I took just 1 pill and develop a severe headache. Ever

> since, I can take just one or two pills of anything with sheng di

> huang or shan yao and I get " sick " (like a cold). I even soaked raw

> shan yao and added it in very small amounts to rice congee. One

> serving, same reaction.

> Any suggestions? I now get sick with a cold at least once a month,

> whether I take the herbs or not. I was not this way before taking yin

> tonic herbs.

> Thanks for helping.

[Guest guest]

natdoc48 wrote:

>

>

> Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in

> oriental medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency

> and I end up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt

> great my first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes,

> sleeping better, calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then

> developed this " head cold " . Next I took just 1 pill and develop a

> severe headache. Ever since, I can take just one or two pills of

> anything with sheng di huang or shan yao and I get " sick " (like a

> cold). I even soaked raw shan yao and added it in very small amounts

> to rice congee. One serving, same reaction.

 

Hi Nat!

 

Vitamin C, time release in large dosage, 3000 x 3 until the cold goes

away, then 2000 x 3 as maintenance. Take a multi vitamin and a multi

mineral as well.

 

If Sheng Di and Shan Yao are making you sick then don't take them, just

like western med, they can have a side effect on some people.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Pete:

 

Is there a certain brand of Vit C that is time released. I don't

remember seeing this on the labels of mine.

 

Anne

 

Pete Theisen wrote:

 

> natdoc48 wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in

> > oriental medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency

> > and I end up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt

> > great my first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes,

> > sleeping better, calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then

> > developed this " head cold " . Next I took just 1 pill and develop a

> > severe headache. Ever since, I can take just one or two pills of

> > anything with sheng di huang or shan yao and I get " sick " (like a

> > cold). I even soaked raw shan yao and added it in very small amounts

> > to rice congee. One serving, same reaction.

>

> Hi Nat!

>

> Vitamin C, time release in large dosage, 3000 x 3 until the cold goes

> away, then 2000 x 3 as maintenance. Take a multi vitamin and a multi

> mineral as well.

>

> If Sheng Di and Shan Yao are making you sick then don't take them, just

> like western med, they can have a side effect on some people.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

>

>

> ------

>

[Guest guest]

An orange at b' fast

A grated apple at lunch

A ha' cup water chestnuts by eventide

Will stand instead to a marv' lous degree

For time released radicals of Vit C.

 

Holmes

www.acu-free.com

 

 

 

Anne Crowley wrote:

 

> Pete:

>

> Is there a certain brand of Vit C that is time released. I don't

> remember seeing this on the labels of mine.

>

> Anne

>

> Pete Theisen wrote:

>

> > natdoc48 wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in

> > > oriental medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency

> > > and I end up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt

> > > great my first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes,

> > > sleeping better, calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I will give them a try and see

how it goes. I love reading the postings in the group and have found

many very helpful.

Natdoc48

 

Chinese Medicine , dkakobad

<dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> An orange at b' fast

> A grated apple at lunch

> A ha' cup water chestnuts by eventide

> Will stand instead to a marv' lous degree

> For time released radicals of Vit C.

>

> Holmes

> www.acu-free.com

>

>

>

> Anne Crowley wrote:

>

> > Pete:

> >

> > Is there a certain brand of Vit C that is time released. I don't

> > remember seeing this on the labels of mine.

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > Pete Theisen wrote:

> >

> > > natdoc48 wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in

> > > > oriental medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin

deficiency

> > > > and I end up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt

> > > > great my first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes,

> > > > sleeping better, calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anne Crowley wrote:

> Pete:

>

> Is there a certain brand of Vit C that is time released. I don't

> remember seeing this on the labels of mine.

>

 

Hi Anne!

 

Time released is a type of pill that dissolves slowly so the whole dose

doesn't hit you at once and give you diarrhea. Some brands I have used

are Solgar, Country Life and NOW.

 

The Country Life came in 2000 but no one around here carries it any

more. I was a sick puppy until I started taking it in high dosages.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

dkakobad wrote:

> An orange at b' fast

> A grated apple at lunch

> A ha' cup water chestnuts by eventide

> Will stand instead to a marv' lous degree

> For time released radicals of Vit C.

>

 

Hi Dr. Holmes!

 

In a marv' lous world I would agree with you 100%. But most of us are

living in a cesspool nowadays and the more your immune system has to

cope with the more vitamin c it needs.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

There are a number of possibilities:

1) you either misdiagnosed yourself as yin deficient, or someone else

did.

2) you have both yin and spleen qi vacuity, meaning you cannot

tolerate large doses of di huang/rehmannia.

3) the yin supplementing herbs damaged the spleen qi, and now you need

to supplement the spleen and stomach and strengthen your defense qi to

avoid catching cold.

 

These kinds of things happen a lot when experimenting with herbs as a

student. I see it all the time with my own herb students. Don't

worry, we used to experiement with da huang and fu zi back in the

seventies!

 

 

On Apr 10, 2005, at 8:20 AM, natdoc48 wrote:

 

> Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in oriental

> medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency and I end

> up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt great my

> first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes, sleeping better,

> calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then developed this " head

> cold " . Next I took just 1 pill and develop a severe headache. Ever

> since, I can take just one or two pills of anything with sheng di

> huang or shan yao and I get " sick " (like a cold). I even soaked raw

> shan yao and added it in very small amounts to rice congee. One

> serving, same reaction.

> Any suggestions? I now get sick with a cold at least once a month,

> whether I take the herbs or not. I was not this way before taking yin

> tonic herbs.

> Thanks for helping.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your response. So my next question is...and I do think I

have a spleen qi deficiency--herb created or not...how do I balance

the spleen qi building with the yin building. My diagnoses have been

by others and everyone seems to have a different solution

---some insisting that I couldn't possibly have this reaction from

taking the yin building herbs. I very much want to practice this

wonderful medicine, but want to be able to help my own complicated

situation before I tackle those complicated cases of others.

If you have additional input on balancing these deficiencies, I am all

ears!

Thanks again,

natdoc

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> There are a number of possibilities:

> 1) you either misdiagnosed yourself as yin deficient, or someone else

> did.

> 2) you have both yin and spleen qi vacuity, meaning you cannot

> tolerate large doses of di huang/rehmannia.

> 3) the yin supplementing herbs damaged the spleen qi, and now you need

> to supplement the spleen and stomach and strengthen your defense qi to

> avoid catching cold.

>

> These kinds of things happen a lot when experimenting with herbs as a

> student. I see it all the time with my own herb students. Don't

> worry, we used to experiement with da huang and fu zi back in the

> seventies!

>

>

> On Apr 10, 2005, at 8:20 AM, natdoc48 wrote:

>

> > Hi! I am a 3rd yr student in my last 6 months of training in oriental

> > medicine. I have taken numerous formulas for yin deficiency and I end

> > up with lots of phlegm and congestion in my head. I felt great my

> > first month on KAN's Quell Fire (reduced hot flashes, sleeping better,

> > calmer) (I am perimenopausal age), but then developed this " head

> > cold " . Next I took just 1 pill and develop a severe headache. Ever

> > since, I can take just one or two pills of anything with sheng di

> > huang or shan yao and I get " sick " (like a cold). I even soaked raw

> > shan yao and added it in very small amounts to rice congee. One

> > serving, same reaction.

> > Any suggestions? I now get sick with a cold at least once a month,

> > whether I take the herbs or not. I was not this way before taking yin

> > tonic herbs.

> > Thanks for helping.

> >

[Guest guest]

Get a skilled herbalist to painstakingly determine your pattern

diagnosis in all of its complexity, and then you will be able to take

herbal medicine, and, in turn, help others.

 

There are several prescriptions that can supplement both yin and spleen

qi, or you can combine prescriptions. However, in your case, it sounds

like you should avoid sheng di huang. . . you may be able to balance

out bai shao with other medicinals.

 

First, let's go back to the beginning. What makes you think you are

yin deficient? Is your tongue red, peeled or shriveled? What is your

pulse like? What are your symptoms? Are you just assuming you are yin

deficient? It seems to me that spleen vacuity is much more likely or

at least predominant, judging by your reaction to the yin supplementing

medicinals.

 

 

On Apr 13, 2005, at 7:31 PM, natdoc48 wrote:

 

> Thanks for your response. So my next question is...and I do think I

> have a spleen qi deficiency--herb created or not...how do I balance

> the spleen qi building with the yin building. My diagnoses have been

> by others and everyone seems to have a different solution

> ---some insisting that I couldn't possibly have this reaction from

> taking the yin building herbs. I very much want to practice this

> wonderful medicine, but want to be able to help my own complicated

> situation before I tackle those complicated cases of others.

> If you have additional input on balancing these deficiencies, I am all

> ears!

[Guest guest]

Actually, I have had at least 3 " skilled " herbalists make that

diagnosis, along with the spleen qi deficiency. I am not making the

diagnosis or taking the herbs on my own.

My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and

several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does

not go to the tip.

I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly

wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency.

The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China,

insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs

should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to

do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this

prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis,

but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs,

after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the

herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold).

 

I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency,

but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the

deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me

with respect to healing.

 

My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night), night

sweats near my period, thirst.

My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the

right. Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and

thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid

(80 beats/min).

I have given up coffee and chocolate. I don't drink dairy--very

occasionally. Very little wheat.

 

Does this help give a better picture?

Thanks again,

natdoc48

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Get a skilled herbalist to painstakingly determine your pattern

> diagnosis in all of its complexity, and then you will be able to take

> herbal medicine, and, in turn, help others.

>

> There are several prescriptions that can supplement both yin and spleen

> qi, or you can combine prescriptions. However, in your case, it sounds

> like you should avoid sheng di huang. . . you may be able to balance

> out bai shao with other medicinals.

>

> First, let's go back to the beginning. What makes you think you are

> yin deficient? Is your tongue red, peeled or shriveled? What is your

> pulse like? What are your symptoms? Are you just assuming you are yin

> deficient? It seems to me that spleen vacuity is much more likely or

> at least predominant, judging by your reaction to the yin supplementing

> medicinals.

>

>

> On Apr 13, 2005, at 7:31 PM, natdoc48 wrote:

>

> > Thanks for your response. So my next question is...and I do think I

> > have a spleen qi deficiency--herb created or not...how do I balance

> > the spleen qi building with the yin building. My diagnoses have been

> > by others and everyone seems to have a different solution

> > ---some insisting that I couldn't possibly have this reaction from

> > taking the yin building herbs. I very much want to practice this

> > wonderful medicine, but want to be able to help my own complicated

> > situation before I tackle those complicated cases of others.

> > If you have additional input on balancing these deficiencies, I am all

> > ears!

[Guest guest]

Hello NatDoc48,

 

>My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and

>several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does

>not go to the tip.

 

It is probably a Yin Xu you are suffering from, however my best guess

is that it's a St Yin Xu which, correct me if I am wrong, could be

aggrevated by even the smallest amount of strong tasting substances -

herbs included. It can't be an entirely deficient condition due to the

fact that your toungue actually has peeling -it's gotta have a coating

to peel and hence not all deficiency.

 

>I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly

>wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency.

 

And also indicating that the Spleen Qi Xu is of the Yang type not

transforming and transporting properly causing Dampness and probably

(Sp) Blood Xu

 

>The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China,

>insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs

>should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to

>do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this

>prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis,

>but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs,

>after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the

>herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold).

 

Well the herbs apparently DO affect you in that way and hence

something is wrong with either diagnosis and/or treatment.... I do

understand your frustration.... especially concidering 67th chapter of

the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse reactions to

treatment - no healing crises.... just bad diagnosis and/or treatment.

Not meaning to be attacky or anything just reminding myself that we

all make mistakes and should be willing to learn from them in order to

maximize our human potentials...

 

>I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency,

>but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the

>deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me

>with respect to healing.

 

Overly trying to " boost " your Spleen Xu through herbs might just have

the opposite effect and it would probably be more proper to go about

treating your condition a bit slower through diet and accupuncture.

What are your def. heat symptoms by the way? Nightsweats only?

 

>My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night),

 

Most likely dampness or Yang Xu (ie Spleen Yang Xu)

 

>night sweats near my period,

 

Blood Xu aggrevated into Yin Xu?

 

> thirst.

 

Desire for cold drinks?

Desire for Hot drinks?

No desire to drink even though thirsty?

 

>My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the

>right.

 

Right side corresponds to Qi - taking the pulse positions into

concideration... So Qi Xu, probably due to the Spleen Yang Xu.

 

>Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and

>thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid

>(80 beats/min).

 

I guess this actually points more towards Blood (Blood running hot due

to stagnation?!) and Qi Xu than actual Yin Xu?!

 

Even though it would be nice to hear about your digestion (bloating,

pains, nausea or vomiting after eating, sour regurgitation, feces,

etc) and your periods (scanty, pain, clots, etc.) I might dare an

attempt on a diagnosis that might go something like this:

 

St Yin Xu inhibiting the Stomach from sufficiently rottening and

ripening the food causing a Sp Qi/Yang Xu which again causes blood Xu

and Dampness due to difficulty in transforming and transporting. The

deficiency of Qi and Blood would cause stagnation and heat in the long

run and I guess - in combinations with a St Yin Xu - it could show as

symptoms like nightsweats?!

 

When you take (heavy) doses of herbs or you would actually overload

the St and Sp causing a stagnation of Lu Qi (ie due to overflooding by

Dampness from the Sp) making you vounerable to external invasions

since the Wei Qi can't be distributed properly since Lu function is

impaired.

 

Could very well be wrong, but this would be my 2 cents worth:

 

If it is the right diagnosis then following advices on diet would

probably be beneficial:

 

NO raw foods! Long term boiled, baked, broiled foods that are rich in

root vegetables are easy on the St. Herbs for cooking should be

aromatic (moves Qi and Blood) and not used in large doses as to cover

the foods natural sweet taste whcich will support the Sp. Apples

grated and cooked would be good for moistening the St. without

Dampening the Sp. Avoidance of all greasy, spicy and dairy foods as

well as - very importantly - wheat products (and oats). Wheat products

tend to kill the Sp by drowning it in Dampness........ Add almonds and

barlye (tea or porridge) to your daily diet since these will support

St and Sp as well as drain Dampness getting the Blood production up to

speed. Add a bit of sour and salty to your diet too since this will

loosen the Liv so it is helped in keeping the Qi flow the and as well

support the Kid (to treat the Sp treat the Kid and to treat the Kid

treat the Sp) It could be Japanese plums (Umeboshi) which are

wonderful to eat and provides both the sour and salty tastes.

 

And then get some acupuncture treatments to treat your deficiencies

more subtly - at least to begin with.

 

This was my humble opinion - ready to learn if wrong!

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas Sorensen

L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

Great job, you took (some of) the words right out of my mouth!

 

Yes, a stomach yin vacuity heat pattern needs to be considered

alongside a sp qi vacuity pattern. They often appear together. The

tongue here is the key.

 

I agree that paying attention to diet, and using mild supplementing

medicinals in tandem will be a good way to start.

 

The main instructor you mention is in denial. The diagnosis is

incorrect, you should not be getting these symptoms. If there is a

reaction, the herbs do not match the pattern. Otherwise, no symptoms.

 

Beautiful analysis, Thomas.

 

 

On Apr 15, 2005, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Boegedal Soerensen wrote:

 

>

>

> Hello NatDoc48,

>

>> My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and

>> several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does

>> not go to the tip.

>

> It is probably a Yin Xu you are suffering from, however my best guess

> is that it's a St Yin Xu which, correct me if I am wrong, could be

> aggrevated by even the smallest amount of strong tasting substances -

> herbs included. It can't be an entirely deficient condition due to the

> fact that your toungue actually has peeling -it's gotta have a coating

> to peel and hence not all deficiency.

>

>> I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly

>> wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency.

>

> And also indicating that the Spleen Qi Xu is of the Yang type not

> transforming and transporting properly causing Dampness and probably

> (Sp) Blood Xu

>

>> The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China,

>> insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs

>> should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to

>> do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this

>> prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis,

>> but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs,

>> after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the

>> herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold).

>

> Well the herbs apparently DO affect you in that way and hence

> something is wrong with either diagnosis and/or treatment.... I do

> understand your frustration.... especially concidering 67th chapter of

> the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse reactions to

> treatment - no healing crises.... just bad diagnosis and/or treatment.

> Not meaning to be attacky or anything just reminding myself that we

> all make mistakes and should be willing to learn from them in order to

> maximize our human potentials...

>

>> I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency,

>> but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the

>> deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me

>> with respect to healing.

>

> Overly trying to " boost " your Spleen Xu through herbs might just have

> the opposite effect and it would probably be more proper to go about

> treating your condition a bit slower through diet and accupuncture.

> What are your def. heat symptoms by the way? Nightsweats only?

>

>> My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night),

>

> Most likely dampness or Yang Xu (ie Spleen Yang Xu)

>

>> night sweats near my period,

>

> Blood Xu aggrevated into Yin Xu?

>

>> thirst.

>

> Desire for cold drinks?

> Desire for Hot drinks?

> No desire to drink even though thirsty?

>

>> My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the

>> right.

>

> Right side corresponds to Qi - taking the pulse positions into

> concideration... So Qi Xu, probably due to the Spleen Yang Xu.

>

>> Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and

>> thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid

>> (80 beats/min).

>

> I guess this actually points more towards Blood (Blood running hot due

> to stagnation?!) and Qi Xu than actual Yin Xu?!

>

> Even though it would be nice to hear about your digestion (bloating,

> pains, nausea or vomiting after eating, sour regurgitation, feces,

> etc) and your periods (scanty, pain, clots, etc.) I might dare an

> attempt on a diagnosis that might go something like this:

>

> St Yin Xu inhibiting the Stomach from sufficiently rottening and

> ripening the food causing a Sp Qi/Yang Xu which again causes blood Xu

> and Dampness due to difficulty in transforming and transporting. The

> deficiency of Qi and Blood would cause stagnation and heat in the long

> run and I guess - in combinations with a St Yin Xu - it could show as

> symptoms like nightsweats?!

>

> When you take (heavy) doses of herbs or you would actually overload

> the St and Sp causing a stagnation of Lu Qi (ie due to overflooding by

> Dampness from the Sp) making you vounerable to external invasions

> since the Wei Qi can't be distributed properly since Lu function is

> impaired.

>

> Could very well be wrong, but this would be my 2 cents worth:

>

> If it is the right diagnosis then following advices on diet would

> probably be beneficial:

>

> NO raw foods! Long term boiled, baked, broiled foods that are rich in

> root vegetables are easy on the St. Herbs for cooking should be

> aromatic (moves Qi and Blood) and not used in large doses as to cover

> the foods natural sweet taste whcich will support the Sp. Apples

> grated and cooked would be good for moistening the St. without

> Dampening the Sp. Avoidance of all greasy, spicy and dairy foods as

> well as - very importantly - wheat products (and oats). Wheat products

> tend to kill the Sp by drowning it in Dampness........ Add almonds and

> barlye (tea or porridge) to your daily diet since these will support

> St and Sp as well as drain Dampness getting the Blood production up to

> speed. Add a bit of sour and salty to your diet too since this will

> loosen the Liv so it is helped in keeping the Qi flow the and as well

> support the Kid (to treat the Sp treat the Kid and to treat the Kid

> treat the Sp) It could be Japanese plums (Umeboshi) which are

> wonderful to eat and provides both the sour and salty tastes.

>

> And then get some acupuncture treatments to treat your deficiencies

> more subtly - at least to begin with.

>

> This was my humble opinion - ready to learn if wrong!

>

> Best regards,

>

> Thomas Sorensen

> L.Ac.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Mr. Rosenberg!

 

Best regards,

Thomas

 

wrote:

 

> Thomas,

> Great job, you took (some of) the words right out of my mouth!

>

> Yes, a stomach yin vacuity heat pattern needs to be considered

> alongside a sp qi vacuity pattern. They often appear together. The

> tongue here is the key.

>

> I agree that paying attention to diet, and using mild supplementing

> medicinals in tandem will be a good way to start.

>

> The main instructor you mention is in denial. The diagnosis is

> incorrect, you should not be getting these symptoms. If there is a

> reaction, the herbs do not match the pattern. Otherwise, no symptoms.

>

> Beautiful analysis, Thomas.

>

>

> On Apr 15, 2005, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Boegedal Soerensen wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hello NatDoc48,

> >

> >> My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and

> >> several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack does

> >> not go to the tip.

> >

> > It is probably a Yin Xu you are suffering from, however my best guess

> > is that it's a St Yin Xu which, correct me if I am wrong, could be

> > aggrevated by even the smallest amount of strong tasting substances -

> > herbs included. It can't be an entirely deficient condition due to the

> > fact that your toungue actually has peeling -it's gotta have a coating

> > to peel and hence not all deficiency.

> >

> >> I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly

> >> wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency.

> >

> > And also indicating that the Spleen Qi Xu is of the Yang type not

> > transforming and transporting properly causing Dampness and probably

> > (Sp) Blood Xu

> >

> >> The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China,

> >> insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the herbs

> >> should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to

> >> do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this

> >> prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis,

> >> but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs,

> >> after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the

> >> herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold).

> >

> > Well the herbs apparently DO affect you in that way and hence

> > something is wrong with either diagnosis and/or treatment.... I do

> > understand your frustration.... especially concidering 67th chapter of

> > the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse reactions to

> > treatment - no healing crises.... just bad diagnosis and/or treatment.

> > Not meaning to be attacky or anything just reminding myself that we

> > all make mistakes and should be willing to learn from them in order to

> > maximize our human potentials...

> >

> >> I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency,

> >> but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the

> >> deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me

> >> with respect to healing.

> >

> > Overly trying to " boost " your Spleen Xu through herbs might just have

> > the opposite effect and it would probably be more proper to go about

> > treating your condition a bit slower through diet and accupuncture.

> > What are your def. heat symptoms by the way? Nightsweats only?

> >

> >> My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night),

> >

> > Most likely dampness or Yang Xu (ie Spleen Yang Xu)

> >

> >> night sweats near my period,

> >

> > Blood Xu aggrevated into Yin Xu?

> >

> >> thirst.

> >

> > Desire for cold drinks?

> > Desire for Hot drinks?

> > No desire to drink even though thirsty?

> >

> >> My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the

> >> right.

> >

> > Right side corresponds to Qi - taking the pulse positions into

> > concideration... So Qi Xu, probably due to the Spleen Yang Xu.

> >

> >> Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and

> >> thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly rapid

> >> (80 beats/min).

> >

> > I guess this actually points more towards Blood (Blood running hot due

> > to stagnation?!) and Qi Xu than actual Yin Xu?!

> >

> > Even though it would be nice to hear about your digestion (bloating,

> > pains, nausea or vomiting after eating, sour regurgitation, feces,

> > etc) and your periods (scanty, pain, clots, etc.) I might dare an

> > attempt on a diagnosis that might go something like this:

> >

> > St Yin Xu inhibiting the Stomach from sufficiently rottening and

> > ripening the food causing a Sp Qi/Yang Xu which again causes blood Xu

> > and Dampness due to difficulty in transforming and transporting. The

> > deficiency of Qi and Blood would cause stagnation and heat in the long

> > run and I guess - in combinations with a St Yin Xu - it could show as

> > symptoms like nightsweats?!

> >

> > When you take (heavy) doses of herbs or you would actually overload

> > the St and Sp causing a stagnation of Lu Qi (ie due to overflooding by

> > Dampness from the Sp) making you vounerable to external invasions

> > since the Wei Qi can't be distributed properly since Lu function is

> > impaired.

> >

> > Could very well be wrong, but this would be my 2 cents worth:

> >

> > If it is the right diagnosis then following advices on diet would

> > probably be beneficial:

> >

> > NO raw foods! Long term boiled, baked, broiled foods that are rich in

> > root vegetables are easy on the St. Herbs for cooking should be

> > aromatic (moves Qi and Blood) and not used in large doses as to cover

> > the foods natural sweet taste whcich will support the Sp. Apples

> > grated and cooked would be good for moistening the St. without

> > Dampening the Sp. Avoidance of all greasy, spicy and dairy foods as

> > well as - very importantly - wheat products (and oats). Wheat products

> > tend to kill the Sp by drowning it in Dampness........ Add almonds and

> > barlye (tea or porridge) to your daily diet since these will support

> > St and Sp as well as drain Dampness getting the Blood production up to

> > speed. Add a bit of sour and salty to your diet too since this will

> > loosen the Liv so it is helped in keeping the Qi flow the and as well

> > support the Kid (to treat the Sp treat the Kid and to treat the Kid

> > treat the Sp) It could be Japanese plums (Umeboshi) which are

> > wonderful to eat and provides both the sour and salty tastes.

> >

> > And then get some acupuncture treatments to treat your deficiencies

> > more subtly - at least to begin with.

> >

> > This was my humble opinion - ready to learn if wrong!

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Thomas Sorensen

> > L.Ac.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

>

>

> ------

> *

[Guest guest]

Thanks to both Thomas and Z'ev for your input. It sounds right to me.

I think a better approach. I will take it easy and pay attention to

the diet additions (wheat and dairy already out).

What do you think about American ginseng? Good, not or neutral opinion?

 

Thanks again. I appreciate this group. I am learning a lot--have a

long way to go, I see.

Natdoc48

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Thomas,

> Great job, you took (some of) the words right out of my mouth!

>

> Yes, a stomach yin vacuity heat pattern needs to be considered

> alongside a sp qi vacuity pattern. They often appear together. The

> tongue here is the key.

>

> I agree that paying attention to diet, and using mild supplementing

> medicinals in tandem will be a good way to start.

>

> The main instructor you mention is in denial. The diagnosis is

> incorrect, you should not be getting these symptoms. If there is a

> reaction, the herbs do not match the pattern. Otherwise, no symptoms.

>

> Beautiful analysis, Thomas.

>

>

> On Apr 15, 2005, at 10:08 AM, Thomas Boegedal Soerensen wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hello NatDoc48,

> >

> >> My tongue was red, peeling, with a crack in the middle jiao and

> >> several small horizontal cracks coming off the center. The crack

does

> >> not go to the tip.

 

 

> >

> > It is probably a Yin Xu you are suffering from, however my best guess

> > is that it's a St Yin Xu which, correct me if I am wrong, could be

> > aggrevated by even the smallest amount of strong tasting substances -

> > herbs included. It can't be an entirely deficient condition due to the

> > fact that your toungue actually has peeling -it's gotta have a coating

> > to peel and hence not all deficiency.

> >

> >> I also have teethmarks at the edge of my tongue (sides) and a fairly

> >> wide tongue, indicating the spleen qi deficiency.

> >

> > And also indicating that the Spleen Qi Xu is of the Yang type not

> > transforming and transporting properly causing Dampness and probably

> > (Sp) Blood Xu

> >

> >> The primary herbalist, one of our instructors, who is from China,

> >> insists that I have severe yin deficiency and does not think the

herbs

> >> should effect me in that way, or that the yin herbs have anything to

> >> do with " catching a cold " ---however, I wasn't getting sick like this

> >> prior to taking yin building herbs. I understand a healing crisis,

> >> but it got to the point that when I went back to taking the herbs,

> >> after resolving the wind-heat, I had an IMMEDIATE reaction to the

> >> herbs (severe HA within 6 hours, and again wind-cold).

> >

> > Well the herbs apparently DO affect you in that way and hence

> > something is wrong with either diagnosis and/or treatment.... I do

> > understand your frustration.... especially concidering 67th chapter of

> > the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse reactions to

> > treatment - no healing crises.... just bad diagnosis and/or treatment.

> > Not meaning to be attacky or anything just reminding myself that we

> > all make mistakes and should be willing to learn from them in order to

> > maximize our human potentials...

> >

> >> I do understand the concept of boosting up the spleen qi deficiency,

> >> but I don't seem to be able to do it without aggravating the

> >> deficiency heat symptoms. My instructor, I think, has given up on me

> >> with respect to healing.

> >

> > Overly trying to " boost " your Spleen Xu through herbs might just have

> > the opposite effect and it would probably be more proper to go about

> > treating your condition a bit slower through diet and accupuncture.

> > What are your def. heat symptoms by the way? Nightsweats only?

> >

> >> My primary symptoms are: fatigue (sleeping 10-12 hours a night),

> >

> > Most likely dampness or Yang Xu (ie Spleen Yang Xu)

> >

> >> night sweats near my period,

> >

> > Blood Xu aggrevated into Yin Xu?

> >

> >> thirst.

> >

> > Desire for cold drinks?

> > Desire for Hot drinks?

> > No desire to drink even though thirsty?

> >

> >> My pulse is very weak, thin, deep and almost inperceptable on the

> >> right.

> >

> > Right side corresponds to Qi - taking the pulse positions into

> > concideration... So Qi Xu, probably due to the Spleen Yang Xu.

> >

> >> Slightly stronger on the left, but still, very weak and

> >> thready. Maybe a little slippery, but mostly thready. Slightly

rapid

> >> (80 beats/min).

> >

> > I guess this actually points more towards Blood (Blood running hot due

> > to stagnation?!) and Qi Xu than actual Yin Xu?!

> >

> > Even though it would be nice to hear about your digestion (bloating,

> > pains, nausea or vomiting after eating, sour regurgitation, feces,

> > etc) and your periods (scanty, pain, clots, etc.) I might dare an

> > attempt on a diagnosis that might go something like this:

> >

> > St Yin Xu inhibiting the Stomach from sufficiently rottening and

> > ripening the food causing a Sp Qi/Yang Xu which again causes blood Xu

> > and Dampness due to difficulty in transforming and transporting. The

> > deficiency of Qi and Blood would cause stagnation and heat in the long

> > run and I guess - in combinations with a St Yin Xu - it could show as

> > symptoms like nightsweats?!

> >

> > When you take (heavy) doses of herbs or you would actually overload

> > the St and Sp causing a stagnation of Lu Qi (ie due to overflooding by

> > Dampness from the Sp) making you vounerable to external invasions

> > since the Wei Qi can't be distributed properly since Lu function is

> > impaired.

> >

> > Could very well be wrong, but this would be my 2 cents worth:

> >

> > If it is the right diagnosis then following advices on diet would

> > probably be beneficial:

> >

> > NO raw foods! Long term boiled, baked, broiled foods that are rich in

> > root vegetables are easy on the St. Herbs for cooking should be

> > aromatic (moves Qi and Blood) and not used in large doses as to cover

> > the foods natural sweet taste whcich will support the Sp. Apples

> > grated and cooked would be good for moistening the St. without

> > Dampening the Sp. Avoidance of all greasy, spicy and dairy foods as

> > well as - very importantly - wheat products (and oats). Wheat products

> > tend to kill the Sp by drowning it in Dampness........ Add almonds and

> > barlye (tea or porridge) to your daily diet since these will support

> > St and Sp as well as drain Dampness getting the Blood production up to

> > speed. Add a bit of sour and salty to your diet too since this will

> > loosen the Liv so it is helped in keeping the Qi flow the and as well

> > support the Kid (to treat the Sp treat the Kid and to treat the Kid

> > treat the Sp) It could be Japanese plums (Umeboshi) which are

> > wonderful to eat and provides both the sour and salty tastes.

> >

> > And then get some acupuncture treatments to treat your deficiencies

> > more subtly - at least to begin with.

> >

> > This was my humble opinion - ready to learn if wrong!

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Thomas Sorensen

> > L.Ac.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There is no healing crisis but isn't there transit through

the six stages.

 

As the condition resolves other symptoms may appear. New

symptoms that appear if the are a deeper stage show a

worsening of the condition and probably a wrong diagnosis

and treatment. Those symptoms of a upper stage would be

indicative of a improvement (formula and diagnose correct)

as well as the consideration of new formula depending upon

the movement of the pathogen into the new resolving stage.

 

Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

 

 

Thomas Boegedal Soerensen ...

snipped>> ... concidering 67th chapter of

the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse

reactions to

treatment - no healing crises..

[Guest guest]

Mr. Kasper,

 

I won't argue that However, the diagnosis seemed to be wrong

concidering the signs and symptoms presented here on this forum and if

the herbalist had concidered the movement through the stages then one

would assume that he had told his student (he was a teacher at this

case's college/uni) and not given up on her?! Just guessing, since

there's a lot things unknown to us concerning this case. It's not

impossible to diagnose long distance, but it's darn difficult.

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas Soerensen

L.Ac. (Denmark)

 

Ed Kasper LAc wrote:

 

> There is no healing crisis but isn't there transit through

> the six stages.

>

> As the condition resolves other symptoms may appear. New

> symptoms that appear if the are a deeper stage show a

> worsening of the condition and probably a wrong diagnosis

> and treatment. Those symptoms of a upper stage would be

> indicative of a improvement (formula and diagnose correct)

> as well as the consideration of new formula depending upon

> the movement of the pathogen into the new resolving stage.

>

> Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

>

>

> Thomas Boegedal Soerensen ...

> snipped>> ... concidering 67th chapter of

> the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse

> reactions to

> treatment - no healing crises..

>

 

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

>

>

> ------

> *

[Guest guest]

Absolutely correct. A wrong diagnosis and treatment in the Shang Han

Lun is called a transmuted pattern, a complication and worsening of the

original disorder. In my opinion, this has great significance in

modern practice, when there are so many powerful medical treatments can

confound a disease's symptoms and signs.

 

 

On Apr 16, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Ed Kasper LAc wrote:

 

>

> There is no healing crisis but isn't there transit through

> the six stages.

>

> As the condition resolves other symptoms may appear. New

> symptoms that appear if the are a deeper stage show a

> worsening of the condition and probably a wrong diagnosis

> and treatment. Those symptoms of a upper stage would be

> indicative of a improvement (formula and diagnose correct)

> as well as the consideration of new formula depending upon

> the movement of the pathogen into the new resolving stage.

>

> Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

[Guest guest]

Mr. Kasper,

 

I won't argue that there is progression through stages However, in

this case, the diagnosis seemed to be wrong concidering the signs and

symptoms presented here on this forum and if the herbalist had

concidered the movement through the stages then one would assume that

he had told his student (he was a teacher at this case's college/uni)

and not given up on her?! Just guessing, since there's a lot things

unknown to us concerning this case. It's not impossible to diagnose

long distance, but it's darn difficult.

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas Soerensen

L.Ac. (Denmark)

 

Chinese Medicine , " Ed Kasper LAc "

<eddy@h...> wrote:

> There is no healing crisis but isn't there transit through

> the six stages.

>

> As the condition resolves other symptoms may appear. New

> symptoms that appear if the are a deeper stage show a

> worsening of the condition and probably a wrong diagnosis

> and treatment. Those symptoms of a upper stage would be

> indicative of a improvement (formula and diagnose correct)

> as well as the consideration of new formula depending upon

> the movement of the pathogen into the new resolving stage.

>

> Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

>

>

> Thomas Boegedal Soerensen ...

> snipped>> ... concidering 67th chapter of

> the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse

> reactions to

> treatment - no healing crises..

[Guest guest]

Sorry. I meant to take your statement [healing crisis] out

of context, as a seperate dish.

As I thought your diagnosis was awsome and correct.

 

Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA

 

 

 

Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:05:31 -0000

" Thomas Boegedal Soerensen "

<thomasboegedal

Re: Herbal Formulas for Kidney Yin deficency

reaction

 

 

Mr. Kasper,

 

I won't argue that there is progression through stages

However, in

this case, the diagnosis seemed to be wrong concidering the

signs and

symptoms presented here on this forum and if the herbalist

had

concidered the movement through the stages then one would

assume that

he had told his student (he was a teacher at this case's

college/uni)

and not given up on her?! Just guessing, since there's a lot

things

unknown to us concerning this case. It's not impossible to

diagnose

long distance, but it's darn difficult.

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas Soerensen

L.Ac. (Denmark)

 

Chinese Medicine , " Ed

Kasper LAc "

<eddy@h...> wrote:

> There is no healing crisis but isn't there transit through

> the six stages.

>

> As the condition resolves other symptoms may appear. New

> symptoms that appear if the are a deeper stage show a

> worsening of the condition and probably a wrong diagnosis

> and treatment. Those symptoms of a upper stage would be

> indicative of a improvement (formula and diagnose correct)

> as well as the consideration of new formula depending upon

> the movement of the pathogen into the new resolving stage.

>

> Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

>

>

> Thomas Boegedal Soerensen ...

> snipped>> ... concidering 67th chapter of

> the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse

> reactions to

> treatment - no healing crises..

[Guest guest]

Mr. Kasper,

 

No problem.

 

And thank you

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas Soerensen

L.Ac. (Denmark)

 

Ed Kasper LAc wrote:

 

> Sorry. I meant to take your statement [healing crisis] out

> of context, as a seperate dish.

> As I thought your diagnosis was awsome and correct.

>

> Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA

>

>

>

> Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:05:31 -0000

> " Thomas Boegedal Soerensen "

> <thomasboegedal

> Re: Herbal Formulas for Kidney Yin deficency

> reaction

>

>

> Mr. Kasper,

>

> I won't argue that there is progression through stages

> However, in

> this case, the diagnosis seemed to be wrong concidering the

> signs and

> symptoms presented here on this forum and if the herbalist

> had

> concidered the movement through the stages then one would

> assume that

> he had told his student (he was a teacher at this case's

> college/uni)

> and not given up on her?! Just guessing, since there's a lot

> things

> unknown to us concerning this case. It's not impossible to

> diagnose

> long distance, but it's darn difficult.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Thomas Soerensen

> L.Ac. (Denmark)

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Ed

> Kasper LAc "

> <eddy@h...> wrote:

> > There is no healing crisis but isn't there transit through

> > the six stages.

> >

> > As the condition resolves other symptoms may appear. New

> > symptoms that appear if the are a deeper stage show a

> > worsening of the condition and probably a wrong diagnosis

> > and treatment. Those symptoms of a upper stage would be

> > indicative of a improvement (formula and diagnose correct)

> > as well as the consideration of new formula depending upon

> > the movement of the pathogen into the new resolving stage.

> >

> > Ed Kasper LAc. Santa Cruz, CA.

> >

> >

> > Thomas Boegedal Soerensen ...

> > snipped>> ... concidering 67th chapter of

> > the Ling Shu stating that there should not be adverse

> > reactions to

> > treatment - no healing crises..

>

>

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

>

>

> ------

> *