Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Hello group, A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? Is there any classification of 5 E to other points than the transport points? Also I wanted to share an interesting observation in clinic yesterday: After needling Sp 6 SanYinJiao bilaterally in an arthritis patient both spleen and kidney channels surfaced. They sprung out from the needle in SanYinJiao and both channels were visible, raising 1-2 mm from the skin, for about 5 cm up the leg. Both channels looked like two throbbing bloodvessels but were definitely not so - don't know what to make of it exactly since there was no change in pulse. Another interesting note (maybe only interestiong to myself, so bear with me, please) on using 5 element and element points; I just recently started using them and one of the first patients I diagnosed and treated this way was an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man referred from his MD - lots of pressure at work for a couple of months. The only symptom I could find was an extremely wiry Liver pulse - no toungue signs, no pathological colour on face/under eyes, no other signs or symptoms I could find. No treatment came to mind except from reducing Liver using reduction of son point Liv 2. I needled right side (Yin) only since purely Yang condition - result: immediate tension release - the guy falls asleep after 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... He wakes up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse never feeling better.... It left me with a ton of questions about my TCM training.... pursuing 5 E.... Hoping to learn much more about 5 E, but there are - to my best knowledge - no training available in Denmark. So I would be happy to know of sources (except of course Su Wen/Ling Shu which I already turn to a lot)... anything really. Thank you. Thomas Soerensen L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Hi Thomas, Do you have a photo of the phenomenon that you described? Thanks in advance. Jean Joaquim Brazil - Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:09 AM 5 E treatment and point usage Hello group, A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Hi Thomas Thank you for this very interesting presentations: Actually when we see scarce signs in 5 E work, it just means we have not found the many which are very clearly present there. 5 E Rule: When no signs are seen, that in itself is a very large sign. Take this case of the young man: < an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > 5 E placement: tends to Wood great stress tends to Wood qi depleted 2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV * Provisional finding: a GB illness < lots of pressure at work for a couple of months > 5 E placement: tends to HT to GB if work cerebrally oriented tends to P to GB if work creatively oriented * Provisional finding: A HT or P overuse depleting GB < an extremely wiry Liver pulse > 5 E placement: clearly tends to Wood if found on L wrist only - Wood with K or HT involved if found on R wrist only - Wood offending ST pattern if found on L wrist Guan only - true Wood pattern if found on L wrist cun only - Fire depleting Wood pattern if found on L wrist chi only - K depleting Wood pattern if found on whole wrist - Wood overpowering Water & Fire pattern if found fixed and unmoving - an emotionally static episode if found flexible and moving - an emotionally fluid episode Provisional findings: depending on pulse pattern this could be a result of some fiercely draining emotional episode; meeting a deadline; fear of losing job if performance is lacking; a challenge which will be a turning point in career; proving one's self in a new job; working at a job one does not believe in. Because he is young and of the age people get into romantic troubles at there might be a lover's tiff somewhere; she does not want him working there; there is another lover in the background; one or the other is not in integrity lover fashion. < result: immediate tension release - the guy falls asleep after 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... > 5 E pattern: a clear GB - HT link HT involved because of sleep factor Provisional finding: emotional HT overload draining GB < He wakes up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse never feeling better.... > 5 E pattern: so clearly a HT draining GB presentation Provisional finding: a HT overload - GB drained situation of an episodic sort Refining provisional findings: a GB illness of episodic nature with HT or P consumed, with possible K involvement if there was a Fear factor involved, draining GB part of Wood, LV not yet involved because of short history. Refining further: pattern tending to HT more than to P, a P based draining will not resolve so quickly. OK. Time to question tidy patterns which fall into place too cozily. What if the Wiry pulse you found was a Spring Wiry Pulse? What if he is a subliminal Wood pattern who would not have presented so clearly unless that this is Spring, has been since Feb 4 or 7 depending on which calendar you follow? Spring began Feb 7, and will run 90 days and end on May 9 or so. To work out the horary mega dynamics: Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. If you saw the man around in the Sustaining Tide, this was the very height of Wood Spring qi running rampant on the planet. If so, one may refine the pattern further: a GB drained by overworked HT with a subliminal tendency to Wood, aggravated by the sudden drain on Wood by Spring Sustained Tide Extreme. In which case one can explain the heavily Wiry pulse as seasonal in nature, superimposed on a subliminal Wood-Fire pattern which is simmering and will surface any way, but further down the road when he is older. In which case the treatment you meted out is perfectly accurate. In which case how does one deal with the subliminal GB - HT tendency? What will prevent this from happening again next Spring? Holmes www.acu-free.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Thomas: > As to your visible channels: when my doctor first treated me for severe sciatica (on both sides), the dorsal side of my foot would swell for a few days, making it difficult to walk. Indeed, the skin rose by at least 5 mm. It then occurred to me that the Xie Qi (evil or pathogenic Qi) was gathering in the foot. I told my doctor, and since then he has been using Tai Chong (LI-3) to drain the pathogens raised by his sciatica treatments, from the lower back down the length of both legs. Regards, Jack > Also I wanted to share an interesting observation in > clinic yesterday: > After needling Sp 6 SanYinJiao bilaterally in an > arthritis patient both > spleen and kidney channels surfaced. They sprung out > from the needle in > SanYinJiao and both channels were visible, raising > 1-2 mm from the skin, > for about 5 cm up the leg. Both channels looked like > two throbbing > bloodvessels but were definitely not so - don't know > what to make of it > exactly since there was no change in pulse. > Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Unfortunately no photos...... Thomas Soerensen L.Ac. Jean wrote: > Hi Thomas, > Do you have a photo of the phenomenon that you described? > Thanks in advance. > Jean Joaquim > Brazil > - > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:09 AM > 5 E treatment and point usage > > > Hello group, > > A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any > experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hello Dr. Keikobad, Thank you for an awesome reply and analysis of this case! I learned a lot! I will definitely remember this next time I see a patient without any apparent signs and symptoms. Unfortunately I won't be seeing this patient again ...... until next spring perhaps Since I am, in no way, well versed in 5 E I have a few questoins I hope you could find the time to answer even though the answer might be obvious.... >5 E placement: >tends to Wood >great stress tends to Wood qi depleted >2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV >* Provisional finding: a GB illness Is " Wood Qi depleted " a common occurence in 5 E? Obviously the mother element is often seen in a state of depletion, but... Short history tends to hurt an elements Yang organ prior to the Yin organ or is it just in this case of Wood? ....or is it a matter of progression on the circadian clock? >To work out the horary mega dynamics: >Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. >March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. >April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. Is there any source available on the horary mega dynamics? I would love to learn more about this specifically and about 5 e generally. Thank you for your time! Best regards Thomas dkakobad wrote: > Hi Thomas > > Thank you for this very interesting presentations: > > Actually when we see scarce signs in 5 E work, it just means we have > not found the many which are very clearly present there. > > 5 E Rule: When no signs are seen, that in itself is a very large sign. > > Take this case of the young man: > > < an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > > > 5 E placement: > tends to Wood > great stress tends to Wood qi depleted > 2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV > > * Provisional finding: a GB illness > > > < lots of pressure at work for a couple of months > > 5 E placement: > tends to HT to GB if work cerebrally oriented > tends to P to GB if work creatively oriented > > * Provisional finding: A HT or P overuse depleting GB > > > < an extremely wiry Liver pulse > > > 5 E placement: > clearly tends to Wood > if found on L wrist only - Wood with K or HT involved > if found on R wrist only - Wood offending ST pattern > if found on L wrist Guan only - true Wood pattern > if found on L wrist cun only - Fire depleting Wood pattern > if found on L wrist chi only - K depleting Wood pattern > if found on whole wrist - Wood overpowering Water & Fire pattern > if found fixed and unmoving - an emotionally static episode > if found flexible and moving - an emotionally fluid episode > > Provisional findings: depending on pulse pattern this could be a result > of some fiercely > draining emotional episode; meeting a deadline; fear of losing job if > performance is lacking; > a challenge which will be a turning point in career; proving one's self > in a new job; working > at a job one does not believe in. > > Because he is young and of the age people get into romantic troubles at > there might > be a lover's tiff somewhere; she does not want him working there; there > is another > lover in the background; one or the other is not in integrity lover > fashion. > > < result: immediate tension release - the guy falls asleep after > 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... > > > 5 E pattern: > a clear GB - HT link > HT involved because of sleep factor > > Provisional finding: emotional HT overload draining GB > > < He wakes up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse > never feeling better.... > > > 5 E pattern: > so clearly a HT draining GB presentation > > Provisional finding: a HT overload - GB drained situation of an > episodic sort > > Refining provisional findings: > a GB illness of episodic nature with HT or P consumed, with possible > K involvement if there was a Fear factor involved, draining GB part > of Wood, LV not yet involved because of short history. > > Refining further: pattern tending to HT more than to P, a P based > draining will not resolve so quickly. > > > > OK. Time to question tidy patterns which fall into place too cozily. > > What if the Wiry pulse you found was a Spring Wiry Pulse? > > What if he is a subliminal Wood pattern who would not have presented > so clearly unless that this is Spring, has been since Feb 4 or 7 > depending on which calendar you follow? > > Spring began Feb 7, and will run 90 days and end on May 9 or so. > > To work out the horary mega dynamics: > Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. > March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. > April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. > > If you saw the man around in the Sustaining Tide, this was the very > height of Wood Spring qi running rampant on the planet. > > If so, one may refine the pattern further: a GB drained by overworked HT > with > a subliminal tendency to Wood, aggravated by the sudden drain on Wood by > Spring Sustained Tide Extreme. > > In which case one can explain the heavily Wiry pulse as seasonal > in nature, superimposed on a subliminal Wood-Fire pattern which is > simmering and will surface any way, but further down the road > when he is older. > > In which case the treatment you meted out is perfectly accurate. > > In which case how does one deal with the subliminal GB - HT > tendency? > > What will prevent this from happening again next Spring? > > Holmes > www.acu-free.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 1. Is " Wood Qi depleted " a common occurrence in 5 E? Obviously the mother element is often seen in a state of depletion, but... > > Fairly common. Here are 5 E patterns with degree of seriousness: Water not nourishing Wood - common - not serious Metal Aggressing Wood - common - very serious Fire backing into Wood - uncommon - not serious Earth counteracting on to Wood - uncommon - serious Wood can either Excess or Vacuous Excess leads to Heat Fire symptoms Vacuous leads to Stagnation and BL lack Migraine is almost always never Wood based Yet Migraine is always seen on Wood To treat Migraine treat something else To treat Migraine on Wood is to aggravate it even if pain is gone 2. Short history tends to hurt an elements Yang organ prior to the Yin organ or is it just in this case of Wood? ....or is it a matter of progression on the circadian clock? > > Not in Wood alone but on all elements. 3. To work out the horary mega dynamics: Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. Is there any source available on the horary mega dynamics? I would love to learn more about this specifically and about 5 e generally. > > There is a great and venerable Master who does this. I am too modest to say who :-) On a general tack: It is our great fortune that all illness is timely, so it can be deduced and treated. It is out dire misfortune that all we are allowed a play in is on this restricted stage. Socrates, Shakespeare, Kabir, Khayyam, Coleridge, Balzac: brilliant souls all, had no more than twice 12 hours in which to do whatever they did. The circadian clock thus allows design, but is grudging and mean, as all it gives is a closed circuit, run all we want, we will arrive back to where we started from. I have worked on the circadian circuit for 40 years and now it stands wary of me, and I somewhat distrusting of it. Whatever, in love and healing, is too predictable, is by and large suspect. In the last, 5 E work requires a poet and an artist. Only these will unlock the final binding. Holmes. Thomas B?gedal S?rensen wrote: > Hello Dr. Keikobad, > > Thank you for an awesome reply and analysis of this case! I learned a lot! > > I will definitely remember this next time I see a patient without any > apparent signs and symptoms. > > Unfortunately I won't be seeing this patient again ...... until next > spring perhaps > > Since I am, in no way, well versed in 5 E I have a few questoins I hope > you could find the time to answer even though the answer might be > obvious.... > > >5 E placement: > >tends to Wood > >great stress tends to Wood qi depleted > >2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV > > >* Provisional finding: a GB illness > > Is " Wood Qi depleted " a common occurence in 5 E? Obviously the mother > element is often seen in a state of depletion, but... > > Short history tends to hurt an elements Yang organ prior to the Yin > organ or is it just in this case of Wood? > ...or is it a matter of progression on the circadian clock? > > >To work out the horary mega dynamics: > >Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. > >March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. > >April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. > > Is there any source available on the horary mega dynamics? I would love > to learn more about this specifically and about 5 e generally. > > Thank you for your time! > > Best regards > > Thomas > > > dkakobad wrote: > > > Hi Thomas > > > > Thank you for this very interesting presentations: > > > > Actually when we see scarce signs in 5 E work, it just means we have > > not found the many which are very clearly present there. > > > > 5 E Rule: When no signs are seen, that in itself is a very large sign. > > > > Take this case of the young man: > > > > < an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > > > > > 5 E placement: > > tends to Wood > > great stress tends to Wood qi depleted > > 2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV > > > > * Provisional finding: a GB illness > > > > > > < lots of pressure at work for a couple of months > > > 5 E placement: > > tends to HT to GB if work cerebrally oriented > > tends to P to GB if work creatively oriented > > > > * Provisional finding: A HT or P overuse depleting GB > > > > > > < an extremely wiry Liver pulse > > > > > 5 E placement: > > clearly tends to Wood > > if found on L wrist only - Wood with K or HT involved > > if found on R wrist only - Wood offending ST pattern > > if found on L wrist Guan only - true Wood pattern > > if found on L wrist cun only - Fire depleting Wood pattern > > if found on L wrist chi only - K depleting Wood pattern > > if found on whole wrist - Wood overpowering Water & Fire pattern > > if found fixed and unmoving - an emotionally static episode > > if found flexible and moving - an emotionally fluid episode > > > > Provisional findings: depending on pulse pattern this could be a result > > of some fiercely > > draining emotional episode; meeting a deadline; fear of losing job if > > performance is lacking; > > a challenge which will be a turning point in career; proving one's self > > in a new job; working > > at a job one does not believe in. > > > > Because he is young and of the age people get into romantic troubles at > > there might > > be a lover's tiff somewhere; she does not want him working there; there > > is another > > lover in the background; one or the other is not in integrity lover > > fashion. > > > > < result: immediate tension release - the guy falls asleep after > > 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... > > > > > 5 E pattern: > > a clear GB - HT link > > HT involved because of sleep factor > > > > Provisional finding: emotional HT overload draining GB > > > > < He wakes up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse > > never feeling better.... > > > > > 5 E pattern: > > so clearly a HT draining GB presentation > > > > Provisional finding: a HT overload - GB drained situation of an > > episodic sort > > > > Refining provisional findings: > > a GB illness of episodic nature with HT or P consumed, with possible > > K involvement if there was a Fear factor involved, draining GB part > > of Wood, LV not yet involved because of short history. > > > > Refining further: pattern tending to HT more than to P, a P based > > draining will not resolve so quickly. > > > > > > > > OK. Time to question tidy patterns which fall into place too cozily. > > > > What if the Wiry pulse you found was a Spring Wiry Pulse? > > > > What if he is a subliminal Wood pattern who would not have presented > > so clearly unless that this is Spring, has been since Feb 4 or 7 > > depending on which calendar you follow? > > > > Spring began Feb 7, and will run 90 days and end on May 9 or so. > > > > To work out the horary mega dynamics: > > Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. > > March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. > > April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. > > > > If you saw the man around in the Sustaining Tide, this was the very > > height of Wood Spring qi running rampant on the planet. > > > > If so, one may refine the pattern further: a GB drained by overworked HT > > with > > a subliminal tendency to Wood, aggravated by the sudden drain on Wood by > > Spring Sustained Tide Extreme. > > > > In which case one can explain the heavily Wiry pulse as seasonal > > in nature, superimposed on a subliminal Wood-Fire pattern which is > > simmering and will surface any way, but further down the road > > when he is older. > > > > In which case the treatment you meted out is perfectly accurate. > > > > In which case how does one deal with the subliminal GB - HT > > tendency? > > > > What will prevent this from happening again next Spring? > > > > Holmes > > www.acu-free.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Dr. Keikobad, Thank you for taking the time to explain and help me out! It means a lot! Please forgive me one more question on 5 E - Can Kidney be in excess in 5 E or would a Water excess pattern pertain more to the Bladder? Once again thank you for your time! Best regards, Thomas (Trying to discover the poet inside :-) ) dkakobad wrote: > 1. > Is " Wood Qi depleted " a common occurrence in 5 E? Obviously the mother > element is often seen in a state of depletion, but... > > > > > > Fairly common. > Here are 5 E patterns with degree of seriousness: > Water not nourishing Wood - common - not serious > Metal Aggressing Wood - common - very serious > Fire backing into Wood - uncommon - not serious > Earth counteracting on to Wood - uncommon - serious > > Wood can either Excess or Vacuous > Excess leads to Heat Fire symptoms > Vacuous leads to Stagnation and BL lack > > Migraine is almost always never Wood based > Yet Migraine is always seen on Wood > To treat Migraine treat something else > To treat Migraine on Wood is to aggravate it even if pain is gone > > 2. > Short history tends to hurt an elements Yang organ prior to the Yin > organ or is it just in this case of Wood? > ...or is it a matter of progression on the circadian clock? > > > > > > Not in Wood alone but on all elements. > > 3. > To work out the horary mega dynamics: > Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. > March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. > April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. > > Is there any source available on the horary mega dynamics? I would love > to learn more about this specifically and about 5 e generally. > > > > > > There is a great and venerable Master who does this. > I am too modest to say who :-) > > On a general tack: > It is our great fortune that all illness is timely, so it can be deduced > and treated. > > It is out dire misfortune that all we are allowed a play in is on this > restricted stage. > > Socrates, Shakespeare, Kabir, Khayyam, Coleridge, Balzac: brilliant > souls all, had no more than twice 12 hours in which to do whatever > they did. > > The circadian clock thus allows design, but is grudging and mean, > as all it gives is a closed circuit, run all we want, we will > arrive back to where we started from. > > I have worked on the circadian circuit for 40 years and now it > stands wary of me, and I somewhat distrusting of it. > > Whatever, in love and healing, is too predictable, is by and large > suspect. > > In the last, 5 E work requires a poet and an artist. > > Only these will unlock the final binding. > > Holmes. > > > > > Thomas B?gedal S?rensen wrote: > > > Hello Dr. Keikobad, > > > > Thank you for an awesome reply and analysis of this case! I learned > a lot! > > > > I will definitely remember this next time I see a patient without any > > apparent signs and symptoms. > > > > Unfortunately I won't be seeing this patient again ...... until next > > spring perhaps > > > > Since I am, in no way, well versed in 5 E I have a few questoins I hope > > you could find the time to answer even though the answer might be > > obvious.... > > > > >5 E placement: > > >tends to Wood > > >great stress tends to Wood qi depleted > > >2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV > > > > >* Provisional finding: a GB illness > > > > Is " Wood Qi depleted " a common occurence in 5 E? Obviously the mother > > element is often seen in a state of depletion, but... > > > > Short history tends to hurt an elements Yang organ prior to the Yin > > organ or is it just in this case of Wood? > > ...or is it a matter of progression on the circadian clock? > > > > >To work out the horary mega dynamics: > > >Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. > > >March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. > > >April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. > > > > Is there any source available on the horary mega dynamics? I would love > > to learn more about this specifically and about 5 e generally. > > > > Thank you for your time! > > > > Best regards > > > > Thomas > > > > > > dkakobad wrote: > > > > > Hi Thomas > > > > > > Thank you for this very interesting presentations: > > > > > > Actually when we see scarce signs in 5 E work, it just means we have > > > not found the many which are very clearly present there. > > > > > > 5 E Rule: When no signs are seen, that in itself is a very large sign. > > > > > > Take this case of the young man: > > > > > > < an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > > > > > > > 5 E placement: > > > tends to Wood > > > great stress tends to Wood qi depleted > > > 2 month episode tends to make this a short history, so more GB than LV > > > > > > * Provisional finding: a GB illness > > > > > > > > > < lots of pressure at work for a couple of months > > > > 5 E placement: > > > tends to HT to GB if work cerebrally oriented > > > tends to P to GB if work creatively oriented > > > > > > * Provisional finding: A HT or P overuse depleting GB > > > > > > > > > < an extremely wiry Liver pulse > > > > > > > 5 E placement: > > > clearly tends to Wood > > > if found on L wrist only - Wood with K or HT involved > > > if found on R wrist only - Wood offending ST pattern > > > if found on L wrist Guan only - true Wood pattern > > > if found on L wrist cun only - Fire depleting Wood pattern > > > if found on L wrist chi only - K depleting Wood pattern > > > if found on whole wrist - Wood overpowering Water & Fire pattern > > > if found fixed and unmoving - an emotionally static episode > > > if found flexible and moving - an emotionally fluid episode > > > > > > Provisional findings: depending on pulse pattern this could be a > result > > > of some fiercely > > > draining emotional episode; meeting a deadline; fear of losing job if > > > performance is lacking; > > > a challenge which will be a turning point in career; proving one's > self > > > in a new job; working > > > at a job one does not believe in. > > > > > > Because he is young and of the age people get into romantic > troubles at > > > there might > > > be a lover's tiff somewhere; she does not want him working there; > there > > > is another > > > lover in the background; one or the other is not in integrity lover > > > fashion. > > > > > > < result: immediate tension release - the guy falls asleep after > > > 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... > > > > > > > 5 E pattern: > > > a clear GB - HT link > > > HT involved because of sleep factor > > > > > > Provisional finding: emotional HT overload draining GB > > > > > > < He wakes up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse > > > never feeling better.... > > > > > > > 5 E pattern: > > > so clearly a HT draining GB presentation > > > > > > Provisional finding: a HT overload - GB drained situation of an > > > episodic sort > > > > > > Refining provisional findings: > > > a GB illness of episodic nature with HT or P consumed, with possible > > > K involvement if there was a Fear factor involved, draining GB part > > > of Wood, LV not yet involved because of short history. > > > > > > Refining further: pattern tending to HT more than to P, a P based > > > draining will not resolve so quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. Time to question tidy patterns which fall into place too cozily. > > > > > > What if the Wiry pulse you found was a Spring Wiry Pulse? > > > > > > What if he is a subliminal Wood pattern who would not have presented > > > so clearly unless that this is Spring, has been since Feb 4 or 7 > > > depending on which calendar you follow? > > > > > > Spring began Feb 7, and will run 90 days and end on May 9 or so. > > > > > > To work out the horary mega dynamics: > > > Feb 7 to March 9 - the Rising Tide of Spring. > > > March 9 to April 9 - the Sustaining Tide of Spring. > > > April 9 to May 9 - the Waning Tide of Spring. > > > > > > If you saw the man around in the Sustaining Tide, this was the very > > > height of Wood Spring qi running rampant on the planet. > > > > > > If so, one may refine the pattern further: a GB drained by > overworked HT > > > with > > > a subliminal tendency to Wood, aggravated by the sudden drain on > Wood by > > > Spring Sustained Tide Extreme. > > > > > > In which case one can explain the heavily Wiry pulse as seasonal > > > in nature, superimposed on a subliminal Wood-Fire pattern which is > > > simmering and will surface any way, but further down the road > > > when he is older. > > > > > > In which case the treatment you meted out is perfectly accurate. > > > > > > In which case how does one deal with the subliminal GB - HT > > > tendency? > > > > > > What will prevent this from happening again next Spring? > > > > > > Holmes > > > www.acu-free.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 I use entry exit points when there is an excess almost flooding pulse at the end of one meridian, e.g. II and and low, almost undetectable pulse on the next meridian, III. I tonify SI 19 and then tonify BL 1 (ouch), small needle and quickly. These entry exit blocks, e.g. LR 14, LU 1, can produce amazing results. Also you can clear a channel using them SI 1 to SI 19 , insert SI 1 in direction of flow toward SI 19 then insert 19 again tonifying direction. Tonify SI 1 and remove, tonify 19 and remove. There is an excellent book written by Lonny Jarrett on everything you ever wanted to know about 5E acupuncture. He was trained at the same Worsley school that I went to and then he adds other pieces that he has picked up in this long career in . He also does training however it is in Massachusetts, not too convenient from Denmark. Consider ordering his book. It has a lot of good information and easy to read and understand. You can study it for a long time though. The book: The Clinical Practice of , Lonny S. Jarrett, ISBN: 0-9669916-1-3, Spirit Path Press, P.O. Box 1093, Stockbridge, MA 01262-1093, www.spiritpathpress.com (check website to find out more about Lonny) Good luck, Anne Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > Hello group, > > A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any > experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? > > Is there any classification of 5 E to other points than the transport > points? > > Also I wanted to share an interesting observation in clinic yesterday: > After needling Sp 6 SanYinJiao bilaterally in an arthritis patient both > spleen and kidney channels surfaced. They sprung out from the needle in > SanYinJiao and both channels were visible, raising 1-2 mm from the skin, > for about 5 cm up the leg. Both channels looked like two throbbing > bloodvessels but were definitely not so - don't know what to make of it > exactly since there was no change in pulse. > > Another interesting note (maybe only interestiong to myself, so bear > with me, please) on using 5 element and element points; I just recently > started using them and one of the first patients I diagnosed and treated > this way was an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > referred from his MD - lots of pressure at work for a couple of months. > The only symptom I could find was an extremely wiry Liver pulse - no > toungue signs, no pathological colour on face/under eyes, no other signs > or symptoms I could find. No treatment came to mind except from reducing > Liver using reduction of son point Liv 2. I needled right side (Yin) > only since purely Yang condition - result: immediate tension release - > the guy falls asleep after 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... He wakes > up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse never feeling > better.... It left me with a ton of questions about my TCM training.... > pursuing 5 E.... > > Hoping to learn much more about 5 E, but there are - to my best > knowledge - no training available in Denmark. So I would be happy to > know of sources (except of course Su Wen/Ling Shu which I already turn > to a lot)... anything really. > > Thank you. > > Thomas Soerensen > L.Ac. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Hi Anne, Thanks a lot for the info I will purchase the book right away! Thomas Anne Crowley wrote: > I use entry exit points when there is an excess almost flooding pulse at > the end of one meridian, e.g. II and and low, almost undetectable pulse > on the next meridian, III. I tonify SI 19 and then tonify BL 1 (ouch), > small needle and quickly. These entry exit blocks, e.g. LR 14, LU 1, > can produce amazing results. > > Also you can clear a channel using them SI 1 to SI 19 , insert SI 1 in > direction of flow toward SI 19 then insert 19 again tonifying > direction. Tonify SI 1 and remove, tonify 19 and remove. > > There is an excellent book written by Lonny Jarrett on everything you > ever wanted to know about 5E acupuncture. He was trained at the same > Worsley school that I went to and then he adds other pieces that he has > picked up in this long career in . He also does > training however it is in Massachusetts, not too convenient from Denmark. > > Consider ordering his book. It has a lot of good information and easy > to read and understand. You can study it for a long time though. > > The book: The Clinical Practice of , Lonny S. Jarrett, > ISBN: 0-9669916-1-3, Spirit Path Press, P.O. Box 1093, Stockbridge, MA > 01262-1093, www.spiritpathpress.com (check website to find out more > about Lonny) > > Good luck, > > Anne > > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > > Hello group, > > > > A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any > > experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? > > > > Is there any classification of 5 E to other points than the transport > > points? > > > > Also I wanted to share an interesting observation in clinic yesterday: > > After needling Sp 6 SanYinJiao bilaterally in an arthritis patient both > > spleen and kidney channels surfaced. They sprung out from the needle in > > SanYinJiao and both channels were visible, raising 1-2 mm from the skin, > > for about 5 cm up the leg. Both channels looked like two throbbing > > bloodvessels but were definitely not so - don't know what to make of it > > exactly since there was no change in pulse. > > > > Another interesting note (maybe only interestiong to myself, so bear > > with me, please) on using 5 element and element points; I just recently > > started using them and one of the first patients I diagnosed and treated > > this way was an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > > referred from his MD - lots of pressure at work for a couple of months. > > The only symptom I could find was an extremely wiry Liver pulse - no > > toungue signs, no pathological colour on face/under eyes, no other signs > > or symptoms I could find. No treatment came to mind except from reducing > > Liver using reduction of son point Liv 2. I needled right side (Yin) > > only since purely Yang condition - result: immediate tension release - > > the guy falls asleep after 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... He wakes > > up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse never feeling > > better.... It left me with a ton of questions about my TCM training.... > > pursuing 5 E.... > > > > Hoping to learn much more about 5 E, but there are - to my best > > knowledge - no training available in Denmark. So I would be happy to > > know of sources (except of course Su Wen/Ling Shu which I already turn > > to a lot)... anything really. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Thomas Soerensen > > L.Ac. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Hi Anne, I am very interested in this, but wasn't clear on what you were saying. Maybe its too much to explain, but I didn't understand this: e.g. II and and low, almost undetectable pulse > on the next meridian, III. What is II and III? I think I would understand if I knew that. Thanks! Laura Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <blazing.valley@v...> wrote: > I use entry exit points when there is an excess almost flooding pulse at > the end of one meridian, e.g. II and and low, almost undetectable pulse > on the next meridian, III. I tonify SI 19 and then tonify BL 1 (ouch), > small needle and quickly. These entry exit blocks, e.g. LR 14, LU 1, > can produce amazing results. > > Also you can clear a channel using them SI 1 to SI 19 , insert SI 1 in > direction of flow toward SI 19 then insert 19 again tonifying > direction. Tonify SI 1 and remove, tonify 19 and remove. > > There is an excellent book written by Lonny Jarrett on everything you > ever wanted to know about 5E acupuncture. He was trained at the same > Worsley school that I went to and then he adds other pieces that he has > picked up in this long career in . He also does > training however it is in Massachusetts, not too convenient from Denmark. > > Consider ordering his book. It has a lot of good information and easy > to read and understand. You can study it for a long time though. > > The book: The Clinical Practice of , Lonny S. Jarrett, > ISBN: 0-9669916-1-3, Spirit Path Press, P.O. Box 1093, Stockbridge, MA > 01262-1093, www.spiritpathpress.com (check website to find out more > about Lonny) > > Good luck, > > Anne > > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > > Hello group, > > > > A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any > > experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? > > > > Is there any classification of 5 E to other points than the transport > > points? > > > > Also I wanted to share an interesting observation in clinic yesterday: > > After needling Sp 6 SanYinJiao bilaterally in an arthritis patient both > > spleen and kidney channels surfaced. They sprung out from the needle in > > SanYinJiao and both channels were visible, raising 1-2 mm from the skin, > > for about 5 cm up the leg. Both channels looked like two throbbing > > bloodvessels but were definitely not so - don't know what to make of it > > exactly since there was no change in pulse. > > > > Another interesting note (maybe only interestiong to myself, so bear > > with me, please) on using 5 element and element points; I just recently > > started using them and one of the first patients I diagnosed and treated > > this way was an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > > referred from his MD - lots of pressure at work for a couple of months. > > The only symptom I could find was an extremely wiry Liver pulse - no > > toungue signs, no pathological colour on face/under eyes, no other signs > > or symptoms I could find. No treatment came to mind except from reducing > > Liver using reduction of son point Liv 2. I needled right side (Yin) > > only since purely Yang condition - result: immediate tension release - > > the guy falls asleep after 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... He wakes > > up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse never feeling > > better.... It left me with a ton of questions about my TCM training.... > > pursuing 5 E.... > > > > Hoping to learn much more about 5 E, but there are - to my best > > knowledge - no training available in Denmark. So I would be happy to > > know of sources (except of course Su Wen/Ling Shu which I already turn > > to a lot)... anything really. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Thomas Soerensen > > L.Ac. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Chinese Medicine , Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <thomasboegedal@m...> wrote: > Hello group, > > A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any > experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? > > Is there any classification of 5 E to other points than the transport > points? > > Also try Lonny Jarrett's web site with interesting explication of E/E points under " spirit of the points. " Very good. Ez to Google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2005 Report Share Posted April 11, 2005 II is small intestine and III is Bladder. Sorry I thought the numbering was the same between systems, but am having a reminder that they are not. Does TCM start with Lung as I? In the 5E system I learned I is HT, II is SI, III is BL, IV is KI, V is PC, VI is TE, VII is GB, VIII is LR, IX is LU, X is LI and XI is ST, XII is SP. Hope this helps understanding my previous post. Anne heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Anne, I am very interested in this, but wasn't clear on what you > were saying. Maybe its too much to explain, but I didn't understand this: > > e.g. II and and low, almost undetectable pulse > > on the next meridian, III. > > What is II and III? I think I would understand if I knew that. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley > <blazing.valley@v...> wrote: > > I use entry exit points when there is an excess almost flooding > pulse at > > the end of one meridian, e.g. II and and low, almost undetectable pulse > > on the next meridian, III. I tonify SI 19 and then tonify BL 1 > (ouch), > > small needle and quickly. These entry exit blocks, e.g. LR 14, LU 1, > > can produce amazing results. > > > > Also you can clear a channel using them SI 1 to SI 19 , insert SI 1 in > > direction of flow toward SI 19 then insert 19 again tonifying > > direction. Tonify SI 1 and remove, tonify 19 and remove. > > > > There is an excellent book written by Lonny Jarrett on everything you > > ever wanted to know about 5E acupuncture. He was trained at the same > > Worsley school that I went to and then he adds other pieces that he has > > picked up in this long career in . He also does > > training however it is in Massachusetts, not too convenient from > Denmark. > > > > Consider ordering his book. It has a lot of good information and easy > > to read and understand. You can study it for a long time though. > > > > The book: The Clinical Practice of , Lonny S. Jarrett, > > ISBN: 0-9669916-1-3, Spirit Path Press, P.O. Box 1093, Stockbridge, MA > > 01262-1093, www.spiritpathpress.com (check website to find out more > > about Lonny) > > > > Good luck, > > > > Anne > > > > Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen wrote: > > > > > Hello group, > > > > > > A question about entry/exit points for balancing meridians; any > > > experience using these? How about entry/xit points in 5 E? > > > > > > Is there any classification of 5 E to other points than the transport > > > points? > > > > > > Also I wanted to share an interesting observation in clinic yesterday: > > > After needling Sp 6 SanYinJiao bilaterally in an arthritis patient > both > > > spleen and kidney channels surfaced. They sprung out from the > needle in > > > SanYinJiao and both channels were visible, raising 1-2 mm from the > skin, > > > for about 5 cm up the leg. Both channels looked like two throbbing > > > bloodvessels but were definitely not so - don't know what to make > of it > > > exactly since there was no change in pulse. > > > > > > Another interesting note (maybe only interestiong to myself, so bear > > > with me, please) on using 5 element and element points; I just > recently > > > started using them and one of the first patients I diagnosed and > treated > > > this way was an extremely stressed out young (otherwise healthy) man > > > referred from his MD - lots of pressure at work for a couple of > months. > > > The only symptom I could find was an extremely wiry Liver pulse - no > > > toungue signs, no pathological colour on face/under eyes, no other > signs > > > or symptoms I could find. No treatment came to mind except from > reducing > > > Liver using reduction of son point Liv 2. I needled right side (Yin) > > > only since purely Yang condition - result: immediate tension release - > > > the guy falls asleep after 30 seconds - deep sleep, no REM..... He > wakes > > > up after about 15 minutes with a perfectly balanced pulse never > feeling > > > better.... It left me with a ton of questions about my TCM > training.... > > > pursuing 5 E.... > > > > > > Hoping to learn much more about 5 E, but there are - to my best > > > knowledge - no training available in Denmark. So I would be happy to > > > know of sources (except of course Su Wen/Ling Shu which I already turn > > > to a lot)... anything really. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > Thomas Soerensen > > > L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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