Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Mike, I assume that my own private college's interest in accreditation by having a sister school in China, was so strong that its interest in what it taught was less strong. Accreditation lead to the private college being eligible for government funded student support. You get paid here to go to school by the government. This happened in my second year of study, in 1993. Probably at the time, TCM offered a well structured solution, and who else to accredit TCM another than a college in China? And this was in light of those in the '70's in Australia who did little funny courses in small private colleges to get 'qualified' before setting up their shingles as practitioners. Some of them welcomed the TCM structure complete with published books, whilst others said, learn the book for the exam, and now I will teach you want you need to know to be a practitioner. Also the major professional association is TCM based, and aligned to certain schools so that their graduates are rubber stamped into the association. My school was so aligned. Eventually, when a degree is standard and attainable from government universities this professional association will lose its strangle hold. So in other words there are too many vested interests in the current structures for them to be dismantled. I suspect the Australian scene is but a microcosm of the USA in many ways. Those actually interested in teaching other forms of acupuncture, are more interested in getting on with the powers that be than rocking the boat. This way they can make their own living as well as run their post graduate (non-university certified) courses for those that have done the 4 years and still can't go out and practice due to lack of training. Last count 95% of graduates stoped practice within 5 years, which says there is a lot wrong in the game. Best wishes, mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] Thursday, 31 March 2005 11:41 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis Sharon, Why don't we just change the way acupuncture is taught? This brings us back to a previous topic on education and how we might want to look at developing our own diagnostic abilities and a common sense approach (you mention below) within the students. I think that our professional schools may be failing us in this as they focus mainly on rote memorization, not developing your sense of touch, smell and hearing and what these bring to the dance. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > <> >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:22:14 +1000 > >Hi Attilio, >I know that about year 3-5 of practice I became fearful of what I was doing >in clinic, especially what I didn't know which seemed a lot. I hoped at >times people would ring up and cancel their appointments. I eventually >learnt to use my fear to find out more. I would ask 'What are the points >to >treat Fibromyalgia?' The teacher an Englishman practicing in Japan, just >looked at me with a blank face. It seemed I was asking the wrong question. > >Last year WFAS on the Gold Coast, Australia, I was grateful that I no >longer >based my treatment on the 8 Principles and that I no longer sort a string >of >acupoints to treat disease and syndromes. Don't get me wrong, I do use >these at times, I would be a fool if I didn't. I have just moved on from >treating syndromes to treating the energetic system/s of the person. > >I do think I know what you mean about the herbalisation. > >I went back part time to up grade to a 4 yr Bachelor of Health Science >(Acupuncture) degree, and had to complete by rote learning subjects on >herbs >and herbal formulae. Rote learning for me is not a strength and I felt >pretty much not only was it a waste of time and effort, it actually turned >me off herbs.... yet it was a requirement I meet. Here I could see though >how acupoints were put together much the way a herbal formulae was put >together. > >At one stage I started studying with a practitioner in his workshops who >treats no more than four points and does no moxa or herbs. I just couldn't >get his logic, other participants seemed to understand which points and why >according to how he interpreted the pulse, yet it left me still quite >confused. > >Then as I studied some Manaka protocols and Toyohari meridian styles I >found >things that made sense. > >These included: >1. A feedback system so that I had a way of knowing what I was doing and >if >it was working, and if not then to look, feel, listen and smell again. >2. A logical procession of making a root treatment based on one of several >diagnostic systems, through to making symptomatic pain relief treatment. >3. A bunch of practitioners to learn and grow old with. These people are >both local to me and in many countries around the world. >4. A systematic pulse taking process that told me more than speed, depth, >strength. >5. Nothing was used for diagnostic purposes unless it can change during >the >course of the treatment, so not much tongue work is done. >6. Access to the 'rules' ie midday- midnight, 5 element relationships etc. >When you understand principles, it is easier to make a treatment. Then I >have this logical procession of treatment, for me it is starting with the >Yin of the body and then progressing to the Yang meridians, I have a >generic >recipe that I can follow and I can still add me and my unique flavour to >the >mix. This approach is common to different styles of meridian therapy, it >is >a step by step approach. > >I no longer think well this is Kidney yang deficiency, so I could use Kd 3, >or Kid Shu or .... so on and so forth... heck might as well throw them all >in ..... Now I find a diagnostic point, it might be hardness on the >meridian >or tightness on the PSIS or Abdominal mu points, whatever acupoints I treat >must make a change to the selected diagnostic points during the course of >the treatment. I may just follow a Toyohari protocol, or use some of their >amazing symptomatic treatment tools and techniques. > >I think Holmes said something before about don't just release the trigger >point, use a distal point to release it. Well it is that kind of approach. >If the trigger point is the messenger, then use it as a messenger. Treat >another point and see if the messenger changes. > >So is it that you want to change your approach or that you want to change >the way acupuncture is predominately taught? >Best wishes, > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto] > Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:30 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Hi Sharon, > > I'm not happy the way acupuncture has taken on the syndrome >differentiation > style of herbal medicine (herbalised). What happened to looking at the > pattern of Zangfu disharmony in relation to Yin Yang, excess and >deficiency, > along with palpation, looking for nodules, blockages and rebalancing the > Zangfu. I don't like the structure imposed on acupuncture syndrome > differentiation. It fits herbal medicine well but not acupuncture. I >want > something more loose, flexible, balancing, if you know what I mean. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Sharon [] > 31 March 2005 11:53 > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Attilio, > > What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical >and > clinical approach to your patients? > Best wishes, > > > > Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto] > Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Many thanks Robert, that helps. > > Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The > style > I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really >leaves > me > to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others >share > my > thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture >out > there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer >any > insights into this dilemma? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Robert Chu [chusauli] > 31 March 2005 01:36 > Chinese Medicine > RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > > > Hi Attilio, > > Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the >system > mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one >flexibly > uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the >elemental > designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, >if > there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or >the > metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by > " Wood > invading Earth " , etc. > > I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are >derivatives > of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an > offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of >the > points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically > Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of > course, > > all systems are made for practice, not debate. > > 8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical > Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin >Nong > is > not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as >a > diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered >your > question. > > Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD > chusauli > > See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > > Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis > >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100 > > > > > >Hi all, > > > >Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five >element > >and > >eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely > branch? > > > >Kind regards > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > >07786198900 > >attiliodalberto > > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 What is your source for this figure? On Mar 31, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Sharon wrote: > Last count 95% of graduates stoped practice within 5 years, which says > there > is a lot wrong in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Z'ev, it is from a survey conducted by the Australian Acupuncture and Association Pty Ltd.. The survey took place a couple of years ago here in Australia. I also heard a similar figure quoted for IVAS graduates in 2002. Best wishes, [zrosenbe] Friday, 1 April 2005 7:50 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Teaching acupuncture What is your source for this figure? On Mar 31, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Sharon wrote: > Last count 95% of graduates stoped practice within 5 years, which says > there > is a lot wrong in the game. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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