Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

March 30, 2005

Hi all,

Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five element and

eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely branch?

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

March 31, 2005

Hi Attilio,

Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the elemental

designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or the

metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

invading Earth " , etc.

I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are derivatives

of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of the

points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of course,

all systems are made for practice, not debate.

8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong is

not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

question.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

> Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

>

>Hi all,

>

>Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five element

>and

>eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely branch?

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

March 31, 2005

Hi Robert and Attilio,

I appreciate your excellent description and thought to add the following.

Also, historically there have been schools of treatment tradition that

stressed the treatment of the disease and schools of treatment tradition

that aimed to treat the person and not the disease. It is about one's focus

on solution, that is treat the person according to a series of 'rules and

relationships' or treat the problem, the symptoms put together and called a

disease.

Probably too simplistic a description, however, sometimes the simple helps

us see.

Best wishes,

Robert Chu [chusauli]

Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:36 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Hi Attilio,

Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the elemental

designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or the

metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

invading Earth " , etc.

I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are derivatives

of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of the

points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of

course,

all systems are made for practice, not debate.

8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong

is

not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

question.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

> Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

>

>Hi all,

>

>Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five element

>and

>eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely

branch?

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

March 31, 2005

Many thanks Robert, that helps.

Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The style

I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really leaves me

to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others share my

thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture out

there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer any

insights into this dilemma?

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Robert Chu [chusauli]

31 March 2005 01:36

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Hi Attilio,

Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the elemental

designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or the

metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

invading Earth " , etc.

I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are derivatives

of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of the

points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of course,

all systems are made for practice, not debate.

8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong is

not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

question.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

> Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

>

>Hi all,

>

>Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five element

>and

>eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely branch?

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

March 31, 2005

Attilio,

What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical and

clinical approach to your patients?

Best wishes,

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Many thanks Robert, that helps.

Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The

style

I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really leaves

me

to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others share

my

thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture out

there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer any

insights into this dilemma?

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Robert Chu [chusauli]

31 March 2005 01:36

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Hi Attilio,

Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the elemental

designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or the

metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

invading Earth " , etc.

I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are derivatives

of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of the

points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of

course,

all systems are made for practice, not debate.

8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong

is

not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

question.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

> Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

>

>Hi all,

>

>Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five element

>and

>eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely

branch?

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

March 31, 2005

Attilio:

The style that Robert describes is important to use as

it can render modern acupuncture more effective. How

many actually practice this or similar forms?

As much as some may regard them as non-scientific,

going back to the Zhou Yi and the Dao De Jing, as well

as Daoist roots may prove helpful, instead of trying

to create a model of acupuncture to compete with

western medicine.

Why not dispense with the WM model altogether and

create a different model? Preventative medicine in

place of reactive. The old model of Chinese medicine

was one where the doctor worked to prevent illness

before it showed up.

Yang Li has one book on disease prediction that has

not been translated. Suppose we could predict disease

patterns for patients and work to prevent them,

instead of waiting for patients to show up, after

they've had enough of WM?

Or simple education. How many people in the world

suffer today from illnesses that TCM can help with,

yet folks remain unaware that TCM has these

capabilities?

While not fully articulated, there are methods of

facial, eye and hand analysis that can aid prediction.

Rather than westernize and modernize TCM to create a

poor cousin of WM, why not exploit TCM's potential to

the fullest?

Not sure what you mean by " herbalize, " but acupuncture

in conjunction with moxa, herbs and Tui Na, with Five

elements and Zi Wu Liu Zhu, may prove more effective

than modern acupuncture as taught in the PRC.

My two yuan worth.

Regards, Jack

--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto

wrote:

> Many thanks Robert, that helps.

>

> Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern

> acupuncture is. The style

> I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been

> 'herbalised' really leaves me

> to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm

> sure many others share my

> thoughts. I really believe that there is a better

> form of acupuncture out

> there that is based on more traditional teachings.

> Can anyone offer any

> insights into this dilemma?

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> 07786198900

> attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> Robert Chu [chusauli]

> 31 March 2005 01:36

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle

> Diagnosis

>

> Hi Attilio,

>

> Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical

> acupuncture. It is the system

> mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing.

> Here, one flexibly

> uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He,

> Yuan and the elemental

> designations of the 5 shu points to treat all

> diseases. For example, if

> there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the

> metal channel or the

> metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one

> diagnoses by " Wood

> invading Earth " , etc.

>

> I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy

> (Japanese) are derivatives

> of the classical style, but have their cultural

> flavor. Worsley is an

> offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation

> (i.e. the " spirit " of the

> points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms "

> and not Classically

> Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese

> influence). Of course,

>

> all systems are made for practice, not debate.

>

> 8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals.

> The classical

> Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and

> Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong is

> not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney

> Qi deficiency as a

> diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I

> hope I answered your

> question.

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

> chusauli

>

> See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

>

> > " Attilio D'Alberto "

> <attiliodalberto

> >

> Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> > Five Element and Eight Principle

> Diagnosis

> >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

> >

> >Hi all,

> >

> >Can somebody please tell me what it means to be

> trained in 'five element

> >and

> >eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM

> or the Worsely branch?

> >

> >Kind regards

> >

> >Attilio D'Alberto

> >Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> >07786198900

> >attiliodalberto

> > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/>

> www.attiliodalberto.com

> >

> >[Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> >To translate this message, copy and paste it into

> this web link page,

> >http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

>

> and adjust

> >accordingly.

> >

> >Messages are the property of the author. Any

> duplication outside the group

> >requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> >If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM

> with other academics,

> >

>

> >

March 31, 2005

I have found that there seems to be a growing feeling amongst graduates

after a few years that they feel frustration as to a lack of efficacy. I

know that I felt the same way and this propelled me to study Japanese ideas

and concepts. Most programs tend to focus on TCM or some derivation. I

think we are seeing some limitations with this approach and would postulate

that this is what is driving the revival of interest in other styles and a

more classical approach to practice. TCM has done a lot of good things but

also has focused on only a few ideas at the disservice to others. I have

noticed a lot more seminars on Japanese acupuncture, Korean constitutional

and even classes on the classics. More schools are opening up their doors

to this and we should say " thank you " .

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> <>

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:52:54 +1000

>

>Attilio,

>

>What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical and

>clinical approach to your patients?

>Best wishes,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

> Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>

> Many thanks Robert, that helps.

>

> Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The

>style

> I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really

>leaves

>me

> to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others

>share

>my

> thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture

>out

> there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer any

> insights into this dilemma?

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> 07786198900

> attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> Robert Chu [chusauli]

> 31 March 2005 01:36

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>

> Hi Attilio,

>

> Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

> mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

> uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the

>elemental

> designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

> there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or

>the

> metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

> invading Earth " , etc.

>

> I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are

>derivatives

> of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

> offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of

>the

> points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

> Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of

>course,

>

> all systems are made for practice, not debate.

>

> 8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

> Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong

>is

> not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

> diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

> question.

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

> chusauli

>

> See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

>

> > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> > Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

> >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

> >

> >Hi all,

> >

> >Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five

>element

> >and

> >eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely

>branch?

> >

> >Kind regards

> >

> >Attilio D'Alberto

> >Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> >07786198900

> >attiliodalberto

> > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

> >

March 31, 2005

One thing that I am wondering about is the frequency of acumoxa treatment

within any style of acumoxa?

Marco

March 31, 2005

Hi Sharon,

I'm not happy the way acupuncture has taken on the syndrome differentiation

style of herbal medicine (herbalised). What happened to looking at the

pattern of Zangfu disharmony in relation to Yin Yang, excess and deficiency,

along with palpation, looking for nodules, blockages and rebalancing the

Zangfu. I don't like the structure imposed on acupuncture syndrome

differentiation. It fits herbal medicine well but not acupuncture. I want

something more loose, flexible, balancing, if you know what I mean.

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Sharon []

31 March 2005 11:53

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Attilio,

What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical and

clinical approach to your patients?

Best wishes,

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Many thanks Robert, that helps.

Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The

style

I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really leaves

me

to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others share

my

thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture out

there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer any

insights into this dilemma?

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Robert Chu [chusauli]

31 March 2005 01:36

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Hi Attilio,

Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the elemental

designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or the

metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

invading Earth " , etc.

I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are derivatives

of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of the

points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of

course,

all systems are made for practice, not debate.

8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong

is

not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

question.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

> Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

>

>Hi all,

>

>Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five element

>and

>eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely

branch?

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

March 31, 2005

Hi Attilio,

I know that about year 3-5 of practice I became fearful of what I was doing

in clinic, especially what I didn't know which seemed a lot. I hoped at

times people would ring up and cancel their appointments. I eventually

learnt to use my fear to find out more. I would ask 'What are the points to

treat Fibromyalgia?' The teacher an Englishman practicing in Japan, just

looked at me with a blank face. It seemed I was asking the wrong question.

Last year WFAS on the Gold Coast, Australia, I was grateful that I no longer

based my treatment on the 8 Principles and that I no longer sort a string of

acupoints to treat disease and syndromes. Don't get me wrong, I do use

these at times, I would be a fool if I didn't. I have just moved on from

treating syndromes to treating the energetic system/s of the person.

I do think I know what you mean about the herbalisation.

I went back part time to up grade to a 4 yr Bachelor of Health Science

(Acupuncture) degree, and had to complete by rote learning subjects on herbs

and herbal formulae. Rote learning for me is not a strength and I felt

pretty much not only was it a waste of time and effort, it actually turned

me off herbs.... yet it was a requirement I meet. Here I could see though

how acupoints were put together much the way a herbal formulae was put

together.

At one stage I started studying with a practitioner in his workshops who

treats no more than four points and does no moxa or herbs. I just couldn't

get his logic, other participants seemed to understand which points and why

according to how he interpreted the pulse, yet it left me still quite

confused.

Then as I studied some Manaka protocols and Toyohari meridian styles I found

things that made sense.

These included:

1. A feedback system so that I had a way of knowing what I was doing and if

it was working, and if not then to look, feel, listen and smell again.

2. A logical procession of making a root treatment based on one of several

diagnostic systems, through to making symptomatic pain relief treatment.

3. A bunch of practitioners to learn and grow old with. These people are

both local to me and in many countries around the world.

4. A systematic pulse taking process that told me more than speed, depth,

strength.

5. Nothing was used for diagnostic purposes unless it can change during the

course of the treatment, so not much tongue work is done.

6. Access to the 'rules' ie midday- midnight, 5 element relationships etc.

When you understand principles, it is easier to make a treatment. Then I

have this logical procession of treatment, for me it is starting with the

Yin of the body and then progressing to the Yang meridians, I have a generic

recipe that I can follow and I can still add me and my unique flavour to the

mix. This approach is common to different styles of meridian therapy, it is

a step by step approach.

I no longer think well this is Kidney yang deficiency, so I could use Kd 3,

or Kid Shu or .... so on and so forth... heck might as well throw them all

in ..... Now I find a diagnostic point, it might be hardness on the meridian

or tightness on the PSIS or Abdominal mu points, whatever acupoints I treat

must make a change to the selected diagnostic points during the course of

the treatment. I may just follow a Toyohari protocol, or use some of their

amazing symptomatic treatment tools and techniques.

I think Holmes said something before about don't just release the trigger

point, use a distal point to release it. Well it is that kind of approach.

If the trigger point is the messenger, then use it as a messenger. Treat

another point and see if the messenger changes.

So is it that you want to change your approach or that you want to change

the way acupuncture is predominately taught?

Best wishes,

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:30 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Hi Sharon,

I'm not happy the way acupuncture has taken on the syndrome

differentiation

style of herbal medicine (herbalised). What happened to looking at the

pattern of Zangfu disharmony in relation to Yin Yang, excess and

deficiency,

along with palpation, looking for nodules, blockages and rebalancing the

Zangfu. I don't like the structure imposed on acupuncture syndrome

differentiation. It fits herbal medicine well but not acupuncture. I want

something more loose, flexible, balancing, if you know what I mean.

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Sharon []

31 March 2005 11:53

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Attilio,

What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical and

clinical approach to your patients?

Best wishes,

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Many thanks Robert, that helps.

Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The

style

I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really

leaves

me

to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others

share

my

thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture

out

there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer any

insights into this dilemma?

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Robert Chu [chusauli]

31 March 2005 01:36

Chinese Medicine

RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

Hi Attilio,

Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the system

mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one flexibly

uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the

elemental

designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example, if

there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or

the

metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by " Wood

invading Earth " , etc.

I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are

derivatives

of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of

the

points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of

course,

all systems are made for practice, not debate.

8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin Nong

is

not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as a

diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered your

question.

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

> Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

>

>Hi all,

>

>Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five

element

>and

>eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely

branch?

>

>Kind regards

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

>07786198900

>attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

March 31, 2005

Sharon,

Why don't we just change the way acupuncture is taught?

This brings us back to a previous topic on education and how we might want

to look at developing our own diagnostic abilities and a common sense

approach (you mention below) within the students. I think that our

professional schools may be failing us in this as they focus mainly on rote

memorization, not developing your sense of touch, smell and hearing and what

these bring to the dance.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> <>

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:22:14 +1000

>

>Hi Attilio,

>I know that about year 3-5 of practice I became fearful of what I was doing

>in clinic, especially what I didn't know which seemed a lot. I hoped at

>times people would ring up and cancel their appointments. I eventually

>learnt to use my fear to find out more. I would ask 'What are the points

>to

>treat Fibromyalgia?' The teacher an Englishman practicing in Japan, just

>looked at me with a blank face. It seemed I was asking the wrong question.

>

>Last year WFAS on the Gold Coast, Australia, I was grateful that I no

>longer

>based my treatment on the 8 Principles and that I no longer sort a string

>of

>acupoints to treat disease and syndromes. Don't get me wrong, I do use

>these at times, I would be a fool if I didn't. I have just moved on from

>treating syndromes to treating the energetic system/s of the person.

>

>I do think I know what you mean about the herbalisation.

>

>I went back part time to up grade to a 4 yr Bachelor of Health Science

>(Acupuncture) degree, and had to complete by rote learning subjects on

>herbs

>and herbal formulae. Rote learning for me is not a strength and I felt

>pretty much not only was it a waste of time and effort, it actually turned

>me off herbs.... yet it was a requirement I meet. Here I could see though

>how acupoints were put together much the way a herbal formulae was put

>together.

>

>At one stage I started studying with a practitioner in his workshops who

>treats no more than four points and does no moxa or herbs. I just couldn't

>get his logic, other participants seemed to understand which points and why

>according to how he interpreted the pulse, yet it left me still quite

>confused.

>

>Then as I studied some Manaka protocols and Toyohari meridian styles I

>found

>things that made sense.

>

>These included:

>1. A feedback system so that I had a way of knowing what I was doing and

>if

>it was working, and if not then to look, feel, listen and smell again.

>2. A logical procession of making a root treatment based on one of several

>diagnostic systems, through to making symptomatic pain relief treatment.

>3. A bunch of practitioners to learn and grow old with. These people are

>both local to me and in many countries around the world.

>4. A systematic pulse taking process that told me more than speed, depth,

>strength.

>5. Nothing was used for diagnostic purposes unless it can change during

>the

>course of the treatment, so not much tongue work is done.

>6. Access to the 'rules' ie midday- midnight, 5 element relationships etc.

>When you understand principles, it is easier to make a treatment. Then I

>have this logical procession of treatment, for me it is starting with the

>Yin of the body and then progressing to the Yang meridians, I have a

>generic

>recipe that I can follow and I can still add me and my unique flavour to

>the

>mix. This approach is common to different styles of meridian therapy, it

>is

>a step by step approach.

>

>I no longer think well this is Kidney yang deficiency, so I could use Kd 3,

>or Kid Shu or .... so on and so forth... heck might as well throw them all

>in ..... Now I find a diagnostic point, it might be hardness on the

>meridian

>or tightness on the PSIS or Abdominal mu points, whatever acupoints I treat

>must make a change to the selected diagnostic points during the course of

>the treatment. I may just follow a Toyohari protocol, or use some of their

>amazing symptomatic treatment tools and techniques.

>

>I think Holmes said something before about don't just release the trigger

>point, use a distal point to release it. Well it is that kind of approach.

>If the trigger point is the messenger, then use it as a messenger. Treat

>another point and see if the messenger changes.

>

>So is it that you want to change your approach or that you want to change

>the way acupuncture is predominately taught?

>Best wishes,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

> Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:30 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>

> Hi Sharon,

>

> I'm not happy the way acupuncture has taken on the syndrome

>differentiation

> style of herbal medicine (herbalised). What happened to looking at the

> pattern of Zangfu disharmony in relation to Yin Yang, excess and

>deficiency,

> along with palpation, looking for nodules, blockages and rebalancing the

> Zangfu. I don't like the structure imposed on acupuncture syndrome

> differentiation. It fits herbal medicine well but not acupuncture. I

>want

> something more loose, flexible, balancing, if you know what I mean.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> 07786198900

> attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> Sharon []

> 31 March 2005 11:53

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>

> Attilio,

>

> What is it that you find unsatisfactory with your current theoretical

>and

> clinical approach to your patients?

> Best wishes,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

> Thursday, 31 March 2005 7:35 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>

> Many thanks Robert, that helps.

>

> Often, I really wonder as to how effective modern acupuncture is. The

> style

> I've been taught, modern PRC TCM that has been 'herbalised' really

>leaves

> me

> to wonder what the hell I'm doing to patients. I'm sure many others

>share

> my

> thoughts. I really believe that there is a better form of acupuncture

>out

> there that is based on more traditional teachings. Can anyone offer

>any

> insights into this dilemma?

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> 07786198900

> attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> Robert Chu [chusauli]

> 31 March 2005 01:36

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

>

> Hi Attilio,

>

> Real 5 elements acupuncture is classical acupuncture. It is the

>system

> mentioned in the Su Wen, Ling Shu, and the Nan Jing. Here, one

>flexibly

> uses the mother/son, Ben (horary), Luo, Xi, Xia He, Yuan and the

>elemental

> designations of the 5 shu points to treat all diseases. For example,

>if

> there is Asthma, one could us the water point of the metal channel or

>the

> metal point of the water channel to treat. Also one diagnoses by

> " Wood

> invading Earth " , etc.

>

> I would say Sa Am (Korean) and Meridian Therapy (Japanese) are

>derivatives

> of the classical style, but have their cultural flavor. Worsley is an

> offshoot, but has modern Worsley interpretation (i.e. the " spirit " of

>the

> points and the Causative Factor are " Worsley-isms " and not Classically

> Chinese. Also Akabane technique is clearly Japanese influence). Of

> course,

>

> all systems are made for practice, not debate.

>

> 8 Principles is modern TCM and derives from herbals. The classical

> Acupuncture texts (Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Cheng Xin

>Nong

> is

> not one of the the classics. ), do not have Kidney Qi deficiency as

>a

> diagnosis - this is clearly herbal influence. So I hope I answered

>your

> question.

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

> chusauli

>

> See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

>

> > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> > Five Element and Eight Principle Diagnosis

> >Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:56:32 +0100

> >

> >Hi all,

> >

> >Can somebody please tell me what it means to be trained in 'five

>element

> >and

> >eight principle diagnosis' TCM? Is this real TCM/CM or the Worsely

> branch?

> >

> >Kind regards

> >

> >Attilio D'Alberto

> >Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> >07786198900

> >attiliodalberto

> > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

> >

March 31, 2005

Hi Sharon,

Many thanks for your reply. What you stated in the Manaka protocols and

Toyohari are the things I'm missing. We were never taught when to and when

not to puncture particular points according to the times of the day, the

months, the seasons, etc. We were taught some brutal manipulation techniques

that cannot be used in the West. Alot of the points are repeated again and

again. It's like your trusting the needle to know what to do when you

puncture the point and that's NOT acupuncture. We've given it up somewhere

along the way. I want to know more about the Zangfu cycles, time and day

cycles and how acupuncture should be adjusted to fit that as well as

constitutional changes in each person. Also, the whole pulse diagnosis is

also lacking. There are three levels with the whole Zangfu on the wrists yet

how come is comes down to one categorisation, like wiry? It's seems bizarre.

I really think I don't know the pulse and what's going on in the body and

I'm sure its related to this lack of understanding with the mode of

acupuncture I've been taught. Wiry fits herbal medicine but it doesn't fit

the fine methods of acupuncture.

Comments?

Kind regards

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

Sharon []

31 March 2005 14:22