Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hi everyone, I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and upper back. She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now presenting quite differently................. Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP see her attached e-mail below; thanks for any suggestions, Ann I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God for small mercies... All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe I'm just a nutcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hi Ann, What do you think she is having the allergic reaction to, that underpins the hives? Do you think it is physical or metaphysical in origin? If you think it is a physical response to a metaphysical problem, what do you see? - Stress can cause hives If it is physical, do you think it is air borne, ingested or dermal contact in origin? Here are a few substances known to cause hives These Substances can Cause Hives Food Additives Tartrazine often causes Hives. Organic Acids Benzoic Acid (and its various derivatives) causes Hives in some persons. Neurotransmitters Excessive release of Histamine is implicated in the events that lead to Hives. Histamine is released in response to the Antigens that cause Allergies. This Antigen-induced Histamine leads to the Microangiopermeability that is an underlying event in the manifestation of Hives. Pharmaceutical Drugs Aspirin is a frequent cause of Hives. Codeine is a frequent cause of Hives. Penicillins often cause Hives. Sulfonamides often cause Hives. Warfarin (infrequently) causes Hives. These Foods Sometimes Cause Hives Some people have Food Allergies to these Foods that manifests as Hives: Fruit: Strawberry Fish Shellfish Nuts: Peanuts Reference (In-Tele-Health © 2002 (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)) Which meridians do you think it might be working through? What do you think is the root cause of her ill health? Is she showing signs of Kid yang or adrenal exhaustion? What is her hormonal balance like? Have you looked to nutritional supplements such Omega 3 oils? As far as herbs go - Herbs Aloe vera (gel applied topically) alleviates Hives. Chamomile (oil applied topically) alleviates Hives. Chickweed (ointment applied topically) alleviates Hives. Papaya (ointment applied topically) alleviates Hives. Red Clover (used as a bath) alleviates Hives. Reference (In-Tele-Health © 2002 (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)). best wishes, Ann [dr.annzee] Sunday, 27 March 2005 10:45 AM Chinese Medicine Cc: Hives-HELP!!! Hi everyone, I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and upper back. She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now presenting quite differently................. Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP see her attached e-mail below; thanks for any suggestions, Ann I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God for small mercies... All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe I'm just a nutcase. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hi Sharon, thanks for the info. I've actually e-mailed my patient with some of your questions and asked her to answer them. I really am at my wits end, you've added more length to the rope, thanks kindly for your words and time, Ann Sharon [] Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:26 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Hives-HELP!!! Hi Ann, What do you think she is having the allergic reaction to, that underpins the hives? Do you think it is physical or metaphysical in origin? If you think it is a physical response to a metaphysical problem, what do you see? - Stress can cause hives If it is physical, do you think it is air borne, ingested or dermal contact in origin? Here are a few substances known to cause hives These Substances can Cause Hives Food Additives Tartrazine often causes Hives. Organic Acids Benzoic Acid (and its various derivatives) causes Hives in some persons. Neurotransmitters Excessive release of Histamine is implicated in the events that lead to Hives. Histamine is released in response to the Antigens that cause Allergies. This Antigen-induced Histamine leads to the Microangiopermeability that is an underlying event in the manifestation of Hives. Pharmaceutical Drugs Aspirin is a frequent cause of Hives. Codeine is a frequent cause of Hives. Penicillins often cause Hives. Sulfonamides often cause Hives. Warfarin (infrequently) causes Hives. These Foods Sometimes Cause Hives Some people have Food Allergies to these Foods that manifests as Hives: Fruit: Strawberry Fish Shellfish Nuts: Peanuts Reference (In-Tele-Health © 2002 (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)) Which meridians do you think it might be working through? What do you think is the root cause of her ill health? Is she showing signs of Kid yang or adrenal exhaustion? What is her hormonal balance like? Have you looked to nutritional supplements such Omega 3 oils? As far as herbs go - Herbs Aloe vera (gel applied topically) alleviates Hives. Chamomile (oil applied topically) alleviates Hives. Chickweed (ointment applied topically) alleviates Hives. Papaya (ointment applied topically) alleviates Hives. Red Clover (used as a bath) alleviates Hives. Reference (In-Tele-Health © 2002 (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)). best wishes, Ann [dr.annzee] Sunday, 27 March 2005 10:45 AM Chinese Medicine Cc: Hives-HELP!!! Hi everyone, I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and upper back. She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now presenting quite differently................. Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP see her attached e-mail below; thanks for any suggestions, Ann I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God for small mercies... All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe I'm just a nutcase. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hives are usually quite easy to treat with CM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 that's wonderful to have that re-affirmed, do you have any suggestions? [alonmarcus] Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:12 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Hives-HELP!!! Hives are usually quite easy to treat with CM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 that's wonderful to have that re-affirmed, do you have any suggestions? >>>>>Always follow each individual case presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hi Ann, Keep us posted please! Ann [dr.annzee] Monday, 28 March 2005 4:02 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Hives-HELP!!! Hi Sharon, thanks for the info. I've actually e-mailed my patient with some of your questions and asked her to answer them. I really am at my wits end, you've added more length to the rope, thanks kindly for your words and time, Ann Sharon [] Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:26 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Hives-HELP!!! Hi Ann, What do you think she is having the allergic reaction to, that underpins the hives? Do you think it is physical or metaphysical in origin? If you think it is a physical response to a metaphysical problem, what do you see? - Stress can cause hives If it is physical, do you think it is air borne, ingested or dermal contact in origin? Here are a few substances known to cause hives These Substances can Cause Hives Food Additives Tartrazine often causes Hives. Organic Acids Benzoic Acid (and its various derivatives) causes Hives in some persons. Neurotransmitters Excessive release of Histamine is implicated in the events that lead to Hives. Histamine is released in response to the Antigens that cause Allergies. This Antigen-induced Histamine leads to the Microangiopermeability that is an underlying event in the manifestation of Hives. Pharmaceutical Drugs Aspirin is a frequent cause of Hives. Codeine is a frequent cause of Hives. Penicillins often cause Hives. Sulfonamides often cause Hives. Warfarin (infrequently) causes Hives. These Foods Sometimes Cause Hives Some people have Food Allergies to these Foods that manifests as Hives: Fruit: Strawberry Fish Shellfish Nuts: Peanuts Reference (In-Tele-Health © 2002 (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)) Which meridians do you think it might be working through? What do you think is the root cause of her ill health? Is she showing signs of Kid yang or adrenal exhaustion? What is her hormonal balance like? Have you looked to nutritional supplements such Omega 3 oils? As far as herbs go - Herbs Aloe vera (gel applied topically) alleviates Hives. Chamomile (oil applied topically) alleviates Hives. Chickweed (ointment applied topically) alleviates Hives. Papaya (ointment applied topically) alleviates Hives. Red Clover (used as a bath) alleviates Hives. Reference (In-Tele-Health © 2002 (from Hyperhealth CD-ROM)). best wishes, Ann [dr.annzee] Sunday, 27 March 2005 10:45 AM Chinese Medicine Cc: Hives-HELP!!! Hi everyone, I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and upper back. She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now presenting quite differently................. Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP see her attached e-mail below; thanks for any suggestions, Ann I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God for small mercies... All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe I'm just a nutcase. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Hi Ann, Some general thoughts on your hives patient: With hives or any type of allergy reaction,you sometimes really need to find and reduce the offending allergen(s). Treatment should be able to reduce the allergic reaction (and you have done this), but if the allergen is very strong, you may be fighting a losing battle. One of the most difficult to trace allergens are those that come into contact with the skin, such as laundry detergents, or body soap. If you have not already done so, work with you patient to trace back to the first of these problems and see if she started suing a different soap, or moved into a new house, etc. In short, look for any changes in her life that preceded the onset of the hives. This could also include changes in emotional stresses. I recently treated a woman with similar skin problems who works cleaning carpets, upholstery, etc. We traced her problems to her work on drapes that used a different chemical. The above suggestions deal with reducing the negative. As for enhancing the positive (treatment) your patient is getting these hives on her lips, under her eyes, on the inside of her arms, and on her back and shoulders (according to her remarks). All of these areas suggest to me Heart/Pericardium involvement and the red tongue and hives themselves are signs of heat. You may want to try acupuncture points that are connected with relieving heat in the upper jiao such as Ren 17, & 22, YinTang and Gv 20. As the skin is closely associated with the Metal/Lung/Large Intestine system, aiding BM elimination is also important in skin disorders. Herbs to reduce heat, moisten the Blood, and lubricate the intestines may help and acupuncture points like LI 11, ST 25 or lung points can also help. This can even be the case with the softer stools you mention this patient has. Some develop softer stools after years of sluggish elimination so check on this. As for the Shen involvement, your patient's letter's tone suggests a well balanced person who is not overly emotional or negative but it is hard to tell much from this. If you sense she has marked Shen disturbance, this can certainly be a factor. I hope this give you some useful ideas. Work with her to do all you can to identify allergens though. If she is being regularly subjected to an allergen her system simply cannot handle, all the treatment in the world will on take the edge off. I admire you desire to help you patient. - Matt Bauer - Ann Chinese Medicine Cc: Saturday, March 26, 2005 4:45 PM Hives-HELP!!! Hi everyone, I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and upper back. She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now presenting quite differently................. Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP see her attached e-mail below; thanks for any suggestions, Ann I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God for small mercies... All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe I'm just a nutcase. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Dr. Sherry Rogers (MD) has written many books for people who, like her, have overcome their allergies. She coined the term " universal reactor " to indicate how toxic she was. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Hives-HELP!!! >Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:31:35 -0800 > >Hi Ann, > >Some general thoughts on your hives patient: With hives or any type of >allergy reaction,you sometimes really need to find and reduce the offending >allergen(s). Treatment should be able to reduce the allergic reaction (and >you have done this), but if the allergen is very strong, you may be >fighting a losing battle. One of the most difficult to trace allergens are >those that come into contact with the skin, such as laundry detergents, or >body soap. If you have not already done so, work with you patient to trace >back to the first of these problems and see if she started suing a >different soap, or moved into a new house, etc. In short, look for any >changes in her life that preceded the onset of the hives. This could also >include changes in emotional stresses. I recently treated a woman with >similar skin problems who works cleaning carpets, upholstery, etc. We >traced her problems to her work on drapes that used a different chemical. > >The above suggestions deal with reducing the negative. As for enhancing the >positive (treatment) your patient is getting these hives on her lips, under >her eyes, on the inside of her arms, and on her back and shoulders >(according to her remarks). All of these areas suggest to me >Heart/Pericardium involvement and the red tongue and hives themselves are >signs of heat. You may want to try acupuncture points that are connected >with relieving heat in the upper jiao such as Ren 17, & 22, YinTang and Gv >20. As the skin is closely associated with the Metal/Lung/Large Intestine >system, aiding BM elimination is also important in skin disorders. Herbs to >reduce heat, moisten the Blood, and lubricate the intestines may help and >acupuncture points like LI 11, ST 25 or lung points can also help. This can >even be the case with the softer stools you mention this patient has. Some >develop softer stools after years of sluggish elimination so check on this. > >As for the Shen involvement, your patient's letter's tone suggests a well >balanced person who is not overly emotional or negative but it is hard to >tell much from this. If you sense she has marked Shen disturbance, this can >certainly be a factor. > >I hope this give you some useful ideas. Work with her to do all you can to >identify allergens though. If she is being regularly subjected to an >allergen her system simply cannot handle, all the treatment in the world >will on take the edge off. I admire you desire to help you patient. - Matt >Bauer > - > Ann > Chinese Medicine > Cc: > Saturday, March 26, 2005 4:45 PM > Hives-HELP!!! > > > > Hi everyone, > > I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 >months > I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 >different > types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've >managed > to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used >to > suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists >and > upper back. > She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. > When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most >good > BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to >nourish > her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao >Chai Hu > Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). > W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now > presenting quite differently................. > Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP > see her attached e-mail below; > > > thanks for any suggestions, Ann > > > I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as > prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the > antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept > ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my >wrist, > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my > massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's > back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right >side > (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > > My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and >keeping > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips >were > a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that >would > be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my >boyfriend > has > benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of > making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank >God > for small mercies... > > All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then >more > each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy >and...well > you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my >sister.. " I've > never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you >look > like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or >maybe > I'm just a nutcase. > > > > >http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust >accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Ann wrote: < She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and upper back. > Possible 5 E designs: Heat under skin, Heat in LU, HT attacking Lu Metal < She has Spleen xu > SP Mother Deficient causing LU Metal Deficiency, making her open for attack by HT < wiry pulse > Weak LU cannot restrain Wood, hence wiry [this is somewhat far fetched] < softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat > LI of LU involved, a HT ST pattern, still leads to HT ______ < small hives - ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow> Heat in skin, either LU yin consumed, or HT offending LU < Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side >. This is very telling. She basically pressured an already Full Heat condition trapped in a closed space as the skin, aggravating it s it spread all over. One is dealing with Endogenous Heat which tracks to skin. Provisional thought: a HT Aggressing LU condition, where origin of Heat is HT, and place of surfacing, LU and then to skin. This track to skin is because of a weak LU as well as a compromised Yangwei. < (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > For symptoms to surface ipsilaterally, there must either be: A serious asymmetry at the level of Dai vessel, or A decided shift in the Yangwei Oceans. Provisional thoughts refined: the basic pattern is still the same, with the added picture of an inherent asymmetry and/or a lean Yangwei Ocean. < My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were a plumped as well. > No surprise here. This is an Excess born of a Deficiency. The last thing to do is to drain the Heat. < I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God for small mercies... > Is everything well with this relationship? Has the hives coincided with the beginning of this relationship, do the attacks run tandem with ups and downs? Relationships sit on the HT, and in time drain it's yin. Soon enough sadness turns into grief, and injures LU. The track from HT to LU is set. All that remains are the hives. < All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe I'm just a nutcase. > Hives under eyes is literally HT backing up into K, a serious turn of events. Firts order of the day, recognize it for it is, an emergent condition which is life threatening. A standby for 911 should be in place, the nearest person hsould do that, the patient, healer, boyfriend. !!! The condition is perilously close to in WM parlance, anaphylaxis, an allergic reaction which can extend to the blood volume and send it crashing, as well as cause dyspnea. !!! Provisional diagnostic patternt in sequence: 1. Incredible sadness of an ongoing nature. 2. HT yin drained. 3. Tendency to HT Heat and Fire. 4. HT in time aggressing on LU Metal. 5. Metal weak and in time melted. 6. Pores closed shut, no perspiration, natural heat loss. 7. Heat collects under skin as hives. 8. Heat migrates not because of Wind but because of Fire. 9. In time, or precedingly, Dai and Yangwei are involved. 10. Because of this there is asymmetry, or the other way around. Next step: A. Confirm HT and LU with triggers. B. Establish release points, this should work on triggers. C. Is there asymmtry? D. Palpate Dai to exclude it. Support with: Tongue picture, there should be: a. midline fissure extending to tip b. LU depressions at tongue c. maybe a conical tongue with pointed anterior 2/3. Ear: ear lobe crese HT & LU: back shu front mu points Andomen: R abd reactive - LU Ren 13 to 14 - shallow, see in slanted light - HT See body temp: if normal - illness not serious, will heal if high - illness is in flux, needs to be addressed, but noit serious, will heal if low, subnomal - illness advanced, reverse at once, treat as emergency Provisional diagnosis: HT offending LU creating Heat under skin Subsidiary elements - a Dai and Yangwei imbalanced Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Ann: Pardon my directness here. But everyone has to relax here. First you, just treat this case one step at a time like you would do any. Get advice and moral support, and then methodically go along. Take the tension off " curing her. " This may have to run its course. Your patient seems like a pretty stressed person, one about her hives and the other about moving at a rapid pace. She needs to settle down and relax about life. I would treat her with this as the main goal. This is more than likely the " root " of the problem. Now acupuncture and your words can help her get there. I am assuming you are treating her with acupuncture. If not you will have to do it over the phone and work with the herbs. Assuming acupuncture: You can create a calming atmosphere for her and also let her know you are supporting her through this (not curing her). That is up to her body in its time. Also focus on her taking the stress off of an instant cure and then removing or being at ease with some of the stress in her life. Now given all that, I would do treatments to clear the heat. And that would be Back Shu points for the yin meridians only, which we call in the Worsley tradition (AE or agressive energy). These would be BL 13,14, 15 (put in last), 18, 20, 23. Right to left, even , very low fen depth so needle is almost hanging, not sticking straight up. You can put in test needles in each jaio to compare the redness on the points and and redness on a non point. When the redness clears, the heat or toxins clear. The protcol is 20 mins but can take a lot longer especially in her case. You may have to do over a series of treatments (and leave them in as long as you can in that treatment slot). I might put them right when she comes in, in while she's sitting up, then start coaching her on the things mentioned above. If you can give her a little rest time with the needles also that would be great. You can do that on subsequent treatments as well (rest time.) I really don't like the idea of massage with all those flare ups. Good luck, I hope this helps somewhat. It is a lot easier to be objective when we are at a distance from it. This is only meant to support you in your concern and care for her. Anne Ann wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 > months > I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 > different > types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've > managed > to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to > suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her > wrists and > upper back. > She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. > When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good > BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to > nourish > her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao > Chai Hu > Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). > W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now > presenting quite differently................. > Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP > see her attached e-mail below; > > > thanks for any suggestions, Ann > > > I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as > prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the > antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept > ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my > wrist, > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my > massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's > back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right > side > (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > > My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my > lips were > a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that > would > be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend > has > benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of > making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God > for small mercies... > > All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then > more > each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well > you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my > sister.. " I've > never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look > like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe > I'm just a nutcase. > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Hi Anne, I think this is a great perspective. Its so easy to buy into a patient's panic about a condition, as well as their impatience. How many times have I done this?! I should keep this post around to remind me... Laura Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <blazing.valley@v...> wrote: > Ann: > > Pardon my directness here. But everyone has to relax here. First you, > just treat this case one step at a time like you would do any. Get > advice and moral support, and then methodically go along. Take the > tension off " curing her. " This may have to run its course. > > Your patient seems like a pretty stressed person, one about her hives > and the other about moving at a rapid pace. She needs to settle down > and relax about life. I would treat her with this as the main goal. > This is more than likely the " root " of the problem. Now acupuncture and > your words can help her get there. I am assuming you are treating her > with acupuncture. If not you will have to do it over the phone and work > with the herbs. > > Assuming acupuncture: You can create a calming atmosphere for her and > also let her know you are supporting her through this (not curing her). > That is up to her body in its time. Also focus on her taking the stress > off of an instant cure and then removing or being at ease with some of > the stress in her life. > > Now given all that, I would do treatments to clear the heat. And that > would be Back Shu points for the yin meridians only, which we call in > the Worsley tradition (AE or agressive energy). These would be BL > 13,14, 15 (put in last), 18, 20, 23. Right to left, even , very low fen > depth so needle is almost hanging, not sticking straight up. You can > put in test needles in each jaio to compare the redness on the points > and and redness on a non point. When the redness clears, the heat or > toxins clear. The protcol is 20 mins but can take a lot longer > especially in her case. You may have to do over a series of treatments > (and leave them in as long as you can in that treatment slot). > > I might put them right when she comes in, in while she's sitting up, > then start coaching her on the things mentioned above. If you can give > her a little rest time with the needles also that would be great. You > can do that on subsequent treatments as well (rest time.) > > I really don't like the idea of massage with all those flare ups. > > Good luck, > > I hope this helps somewhat. It is a lot easier to be objective when we > are at a distance from it. This is only meant to support you in your > concern and care for her. > > Anne > > > Ann wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 > > months > > I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 > > different > > types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've > > managed > > to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to > > suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her > > wrists and > > upper back. > > She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. > > When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good > > BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to > > nourish > > her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao > > Chai Hu > > Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). > > W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now > > presenting quite differently................. > > Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP > > see her attached e-mail below; > > > > > > thanks for any suggestions, Ann > > > > > > I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as > > prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the > > antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept > > ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my > > wrist, > > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my > > massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's > > back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right > > side > > (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was > > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > > > > My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of > > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping > > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my > > lips were > > a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that > > would > > be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend > > has > > benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of > > making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God > > for small mercies... > > > > All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then > > more > > each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well > > you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my > > sister.. " I've > > never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look > > like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe > > I'm just a nutcase. > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > and > > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > > group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > > academics, > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Ann, I think your tongue sign being red should be considered in creating your formulas. There may be Spleen Xu signs but the red tongue shows a heat factor that many tonifying herbs could aggravate. There is so much of her history I don't know to really suggest more. Is this chronic and for how long. Her age and when it started. There are other causes of loose stools such as heat besides Spleen Xu. Are there phlegm signs. Diet is also a factor. Have you given her a temperature specific guide to food? Ellie Schafer , Ann <dr.annzee@s...> wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months > I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different > types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed > to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to > suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and > upper back. > She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. > When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good > BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish > her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu > Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). > W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now > presenting quite differently................. > Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP > see her attached e-mail below; > > > thanks for any suggestions, Ann > > > I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as > prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the > antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept > ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my > massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's > back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side > (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > > My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were > a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would > be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend > has > benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of > making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God > for small mercies... > > All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more > each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well > you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've > never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look > like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe > I'm just a nutcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 OOps, I see she is 30 years old. I personally don't have alot of expertise on this as I am just starting my own practise. I have observed many skin cases with herbs working in an herbal pharmacy and in my internship using herbs. Heat is one thing that stands out as a factor such as using cooling herbs. I am not sure if you are modifying your formulas or using them straight on. Also how deep is the heat and could you use surface releasing herbs as well? Blood deficiency could be possible with Sp Xu however is she constitutionally Xu/deficient or can she be excess too? And is her diet well balanced and supportive to healthy skin? I am assuming she has seen a dermatologist and has been checked out for the cause of her hives since she has been given antihistamines. It is interesting to think the Large Intestine and Lung could be related in this case. The hives appearance on the body in what seems Yang areas, upper body, face as Stomach and Large Intestine channels. Just an interest in your case, good luck, Ellie Schafer , Ann <dr.annzee@s...> wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > I'm at my wits end with this case and need some help. For the past 4 months > I have been treating a 30 yr old woman who was initially taking 3 different > types of anti hist meds plus a general anti hist called Aerius. I've managed > to get her down to just the Aerius only when the hives onset. She used to > suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always on her wrists and > upper back. > She has Spleen xu, wiry pulse, softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat. > When I first saw her I put her on Xiao Feng San-that one did the most good > BUT her hives still occured, so I put her on Dang Gui Si Ni Tang to nourish > her blood and Spleen. Sill hives, so my last round of herbs are Xiao Chai Hu > Tang and Jade screen and xanthium formula(just for histamine control). > W/these formulas you'll see from the attached e-mail, her hives are now > presenting quite differently................. > Does anyone out there have any suggestions, PLEASE HELP > see her attached e-mail below; > > > thanks for any suggestions, Ann > > > I have been managing to get the herbs down without too much gagging, as > prescribed. Since I picked them up, I have taken them and about 8 of the > antihistamine ones, but no Aerius. Today, I got small hives but kept > ignoring them, they would go away and come back somewhere else, on my wrist, > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow. Well I guess the hurry to my > massage and the rub down combined were the straw that broke the camel's > back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my right side > (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > > My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my lips were > a plumped as well. I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would > be the end of it. I'm sitting here with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend > has > benevolently agreed to pick me up after his soccer practice instead of > making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the sidelines...thank God > for small mercies... > > All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then more > each time, finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well > you know what happens. It's like a tidal wave, according to my sister.. " I've > never seen someone get hives on the bags under their eyes before, you look > like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some suggestions, or maybe > I'm just a nutcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 You may want to take a look at Jake Fratkin's article about Leaky Gut Syndrome. It has some excellent herb suggestions for allergies. You can find it on his site on this page: http://www.drjakefratkin.com/hd.htm Note that he is of the opinion that the conditon does not improve unless the allergens are avoided. To understand what the patient's allergies are, you may want to look into ELISA testing at Great Smokies (or elsewhere). One thing to keep in mind about the testing: the patient needs to eat or be in contact with the allergens in the two weeks before the blood is taken. (Otherwise, the results will not be accurate.) Great Smokies sends along a CD that lists all the items that are tested. You can give your patient the list and ask her to eat them in the two weeks prior to the test. Does she have an epipen? Foods would be a good place to start. But if there is still a problem, you may have to look deeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Ann, was this issue reconciled? Did I miss a post? Holmes. dkakobad wrote: > Ann wrote: > > < She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her chest, always > on her wrists and upper back. > > > Possible 5 E designs: > Heat under skin, Heat in LU, HT attacking Lu Metal > > < She has Spleen xu > > > SP Mother Deficient causing LU Metal Deficiency, making her open for > attack by HT > > < wiry pulse > > > Weak LU cannot restrain Wood, hence wiry [this is somewhat far fetched] > > < softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat > > > LI of LU involved, a HT ST pattern, still leads to HT > > ______ > > < small hives - ignoring them, they would go away and come back > somewhere else, on my wrist, > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow> > > Heat in skin, either LU yin consumed, or HT offending LU > > < Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined were > the straw that broke the > camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, particularly on my > right side >. > > This is very telling. She basically pressured an already Full Heat > condition trapped in a closed > space as the skin, aggravating it s it spread all over. > One is dealing with Endogenous Heat which tracks to skin. > > Provisional thought: a HT Aggressing LU condition, where origin of Heat > is HT, and > place of surfacing, LU and then to skin. This track to skin is because > of a weak LU > as well as a compromised Yangwei. > > < (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought it was > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on the left). > > > For symptoms to surface ipsilaterally, there must either be: > A serious asymmetry at the level of Dai vessel, or > A decided shift in the Yangwei Oceans. > > Provisional thoughts refined: the basic pattern is still the same, with > the added picture of > an inherent asymmetry and/or a lean Yangwei Ocean. > > < My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I popped two of > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage and keeping > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and my > lips were > a plumped as well. > > > No surprise here. This is an Excess born of a Deficiency. The last thing > to do is to > drain the Heat. > > < I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be the end of > it. I'm sitting here > with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed to pick > me up after his soccer > practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him from the > sidelines...thank God > for small mercies... > > > Is everything well with this relationship? Has the hives coincided with > the beginning of this > relationship, do the attacks run tandem with ups and downs? > > Relationships sit on the HT, and in time drain it's yin. Soon enough > sadness turns into > grief, and injures LU. The track from HT to LU is set. All that remains > are the hives. > > < All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at first then > more each time, > finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well you know > what happens. It's like a tidal > wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives on the > bags under their eyes before, > you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some > suggestions, or maybe > I'm just a nutcase. > > > Hives under eyes is literally HT backing up into K, a serious turn of > events. > > Firts order of the day, recognize it for it is, an emergent condition > which is life threatening. > A standby for 911 should be in place, the nearest person hsould do that, > the patient, > healer, boyfriend. > > !!! > The condition is perilously close to in WM parlance, anaphylaxis, an > allergic reaction which > can extend to the blood volume and send it crashing, as well as cause > dyspnea. > !!! > > Provisional diagnostic patternt in sequence: > 1. Incredible sadness of an ongoing nature. > 2. HT yin drained. > 3. Tendency to HT Heat and Fire. > 4. HT in time aggressing on LU Metal. > 5. Metal weak and in time melted. > 6. Pores closed shut, no perspiration, natural heat loss. > 7. Heat collects under skin as hives. > 8. Heat migrates not because of Wind but because of Fire. > 9. In time, or precedingly, Dai and Yangwei are involved. > 10. Because of this there is asymmetry, or the other way around. > > Next step: > A. Confirm HT and LU with triggers. > B. Establish release points, this should work on triggers. > C. Is there asymmtry? > D. Palpate Dai to exclude it. > > Support with: > Tongue picture, there should be: > a. midline fissure extending to tip > b. LU depressions at tongue > c. maybe a conical tongue with pointed anterior 2/3. > > Ear: > ear lobe crese > > HT & LU: > back shu front mu points > > Andomen: > R abd reactive - LU > Ren 13 to 14 - shallow, see in slanted light - HT > > See body temp: > if normal - illness not serious, will heal > if high - illness is in flux, needs to be addressed, but noit serious, > will heal > if low, subnomal - illness advanced, reverse at once, treat as emergency > > Provisional diagnosis: > HT offending LU creating Heat under skin > Subsidiary elements - a Dai and Yangwei imbalanced > > Holmes. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 A heartfelt thanks to all of you who replied to my post. There were so many intelligent assertions and subtleties I hadn't yet considered. I am going through each post to determine which will fit. And its been so interesting receiving your diiferent TCM perspectives. I will keep you posted, thank you once again as Attillo would say, kindest regards to all of you, Ann - dkakobad <dkaikobad Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:34 am Re: Hives-HELP!!! > > Ann, was this issue reconciled? Did I miss a post? > > Holmes. > > > dkakobad wrote: > > > Ann wrote: > > > > < She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her > chest, always > > on her wrists and upper back. > > > > > Possible 5 E designs: > > Heat under skin, Heat in LU, HT attacking Lu Metal > > > > < She has Spleen xu > > > > > SP Mother Deficient causing LU Metal Deficiency, making her open for > > attack by HT > > > > < wiry pulse > > > > > Weak LU cannot restrain Wood, hence wiry [this is somewhat far > fetched]> > > < softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat > > > > > LI of LU involved, a HT ST pattern, still leads to HT > > > > ______ > > > > < small hives - ignoring them, they would go away and come back > > somewhere else, on my wrist, > > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow> > > > > Heat in skin, either LU yin consumed, or HT offending LU > > > > < Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined > were> the straw that broke the > > camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, > particularly on my > > right side >. > > > > This is very telling. She basically pressured an already Full Heat > > condition trapped in a closed > > space as the skin, aggravating it s it spread all over. > > One is dealing with Endogenous Heat which tracks to skin. > > > > Provisional thought: a HT Aggressing LU condition, where origin > of Heat > > is HT, and > > place of surfacing, LU and then to skin. This track to skin is > because> of a weak LU > > as well as a compromised Yangwei. > > > > < (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought > it was > > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on > the left). > > > > > For symptoms to surface ipsilaterally, there must either be: > > A serious asymmetry at the level of Dai vessel, or > > A decided shift in the Yangwei Oceans. > > > > Provisional thoughts refined: the basic pattern is still the > same, with > > the added picture of > > an inherent asymmetry and/or a lean Yangwei Ocean. > > > > < My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I > popped two of > > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage > and keeping > > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and > my > > lips were > > a plumped as well. > > > > > No surprise here. This is an Excess born of a Deficiency. The > last thing > > to do is to > > drain the Heat. > > > > < I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be > the end of > > it. I'm sitting here > > with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed > to pick > > me up after his soccer > > practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him > from the > > sidelines...thank God > > for small mercies... > > > > > Is everything well with this relationship? Has the hives > coincided with > > the beginning of this > > relationship, do the attacks run tandem with ups and downs? > > > > Relationships sit on the HT, and in time drain it's yin. Soon enough > > sadness turns into > > grief, and injures LU. The track from HT to LU is set. All that > remains> are the hives. > > > > < All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at > first then > > more each time, > > finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well > you know > > what happens. It's like a tidal > > wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives > on the > > bags under their eyes before, > > you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some > > suggestions, or maybe > > I'm just a nutcase. > > > > > Hives under eyes is literally HT backing up into K, a serious > turn of > > events. > > > > Firts order of the day, recognize it for it is, an emergent > condition> which is life threatening. > > A standby for 911 should be in place, the nearest person hsould > do that, > > the patient, > > healer, boyfriend. > > > > !!! > > The condition is perilously close to in WM parlance, > anaphylaxis, an > > allergic reaction which > > can extend to the blood volume and send it crashing, as well as > cause> dyspnea. > > !!! > > > > Provisional diagnostic patternt in sequence: > > 1. Incredible sadness of an ongoing nature. > > 2. HT yin drained. > > 3. Tendency to HT Heat and Fire. > > 4. HT in time aggressing on LU Metal. > > 5. Metal weak and in time melted. > > 6. Pores closed shut, no perspiration, natural heat loss. > > 7. Heat collects under skin as hives. > > 8. Heat migrates not because of Wind but because of Fire. > > 9. In time, or precedingly, Dai and Yangwei are involved. > > 10. Because of this there is asymmetry, or the other way around. > > > > Next step: > > A. Confirm HT and LU with triggers. > > B. Establish release points, this should work on triggers. > > C. Is there asymmtry? > > D. Palpate Dai to exclude it. > > > > Support with: > > Tongue picture, there should be: > > a. midline fissure extending to tip > > b. LU depressions at tongue > > c. maybe a conical tongue with pointed anterior 2/3. > > > > Ear: > > ear lobe crese > > > > HT & LU: > > back shu front mu points > > > > Andomen: > > R abd reactive - LU > > Ren 13 to 14 - shallow, see in slanted light - HT > > > > See body temp: > > if normal - illness not serious, will heal > > if high - illness is in flux, needs to be addressed, but noit > serious,> will heal > > if low, subnomal - illness advanced, reverse at once, treat as > emergency> > > Provisional diagnosis: > > HT offending LU creating Heat under skin > > Subsidiary elements - a Dai and Yangwei imbalanced > > > > Holmes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Dr. Kakobad, if I may, I have a few questions regarding your observations; -you've mentioned an ipsilateral occurance resulting from Dai Mai asymmetry or shift in the yangwei oceans. If there is a Dai Mai imbalance, can it be seen from one of your visual posture tests or are you speaking of the meridian itself. Also, what may cause an imbalance in this meridian? -if this excess born of deficiency, then by not draining heat and tonifying the Xu, would I not cause a flare up once again? -In your " next steps " you mention release points and triggers. what do you mean? Thank you Dr, when you have a moment, Ann > > dkakobad wrote: > > > Ann wrote: > > > > < She used to suffer quite terribly everyday, hives on her > chest, always > > on her wrists and upper back. > > > > > Possible 5 E designs: > > Heat under skin, Heat in LU, HT attacking Lu Metal > > > > < She has Spleen xu > > > > > SP Mother Deficient causing LU Metal Deficiency, making her open for > > attack by HT > > > > < wiry pulse > > > > > Weak LU cannot restrain Wood, hence wiry [this is somewhat far > fetched]> > > < softer stools, red tongue w/minimal coat > > > > > LI of LU involved, a HT ST pattern, still leads to HT > > > > ______ > > > > < small hives - ignoring them, they would go away and come back > > somewhere else, on my wrist, > > hands, palms, or on the inside of my elbow> > > > > Heat in skin, either LU yin consumed, or HT offending LU > > > > < Well I guess the hurry to my massage and the rub down combined > were> the straw that broke the > > camel's back. I hived all over my back and shoulders, > particularly on my > > right side >. > > > > This is very telling. She basically pressured an already Full Heat > > condition trapped in a closed > > space as the skin, aggravating it s it spread all over. > > One is dealing with Endogenous Heat which tracks to skin. > > > > Provisional thought: a HT Aggressing LU condition, where origin > of Heat > > is HT, and > > place of surfacing, LU and then to skin. This track to skin is > because> of a weak LU > > as well as a compromised Yangwei. > > > > < (My massage therapist asked me to mention that, as she thought > it was > > peculiar that most were on that side, only a few scattered on > the left). > > > > > For symptoms to surface ipsilaterally, there must either be: > > A serious asymmetry at the level of Dai vessel, or > > A decided shift in the Yangwei Oceans. > > > > Provisional thoughts refined: the basic pattern is still the > same, with > > the added picture of > > an inherent asymmetry and/or a lean Yangwei Ocean. > > > > < My lips were a bit swollen at the top this morning, but I > popped two of > > those antihistamines and thought I was safe. After the massage > and keeping > > my head face down in that little hole, my eyes were swollen and > my > > lips were > > a plumped as well. > > > > > No surprise here. This is an Excess born of a Deficiency. The > last thing > > to do is to > > drain the Heat. > > > > < I went home and took a whole Aerius and hoped that would be > the end of > > it. I'm sitting here > > with my swollen eyes, and my boyfriend has benevolently agreed > to pick > > me up after his soccer > > practice instead of making his deformed girlfriend champion him > from the > > sidelines...thank God > > for small mercies... > > > > > Is everything well with this relationship? Has the hives > coincided with > > the beginning of this > > relationship, do the attacks run tandem with ups and downs? > > > > Relationships sit on the HT, and in time drain it's yin. Soon enough > > sadness turns into > > grief, and injures LU. The track from HT to LU is set. All that > remains> are the hives. > > > > < All I can say is that the hives pop up and go away small at > first then > > more each time, > > finally I get tired of fighting it and it goes crazy and...well > you know > > what happens. It's like a tidal > > wave, according to my sister.. " I've never seen someone get hives > on the > > bags under their eyes before, > > you look like someone beat you up " . I'm hoping you have some > > suggestions, or maybe > > I'm just a nutcase. > > > > > Hives under eyes is literally HT backing up into K, a serious > turn of > > events. > > > > Firts order of the day, recognize it for it is, an emergent > condition> which is life threatening. > > A standby for 911 should be in place, the nearest person hsould > do that, > > the patient, > > healer, boyfriend. > > > > !!! > > The condition is perilously close to in WM parlance, > anaphylaxis, an > > allergic reaction which > > can extend to the blood volume and send it crashing, as well as > cause> dyspnea. > > !!! > > > > Provisional diagnostic patternt in sequence: > > 1. Incredible sadness of an ongoing nature. > > 2. HT yin drained. > > 3. Tendency to HT Heat and Fire. > > 4. HT in time aggressing on LU Metal. > > 5. Metal weak and in time melted. > > 6. Pores closed shut, no perspiration, natural heat loss. > > 7. Heat collects under skin as hives. > > 8. Heat migrates not because of Wind but because of Fire. > > 9. In time, or precedingly, Dai and Yangwei are involved. > > 10. Because of this there is asymmetry, or the other way around. > > > > Next step: > > A. Confirm HT and LU with triggers. > > B. Establish release points, this should work on triggers. > > C. Is there asymmtry? > > D. Palpate Dai to exclude it. > > > > Support with: > > Tongue picture, there should be: > > a. midline fissure extending to tip > > b. LU depressions at tongue > > c. maybe a conical tongue with pointed anterior 2/3. > > > > Ear: > > ear lobe crese > > > > HT & LU: > > back shu front mu points > > > > Andomen: > > R abd reactive - LU > > Ren 13 to 14 - shallow, see in slanted light - HT > > > > See body temp: > > if normal - illness not serious, will heal > > if high - illness is in flux, needs to be addressed, but noit > serious,> will heal > > if low, subnomal - illness advanced, reverse at once, treat as > emergency> > > Provisional diagnosis: > > HT offending LU creating Heat under skin > > Subsidiary elements - a Dai and Yangwei imbalanced > > > > Holmes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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