Guest guest Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right way to enter these. Does one tonify both? Does one tonify one and reduce the other? Does one reduce the both? Does one simply place needles in the most indurated point and sit tight? Is there a sequence to needling? A sequence to removing needles? LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning will help, one might even increase Stagnation. If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to wards a female icon, a rush of energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods Son, Metallio Magnus. In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating with rapid movement] will actually serve to tonify it. If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one also tome it to tone it? Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid reducing-like movements]. This was taught to me by a great Teacher. So does one end up applying reduction in order to tone? If the ancients called these Gates, something must enter, or something leave. Can someone help out? Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 I was taught that Liv 3 can nourish and soften Liv, so tonify; Li 4 can purge and move, so reduce. Together can soften and move Liv Works for me. Still eager to here other thoughts. Peter --- dkakobad <dkaikobad wrote: Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right way to enter these. Does one tonify both? Does one tonify one and reduce the other? Does one reduce the both? Does one simply place needles in the most indurated point and sit tight? Is there a sequence to needling? A sequence to removing needles? LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning will help, one might even increase Stagnation. If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to wards a female icon, a rush of energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods Son, Metallio Magnus. In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating with rapid movement] will actually serve to tonify it. If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one also tome it to tone it? Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid reducing-like movements]. This was taught to me by a great Teacher. So does one end up applying reduction in order to tone? If the ancients called these Gates, something must enter, or something leave. Can someone help out? Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 Our job is not to fulfill patients' expectations of care, but to fulfill their needs. I think you are right, this is not appropriate care. On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:51 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Anyone else have " Four Gates Junkies " in their practice? I have > clients who want the 4 Gates every time I see them. I worry that > moving their qi that much each week, even with tonifying points, is > depleting. Any thoughts? > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points at all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with propogation. I know he has become biased but I still think he has something useful to say about acupuncture. He HAS put a lot of runs on the board regarding acupuncture and I think anyone with this much experience could have some good information to offer. Personally I think that five phase acupuncture has a lot of holes(as does any system)and that these holes can be filled with " other " knowledge of acupuncture. Maybe Hegu and Taichong are " depots " that can become tangled with information. When choosing TO NEEDLE these points it MAY not always be necessary to use a five phase template or concept just effective needling to untangle and allow the information to flow again. Ray Ford dkakobad [dkaikobad] Saturday, 26 March 2005 1:44 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Four Gates Junkies Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right way to enter these. Does one tonify both? Does one tonify one and reduce the other? Does one reduce the both? Does one simply place needles in the most indurated point and sit tight? Is there a sequence to needling? A sequence to removing needles? LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning will help, one might even increase Stagnation. If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to wards a female icon, a rush of energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods Son, Metallio Magnus. In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating with rapid movement] will actually serve to tonify it. If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one also tome it to tone it? Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid reducing-like movements]. This was taught to me by a great Teacher. So does one end up applying reduction in order to tone? If the ancients called these Gates, something must enter, or something leave. Can someone help out? Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 that makes sense. holmes ray ford wrote: > Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying > acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners > but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. > After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his > book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points at > all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with > propogation. > I know he has become biased but I still think he has something useful to > say about acupuncture. He HAS put a lot of runs on the board regarding > acupuncture and I think anyone with this much experience could have some > good information to offer. Personally I think that five phase > acupuncture has a lot of holes(as does any system)and that these holes > can be filled with " other " knowledge of acupuncture. > Maybe Hegu and Taichong are " depots " that can become tangled with > information. When choosing TO NEEDLE these points it MAY not always be > necessary to use a five phase template or concept just effective > needling to untangle and allow the information to flow again. > Ray Ford > > > dkakobad [dkaikobad] > Saturday, 26 March 2005 1:44 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Four Gates Junkies > > > Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right way to enter > these. > > Does one tonify both? > Does one tonify one and reduce the other? > Does one reduce the both? > Does one simply place needles in the most indurated point and sit tight? > Is there a sequence to needling? > A sequence to removing needles? > > LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. > > If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning will help, one > might even > increase Stagnation. > > If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to wards a female icon, a > > rush of > energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods Son, Metallio > Magnus. > > In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating with rapid movement] > > will > actually serve to tonify it. > > If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? > > LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one also tome it to tone > it? > Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid reducing-like > movements]. > This was taught to me by a great Teacher. > > So does one end up applying reduction in order to tone? > > If the ancients called these Gates, something must enter, or something > leave. > > Can someone help out? > > Holmes. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 the four gates, are yuan point (source point), hegu is yang and control the qi and taichong is yin and controll the blood. those are the gates where the qi and blood pass through and communicate. according to me, they just open the 'main stream of qi and blood' when the upper side and the lower side do not communicate such as in short breath and difficulties to urinate. usually are togheter with fenglong and yanglkingquan can diminuish the flegm and disperse the fire treating the diankuang; so togheter baihui and shenmen pacify the shen and so on.(as by Mr. Gao Lishan). in few words they open the gates more to let out than to let in, as inside there are some obstructions. also open the joints and let to flow the stasis. the problem which one should be tonyied or dispersed or which one should use first, usually the needle goes first on the lower part and than the upper part as the eneergy starts from the bottom... thanks luigi Chinese Medicine , dkakobad <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > that makes sense. > holmes > > ray ford wrote: > > > Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying > > acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners > > but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. > > After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his > > book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points at > > all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with > > propogation. > > I know he has become biased but I still think he has something useful to > > say about acupuncture. He HAS put a lot of runs on the board regarding > > acupuncture and I think anyone with this much experience could have some > > good information to offer. Personally I think that five phase > > acupuncture has a lot of holes(as does any system)and that these holes > > can be filled with " other " knowledge of acupuncture. > > Maybe Hegu and Taichong are " depots " that can become tangled with > > information. When choosing TO NEEDLE these points it MAY not always be > > necessary to use a five phase template or concept just effective > > needling to untangle and allow the information to flow again. > > Ray Ford > > > > > > dkakobad [dkaikobad@c...] > > Saturday, 26 March 2005 1:44 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Four Gates Junkies > > > > > > Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right way to enter > > these. > > > > Does one tonify both? > > Does one tonify one and reduce the other? > > Does one reduce the both? > > Does one simply place needles in the most indurated point and sit tight? > > Is there a sequence to needling? > > A sequence to removing needles? > > > > LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. > > > > If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning will help, one > > might even > > increase Stagnation. > > > > If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to wards a female icon, a > > > > rush of > > energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods Son, Metallio > > Magnus. > > > > In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating with rapid movement] > > > > will > > actually serve to tonify it. > > > > If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? > > > > LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one also tome it to tone > > it? > > Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid reducing-like > > movements]. > > This was taught to me by a great Teacher. > > > > So does one end up applying reduction in order to tone? > > > > If the ancients called these Gates, something must enter, or something > > leave. > > > > Can someone help out? > > > > Holmes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Luigi wrote the four gates, are yuan point (source point), hegu is yang and control the qi and taichong is yin and controll the blood. those are the gates where the qi and blood pass through and communicate...... Hello luigi, Qi and blood pass through the whole body all the time not just the four gates, when this stops we are dead. Qi and blood are always in communication as qi leads the blood. Could you please explain a little more as I am not understanding your ideas. Thanks Ray Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 I look at these 'templates' as maps of the human body-mind terrain. . . the map is not the territory, and one can use different maps. It doesn't mean, however that channels and points aren't 'real', just that they are more like the relationship of software to hardware (body anatomy and physiology). This was one of Dr. Yoshio Manaka's core ideas as well. On Mar 25, 2005, at 8:17 PM, ray ford wrote: > Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying > acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners > but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. > After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his > book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points > at > all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with > propogation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Hi Zev--I loved what you said here. That's a really profound perspective--that there can be as many maps of the same terrain as we can create. Also, it helps explain why one type of map might be more useful than another in a given situation. That might be a good way to look at many things in the universe, come to think of it....religions being an example that comes to mind. Laura Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I look at these 'templates' as maps of the human body-mind terrain. . . > the map is not the territory, and one can use different maps. It > doesn't mean, however that channels and points aren't 'real', just that > they are more like the relationship of software to hardware (body > anatomy and physiology). This was one of Dr. Yoshio Manaka's core > ideas as well. > > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 8:17 PM, ray ford wrote: > > > Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying > > acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners > > but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. > > After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his > > book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points > > at > > all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with > > propogation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai might have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and last names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. Bonghan identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his Ph D with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive isotope thru the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research are in sync. When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is metaphorical only it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we will reject it due to dogma. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " heylaurag " <heylaurag >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Four Gates Junkies >Sun, 27 Mar 2005 05:27:14 -0000 > > >Hi Zev--I loved what you said here. That's a really profound >perspective--that there can be as many maps of the same terrain as we >can create. Also, it helps explain why one type of map might be more >useful than another in a given situation. That might be a good way to >look at many things in the universe, come to think of it....religions >being an example that comes to mind. > >Laura > > > >Chinese Medicine , " " ><zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > I look at these 'templates' as maps of the human body-mind terrain. . . > > the map is not the territory, and one can use different maps. It > > doesn't mean, however that channels and points aren't 'real', just that > > they are more like the relationship of software to hardware (body > > anatomy and physiology). This was one of Dr. Yoshio Manaka's core > > ideas as well. > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 8:17 PM, ray ford wrote: > > > > > Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying > > > acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners > > > but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. > > > After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his > > > book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points > > > at > > > all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with > > > propogation. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 This brings up an interesting debate over the reality of the vessels. When I hear these arguments from various sources I have to wonder if they have clearly and without bias considered ALL the evidence before making such assumptions. Mr. Mann has made quite the bold statement here. I do not think that he has accessed all the info nor has he come to the correct conclusion. Only time will tell. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Four Gates Junkies >Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:53 -0800 > >I look at these 'templates' as maps of the human body-mind terrain. . . >the map is not the territory, and one can use different maps. It >doesn't mean, however that channels and points aren't 'real', just that >they are more like the relationship of software to hardware (body >anatomy and physiology). This was one of Dr. Yoshio Manaka's core >ideas as well. > > >On Mar 25, 2005, at 8:17 PM, ray ford wrote: > > > Dr Holmes, maybe it all depends on the template we use when applying > > acupuncture. If this is true it may also devastate some practitioners > > but this depends on how attached they are to their methods and theory. > > After thirty or forty years of practice Felix Mann has stated in his > > book " re-inventing acupuncture " that there are no meridians or points > > at > > all just zones or areas that are effective when needled with > > propogation. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 that's true that qi and blood goes together all over the body and there is no question at all. hegu and taichong has points having a strong influence on qi and blood, they are used as a couple in order to open and let flow from obstructions, and to unknott the qi and blood.used as a first prescription based on which follows the appropriate particular points for specific treatment. the patients that where asking to use the four gates, which he might think it works for his own benefit, and which for a correct practice, it has been denied based on 'might not be very good result'. i think, the four gates points are just points that need to be used as, i said, at beginning of a therapy but not as curative points if not coupled with others. the four gates are infact points with an influence on the general body but not on particular aspect of itand for it to remove obstructions of qi and blood in the whole body, lower and upper part trying to reconciliate the yin aspect and the yang aspect of it. i guess that would it be... luigi Chinese Medicine , " ray ford " <rford@p...> wrote: > > Luigi wrote > the four gates, are yuan point (source point), hegu is yang and > control the qi and taichong is yin and controll the blood. those are > the gates where the qi and blood pass through and communicate...... > > > Hello luigi, > Qi and blood pass through the whole body all the time not just the four > gates, when this stops we are dead. Qi and blood are always in > communication as qi leads the blood. Could you please explain a little > more as I am not understanding your ideas. > > Thanks Ray Ford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Mike, Perhaps we are too limited in how we see the phenomena of the body, but why does everything have to be 'physical'? We know orbits of planets are real, but can we see them? The Chinese discovered a functional system called the triple burner, said in the Nan Jing to have 'function, but no form'. Does that mean it is not real. To me it is more unrealistic to shove the concept of the channel/network vessel system into the construct of anatomy/physiology. On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:08 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai > might > have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim > Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and last > names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. > Bonghan > identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his > Ph D > with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive > isotope thru > the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these > discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research > are in > sync. > When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is > metaphorical only > it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we > will > reject it due to dogma. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Clearly there are what we call 'points' or 'holes'. Inaccurate needling or moxa will clearly not yield the same clinical result, or response to palpatation of the points. On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:22 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > This brings up an interesting debate over the reality of the vessels. > When > I hear these arguments from various sources I have to wonder if they > have > clearly and without bias considered ALL the evidence before making such > assumptions. Mr. Mann has made quite the bold statement here. I do > not > think that he has accessed all the info nor has he come to the correct > conclusion. Only time will tell. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Zev, I mentioned a connection, not to pidgeon hole the info. When a recently discovered physical structure (hollow tubules) not only follows the ancient jing luo mai but also has internal connections to the organs and carries the highest concentrations of certain chemical substances required for growth and development, it would be in our best interest to want to include this into our professional understanding of the biological world. This structural system may account for certain aspects of our own health. I do not understand why we would not want to solve some of these mysteries that show support for Classical theories. I do believe that there is more to all of this than just these structures but this seems a logical place to start. I would hope that we all can see how important this for our profession. Are you not interested in presence of a structure? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Four Gates Junkies >Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:00:27 -0800 > >Mike, > Perhaps we are too limited in how we see the phenomena of the body, >but why does everything have to be 'physical'? We know orbits of >planets are real, but can we see them? The Chinese discovered a >functional system called the triple burner, said in the Nan Jing to >have 'function, but no form'. Does that mean it is not real. To me it >is more unrealistic to shove the concept of the channel/network vessel >system into the construct of anatomy/physiology. > > >On Mar 27, 2005, at 6:08 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Is it not possible that there might be a possibility that jing luo mai > > might > > have a physical basis? I remember the research work conducted by Kim > > Bonghan, Pierre de Vernajoule and Kwang Sup-Soh. In the first and last > > names mentioned, physical structures (conduits) were identified. > > Bonghan > > identified liquid contents as well. The second name mentioned did his > > Ph D > > with human subjects and measured the movements of a radioactive > > isotope thru > > the jing luo mai. I am not expecting an exact one to one with these > > discoveries but so far it seems that ancient knowledge and research > > are in > > sync. > > When I hear practitioners speak only of TCM/OM as if it is > > metaphorical only > > it makes me wonder if we can ever embrace such profound info or if we > > will > > reject it due to dogma. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I reduce LR 3, 90% of the time. Sometimes I just put in even (in reduction direction). I find this will soften the liver. Sometimes I have gone in an tonified another LR point, if I still feel it needs tonificaiton. Just some thoughts about what has worked for me. Anne Peter Pavolotsky wrote: > I was taught that > Liv 3 can nourish and soften Liv, so tonify; > Li 4 can purge and move, so reduce. > Together can soften and move Liv > Works for me. > Still eager to here other thoughts. > Peter > > > > --- dkakobad <dkaikobad wrote: > > Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right > way to enter these. > > Does one tonify both? > Does one tonify one and reduce the other? > Does one reduce the both? > Does one simply place needles in the most indurated > point and sit tight? > Is there a sequence to needling? > A sequence to removing needles? > > LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. > > If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning > will help, one > might even > increase Stagnation. > > If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to > wards a female icon, a > rush of > energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods > Son, Metallio Magnus. > > In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating > with rapid movement] > will > actually serve to tonify it. > > If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? > > LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one > also tome it to tone it? > Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid > reducing-like movements]. > This was taught to me by a great Teacher. > > So does one end up applying reduction in order to > tone? > > If the ancients called these Gates, something must > enter, or something > leave. > > Can someone help out? > > Holmes. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2005 Report Share Posted April 20, 2005 I read somewhere that LR 3 will reduce the blood pressure. Maybe the bp should be looked at first. Anne Crowley <blazing.valley wrote:I reduce LR 3, 90% of the time. Sometimes I just put in even (in reduction direction). I find this will soften the liver. Sometimes I have gone in an tonified another LR point, if I still feel it needs tonificaiton. Just some thoughts about what has worked for me. Anne Peter Pavolotsky wrote: > I was taught that > Liv 3 can nourish and soften Liv, so tonify; > Li 4 can purge and move, so reduce. > Together can soften and move Liv > Works for me. > Still eager to here other thoughts. > Peter > > > > --- dkakobad <dkaikobad wrote: > > Four Gates usage has always eluded me as to the right > way to enter these. > > Does one tonify both? > Does one tonify one and reduce the other? > Does one reduce the both? > Does one simply place needles in the most indurated > point and sit tight? > Is there a sequence to needling? > A sequence to removing needles? > > LV 3 is horary Mother Earth and benefits Metal. > > If she is in a snit and Stagnated no amount of toning > will help, one > might even > increase Stagnation. > > If she is released, always a dangerous pursuit to > wards a female icon, a > rush of > energy may pass on to the somewhat lost in the woods > Son, Metallio Magnus. > > In which case literally reducing LV 3 [destagnating > with rapid movement] > will > actually serve to tonify it. > > If that is reducing LV 3, wonder what toning is? > > LI 4 is up in the air on the horary clock. Does one > also tome it to tone it? > Or reduce it, because Metal needs Shining [rapid > reducing-like movements]. > This was taught to me by a great Teacher. > > So does one end up applying reduction in order to > tone? > > If the ancients called these Gates, something must > enter, or something > leave. > > Can someone help out? > > Holmes. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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