Is pre-rolled direct moxa thread only for the Weak?

March 2, 2005

Howdy,

I asked some questions about a cheap handheld laser and was advised

that direct moxa was a superior alternative. I do the threads on

myself and induce a small blister. I do not think that I want to

make this a regular clinical practice, I think: blistering people.

Is a pre- " direct-cauterization " thread-moxa extinguishment

sufficient stimulation? Or is this drastically less effective. And

how concerned are other people over scarring moxa? Does anyone know

about that powerful hand held laser, that I still want? Or know of

a gently used Hibiki 7 ????

Cameron

p.s. What is the consensus on Applied Kineseology? fact or fiction?

March 2, 2005

Cameron,

Direct moxa needn't leave scars. Do you use Shiunko or some other ointment?

Extinguish

the first thread and place the rest on the ash of the first one? Always use the

best quality

moxa, and make sure you don't roll it too tightly. Those little Korean

pre-rolled threads

are way too hot -- they are much too tight and usually not pure moxa. If you

learn to roll

it yourself you can easily control the heat. I teach classes in moxibustion

frequently and

show a variety of different techniques for this. It is easier to demonstrate

than write

about, unfortunately.

That having been said, there are times when a small blister is therapeutically

what you

want. The scar is tiny and goes away in about six months. In treating chronic

cases which

have lasted decades the benefit far surpasses the risk, IMO, and i usually don't

have a

problem communicating that to the client. But if i don't want a blister, i just

do non-

scarring direct moxa. Extinguishing the moxa before it reaches the skin is fine

for most

applications -- again it depends on the effect you want to achieve.

The biggest drawback is the labor-intensiveness of the procedure but when you've

practiced it is possible to do the treatment very quickly. In times past when i

had a full

schedule i would routinely burn up to 150 half-rice-grain size moxa during a

forty-minute

tx that involved the followup interview, pulse and hara dx, etc.

Anyway, that's enough from me, i'm sure i've made my point and then some.

rh

Chinese Medicine , " cameronhollister "

<cameronhollister> wrote:

>

> Howdy,

> I asked some questions about a cheap handheld laser and was advised

> that direct moxa was a superior alternative. I do the threads on

> myself and induce a small blister. I do not think that I want to

> make this a regular clinical practice, I think: blistering people.

> Is a pre- " direct-cauterization " thread-moxa extinguishment

> sufficient stimulation? Or is this drastically less effective. And

> how concerned are other people over scarring moxa? Does anyone know

> about that powerful hand held laser, that I still want? Or know of

> a gently used Hibiki 7 ????

>

> Cameron

>

> p.s. What is the consensus on Applied Kineseology? fact or fiction?

March 2, 2005

RH--

What would be examples where you felt scarring moxa was worth it? I

have a patient with cold and blood stagnation in her bladder causing

interstitial cystitis. I wondered if scarring moxa on Ren 2 or 3

might be useful....I'm also wondering about another patient who has

had right sided sacral pain and right sided neck pain for 30 years.

It sounds like you might practice Japanese acupuncture. If that's the

case you need not respond to this because I do not practice Japanese

acupuncture (I'd like to, but I still have so much to learn with TCM),

so I might not follow where you are coming from anyway.

Thanks,

Laura

Chinese Medicine , " kampo36 "

<kampo36> wrote:

>

> Cameron,

>

> Direct moxa needn't leave scars. Do you use Shiunko or some other

ointment? Extinguish

> the first thread and place the rest on the ash of the first one?

Always use the best quality

> moxa, and make sure you don't roll it too tightly. Those little

Korean pre-rolled threads

> are way too hot -- they are much too tight and usually not pure

moxa. If you learn to roll

> it yourself you can easily control the heat. I teach classes in

moxibustion frequently and

> show a variety of different techniques for this. It is easier to

demonstrate than write

> about, unfortunately.

>

> That having been said, there are times when a small blister is

therapeutically what you

> want. The scar is tiny and goes away in about six months. In

treating chronic cases which

> have lasted decades the benefit far surpasses the risk, IMO, and i

usually don't have a

> problem communicating that to the client. But if i don't want a

blister, i just do non-

> scarring direct moxa. Extinguishing the moxa before it reaches the

skin is fine for most

> applications -- again it depends on the effect you want to achieve.

>

> The biggest drawback is the labor-intensiveness of the procedure but

when you've

> practiced it is possible to do the treatment very quickly. In times

past when i had a full

> schedule i would routinely burn up to 150 half-rice-grain size moxa

during a forty-minute

> tx that involved the followup interview, pulse and hara dx, etc.

>

> Anyway, that's enough from me, i'm sure i've made my point and then

some.

>

> rh

>

> Chinese Medicine , " cameronhollister "

> <cameronhollister> wrote:

> >

> > Howdy,

> > I asked some questions about a cheap handheld laser and was advised

> > that direct moxa was a superior alternative. I do the threads on

> > myself and induce a small blister. I do not think that I want to

> > make this a regular clinical practice, I think: blistering people.

> > Is a pre- " direct-cauterization " thread-moxa extinguishment

> > sufficient stimulation? Or is this drastically less effective. And

> > how concerned are other people over scarring moxa? Does anyone know

> > about that powerful hand held laser, that I still want? Or know of

> > a gently used Hibiki 7 ????

> >

> > Cameron

> >

> > p.s. What is the consensus on Applied Kineseology? fact or fiction?

March 2, 2005

Not a good idea on people.

Thread moxa is superbly sufficient, esp when you find an exact release

point for an as

exact trigger point.

The thing can dissipate almost any cold, stagnated " don' wanna move,

thank you "

point which has been stuck athwart a channel forever.

Plenty of times, thread moxa + gentle pressure can move the block, and

almost the

same time you can see nice things happening distally.

If most of intervention is removing blocked qi, thread takes the day.

Dr. Keikobad

www.acu-free.com

cameronhollister wrote:

>

> ... I do the threads on

> myself and induce a small blister. I do not think that I want to

> make this a regular clinical practice, I think: blistering people.

> Is a pre- " direct-cauterization " thread-moxa extinguishment

> sufficient stimulation? Or is this drastically less effective. And

> how concerned are other people over scarring moxa? Does anyone know

> about that powerful hand held laser, that I still want? Or know of

> a gently used Hibiki 7 ????

>

> Cameron

>

> p.s. What is the consensus on Applied Kineseology? fact or fiction?

>

March 2, 2005

Hey Laura G --

Well, yes, i do practice Japanese acupuncture, however i think the distinction

between

systems in this case is not that great. Not having seen either case personally

i couldn't say

if either was worth using scarring moxa, though i suspect the 30 year pain

client would be

amenable to it.

Scars from moxa take longer to heal than methods which don't scar, yes, but that

also

means that the therapeutic effect is longer. Somewhere in Su Wen is the idea

that as long

as one has a few moxa burns healing at any given time, one will remain healthy.

Just to give you an idea, in this particular method we're talking about a

possible blister/

scar no more than the size of a match head, if that. There are methods of

scarring moxa

in Asia which make much larger scars, of course, but they are unpopular and only

used in

cases of extremely recalcitrant blood stasis and such.

Just to be clear, i do not do scarring moxibustion very often, and i have

sufficient technical

ability to make direct moxibustion effective without any pain or tissue damage.

But it is

good to have the choice to ramp up the stim as needed. I don't do much

bloodletting

either, but there are times when nothing else will work.

I always found it interesting that people would gladly endure surgical scars,

even for

elective cosmetic surgery, but be reluctant to submit to the mere possibility of

a tiny --

almost imperceptible for light-skinned people -- scar from the moxibustion.

robert hayden

Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag@h...>

wrote:

>

> RH--

>

> What would be examples where you felt scarring moxa was worth it? I

> have a patient with cold and blood stagnation in her bladder causing

> interstitial cystitis. I wondered if scarring moxa on Ren 2 or 3

> might be useful....I'm also wondering about another patient who has

> had right sided sacral pain and right sided neck pain for 30 years.

>

> It sounds like you might practice Japanese acupuncture. If that's the

> case you need not respond to this because I do not practice Japanese

> acupuncture (I'd like to, but I still have so much to learn with TCM),

> so I might not follow where you are coming from anyway.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Laura

>

March 2, 2005

Hi Robert, Thanks for responding. Interesting stuff. So if I was to

do scarring moxa on the patient with a 30 year history of neck and

sacrum pain would I do it right in the center of the pain and consider

that the " local points " , and then do distal points?

I take it that this is more of a moving treatment than tonifying? Or

maybe both?

Laura

Chinese Medicine , " kampo36 "

<kampo36> wrote:

>

> Hey Laura G --

>

> Well, yes, i do practice Japanese acupuncture, however i think the

distinction between

> systems in this case is not that great. Not having seen either case

personally i couldn't say

> if either was worth using scarring moxa, though i suspect the 30

year pain client would be

> amenable to it.

>

> Scars from moxa take longer to heal than methods which don't scar,

yes, but that also

> means that the therapeutic effect is longer. Somewhere in Su Wen is

the idea that as long

> as one has a few moxa burns healing at any given time, one will

remain healthy.

>

> Just to give you an idea, in this particular method we're talking

about a possible blister/

> scar no more than the size of a match head, if that. There are

methods of scarring moxa

> in Asia which make much larger scars, of course, but they are

unpopular and only used in

> cases of extremely recalcitrant blood stasis and such.

>

> Just to be clear, i do not do scarring moxibustion very often, and i

have sufficient technical

> ability to make direct moxibustion effective without any pain or

tissue damage. But it is

> good to have the choice to ramp up the stim as needed. I don't do

much bloodletting

> either, but there are times when nothing else will work.

>

> I always found it interesting that people would gladly endure

surgical scars, even for

> elective cosmetic surgery, but be reluctant to submit to the mere

possibility of a tiny --

> almost imperceptible for light-skinned people -- scar from the

moxibustion.

>

> robert hayden

>

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag@h...>

> wrote:

> >

> > RH--

> >

> > What would be examples where you felt scarring moxa was worth it? I

> > have a patient with cold and blood stagnation in her bladder causing

> > interstitial cystitis. I wondered if scarring moxa on Ren 2 or 3

> > might be useful....I'm also wondering about another patient who has

> > had right sided sacral pain and right sided neck pain for 30 years.

> >

> > It sounds like you might practice Japanese acupuncture. If that's the

> > case you need not respond to this because I do not practice Japanese

> > acupuncture (I'd like to, but I still have so much to learn with TCM),

> > so I might not follow where you are coming from anyway.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Laura

> >

March 2, 2005

Hi, So are you saying that you would not use the thread moxa locally?

Only on a distal point? Have you ever used it on Dr. Tan imaging

points?

Laura

Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes

Keikobad " <dkaikobad@c...> wrote:

> Not a good idea on people.

>

> Thread moxa is superbly sufficient, esp when you find an exact release

> point for an as

> exact trigger point.

>

> The thing can dissipate almost any cold, stagnated " don' wanna move,

> thank you "

> point which has been stuck athwart a channel forever.

>

> Plenty of times, thread moxa + gentle pressure can move the block, and

> almost the

> same time you can see nice things happening distally.

>

> If most of intervention is removing blocked qi, thread takes the day.

>

> Dr. Keikobad

> www.acu-free.com

>

> cameronhollister wrote:

>

> >

> > ... I do the threads on

> > myself and induce a small blister. I do not think that I want to

> > make this a regular clinical practice, I think: blistering people.

> > Is a pre- " direct-cauterization " thread-moxa extinguishment

> > sufficient stimulation? Or is this drastically less effective. And

> > how concerned are other people over scarring moxa? Does anyone know

> > about that powerful hand held laser, that I still want? Or know of

> > a gently used Hibiki 7 ????

> >

> > Cameron

> >

> > p.s. What is the consensus on Applied Kineseology? fact or fiction?

> >

>

March 2, 2005

I would just start locally by hunting around for some points which are very

indurated --

look for a knot of tissue that feels hard (almost like bone in severe cases) and

elicits pain.

The moxibustion usually works better if there is some moisture in the skin, if

the skin is

too dry there will be a stinging sensation rather than a penetrating sensation.

You want

penetrating if possible.

If you haven't ever done small moxa you'll want to practice a bit on yourself

first. If you're

inexperienced i wouldn't go for direct moxa on distal points, you're likely to

cause more

pain than you want. Back and shoulders have less innervation so they are more

forgiving.

Yes, scarring moxa is more moving. I do both tonifying and draining/moving with

direct

moxa, generally the difference is in the intensity of the stimulation.

You can write me off list if you need specific details, i don't know that the

list is interested

in prolonged discussion on this.

rh

Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag@h...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Robert, Thanks for responding. Interesting stuff. So if I was to

> do scarring moxa on the patient with a 30 year history of neck and

> sacrum pain would I do it right in the center of the pain and consider

> that the " local points " , and then do distal points?

>

> I take it that this is more of a moving treatment than tonifying? Or

> maybe both?

>

> Laura

>

March 3, 2005

kampo36 wrote:

>

> I would just start locally by hunting around for some points which are very

indurated --

> look for a knot of tissue that feels hard (almost like bone in severe cases)

and elicits pain.

> The moxibustion usually works better if there is some moisture in the skin, if

the skin is

> too dry there will be a stinging sensation rather than a penetrating

sensation. You want

> penetrating if possible.

>

> If you haven't ever done small moxa you'll want to practice a bit on yourself

first. If you're

> inexperienced i wouldn't go for direct moxa on distal points, you're likely to

cause more

> pain than you want. Back and shoulders have less innervation so they are more

forgiving.

>

> Yes, scarring moxa is more moving. I do both tonifying and draining/moving

with direct

> moxa, generally the difference is in the intensity of the stimulation.

>

> You can write me off list if you need specific details, i don't know that the

list is interested

> in prolonged discussion on this.

>

> rh

Hi Robert!

I think the list is *quite* interested. This is what we are here for! We

read speculations about sterile theory for hours on end and finally

something we can really use comes along and people want to take it

private? Please post it here for all of us. Thanks.

Regards,

Pete

March 3, 2005

RH:

Are there cases where you feel moxa is contraindicated. I was told high

blood pressure or heat conditions were contraindicated. Also Yin

Deficiency contra in TCM. I have a patient menopausal woman with lots

of heat, also dampness fibromyalgia. She has had long standing backpain

in the sacral area. Would you use moxa on a patient like this. By the

way GuSha on her neck, shoulders and mid back has worked wonders on her

mental state and depression she also goes through,

Thanks,

Anne

kampo36 wrote:

>

> I would just start locally by hunting around for some points which are

> very indurated --

> look for a knot of tissue that feels hard (almost like bone in severe

> cases) and elicits pain.

> The moxibustion usually works better if there is some moisture in the

> skin, if the skin is

> too dry there will be a stinging sensation rather than a penetrating

> sensation. You want

> penetrating if possible.

>

> If you haven't ever done small moxa you'll want to practice a bit on

> yourself first. If you're

> inexperienced i wouldn't go for direct moxa on distal points, you're

> likely to cause more

> pain than you want. Back and shoulders have less innervation so they

> are more forgiving.

>

> Yes, scarring moxa is more moving. I do both tonifying and

> draining/moving with direct

> moxa, generally the difference is in the intensity of the stimulation.

>

> You can write me off list if you need specific details, i don't know

> that the list is interested

> in prolonged discussion on this.

>

> rh

>

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> <heylaurag@h...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Robert, Thanks for responding. Interesting stuff. So if I was to

> > do scarring moxa on the patient with a 30 year history of neck and

> > sacrum pain would I do it right in the center of the pain and consider

> > that the " local points " , and then do distal points?

> >

> > I take it that this is more of a moving treatment than tonifying? Or

> > maybe both?

> >

> > Laura

> >

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

March 3, 2005

Very funny Pete. I agree with you on making it public.

Anne

Pete Theisen wrote:

> kampo36 wrote:

> >

> > I would just start locally by hunting around for some points which

> are very indurated --

> > look for a knot of tissue that feels hard (almost like bone in

> severe cases) and elicits pain.

> > The moxibustion usually works better if there is some moisture in

> the skin, if the skin is

> > too dry there will be a stinging sensation rather than a penetrating

> sensation. You want

> > penetrating if possible.

> >

> > If you haven't ever done small moxa you'll want to practice a bit on

> yourself first. If you're

> > inexperienced i wouldn't go for direct moxa on distal points, you're

> likely to cause more

> > pain than you want. Back and shoulders have less innervation so

> they are more forgiving.

> >

> > Yes, scarring moxa is more moving. I do both tonifying and

> draining/moving with direct

> > moxa, generally the difference is in the intensity of the stimulation.

> >

> > You can write me off list if you need specific details, i don't know

> that the list is interested

> > in prolonged discussion on this.

> >

> > rh

> Hi Robert!

>

> I think the list is *quite* interested. This is what we are here for! We

> read speculations about sterile theory for hours on end and finally

> something we can really use comes along and people want to take it

> private? Please post it here for all of us. Thanks.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

March 3, 2005

When we're talking about moxibustion, we have to distinguish between the various

types

and techniques. The moxibustion to which i'm referring is direct moxa of

between half-

rice grain and thread size, usually burned on a small amount of lithospermum

ointment

(AKA shiunko/zi yun gao) placed on a specific point. So it is very different

from the

warming type of stick moxa or kyutoshin/needle moxa, etc.

Also, i practice moxibustion according to the instruction of Japanese teachers,

so the

theoretical constraints are fewer than with TCM. Note that the practice of

moxibustion is

separately licensed in Japan, and there are examples of practitioners (some

quite famous)

licensed only in moxibustion -- so they tx pretty much everything that comes

their way

with various moxibustion techniques.

There are types of moxibustion which are specifically used for heat conditions,

such as

chinetsukyu (see my article http://jabinet.net/cnk.html ). In cases where there

is acute

inflammation and swelling, chinetsukyu is used to open the pores and induce

local

sweating to vent the Yang qi.

Ikeda sensei showed me different techniques for direct moxa, including

techniques to tx

Yin deficiency. So personally i do not consider Yin deficiency CI.

I've never had a problem with hypertensive patients. Generally high fevers

should not be

treated with moxibustion, but there are well known examples of epidemic febrile

diseases

or acute inflammatory conditions which have been successfully treated by

moxibustionists

in Japan.

Don't do it on people who can't distinguish heat sensations, at least not until

you get good

at it. I've had good results with medication-induced peripheral neuropathy, but

you've still

got to be careful.

Lower abdomen on pregnant women is CI. Some sources give lymphoma as CI.

Damp patients are good candidates for most types of moxibustion. Point location

is

important, that's something that's best shown however... writing about it is not

as good as

demonstrating it. Make sure there is sufficient moisture in the skin at the

point. Sacral

points are some of my favorite points to do direct moxibustion, not just for

back pain but

any lower body or gyne symptom.

With any technique, especially one which requires a bit of dexterity like direct

moxa, start

by rolling and burning at least 100 on yourself, then on a non-litigious friend

before doing

it on paying clients.

BTW i don't like doing guasha because it leaves big marks tiny marks are okay

though.

robert hayden

Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley

<blazing.valley@v...> wrote:

> RH:

>

> Are there cases where you feel moxa is contraindicated. I was told high

> blood pressure or heat conditions were contraindicated. Also Yin

> Deficiency contra in TCM. I have a patient menopausal woman with lots

> of heat, also dampness fibromyalgia. She has had long standing backpain

> in the sacral area. Would you use moxa on a patient like this. By the

> way GuSha on her neck, shoulders and mid back has worked wonders on her

> mental state and depression she also goes through,

>

> Thanks,

>

> Anne

>

March 3, 2005

BTW in case anyone is interested i'm presenting on Japanese moxibustion

treatments for

infertility, pregnancy and delivery at the Great River Symposium in Minnesota,

April 1-3

(i'm scheduled for the 3rd).

rh

March 3, 2005

Thank you for your excellent description of direct moxa!

In my training the Chinese trained TCM practitioners used moxa only as a

warming and tonifying therapy, whereas my one Japanese trained teacher

used moxa as you describe below. It seems that moxa therapy in Japan is

a much finer art than what is widely practiced in China. My instructor

would actually make his own moxa and would use herbs besides Ai Ye

(Mugwort) depending on if he wanted to affect Yin or Yang as well as

other more subtle energetics.

I liked his approach to the use of moxa and had practiced it on friends

and classmates while in school, but have not done it on a paying client

yet. From my very limited experience it is a very powerful and

under-utilized technique which I would not hesitate to use on the

appropriate patient (after they signed my direct moxa informed consent

form and I explained in several different ways that it will cause a

small burn and likely scar).

Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht.

Oasis Acupuncture

http://www.oasisacupuncture.com

8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte

Suite D-35

Scottsdale, AZ 85258