Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Hello: Someone on the TCMental list posted this and would be interested in hearing responses if anyone feels the interest: Regards, Jack " In addition to treating me for a spleen and kidney and qi deficiency with phlegm, my TCM doctor is also been treating me for a shen disturbance. I wasn't quite sure what this was, but he saying that the spirit (shen) is in the blood, and lifts off, and leaves the body during times of abuse and trauma. He says this is the cause of my hyper sensitivity, hyper-vigilance, and has manifested in what western psychology diagnosed as depression, anxiety, and post traumatic stress disorder. I asked him why a shen disturbance would make you more sensitive, as it seems like the less there is of your spirit that stays in your body, the less sensitive you would be, verging on numb. I'd think people would knock into you (physically or emotionally), and you wouldn't even feel it. So why would a shen disturbance make someone super sensitive? He said that it becomes about survival. That we have animal spirits and " spirit " spirits, and a healthy person could have six of them, like six voices, and the animal spirits are more primal voices, and interested in food, sex, and survival, and are consumed with looking out for number one. He says that if something devastating and threatening to your life occurs, you can lose some of the " spirit " spirits, leaving the animal spirits to run the show. The hyper-vigilance is the animal survival instincts in you, super-vigilant to everything happening around you, like abused dogs who cringe and run at every sound. According to him, ideally three spirits can manage six animals, if they're balanced, and work together like a company with three managers. The animal spirits calm down if they're managed. If you develop a shen disturbance from trauma and start to losing some managers, you end up with animal spirits fighting each other, or worried and obsessed, and this can lead to depression or bi-polar, manic depression. Does this make sense? Part of it sounds right, and part of it just sounds airy fairy. Is this TCM? Is this Taoism? I can only find a bit about shen disturbances in various TCM books, and I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find a complete article, or book on them. The doctor said it can take years to cure them which is scary, but I'd like to read and learn more about the process if possible. Is an acupuncturist advanced enough to deal with a shen disturbance? It sounds very frightening, but is it really just another syndrome, or should I be looking for a shen specialist. Is there such a thing, and is so, how would I find one? As usual all you very thoughtful replies have touched me so much, and I'm very grateful for any advice or help. Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Hi Jack, The synopsis you posted sounds pretty accurate. It isn't TCM as much as Classical which is what is referred to prior to Mao's standardizing of the medicine through the filters of communism which edited out almost everything suggesting " spirit " . Shen was left by the communists as it refers more to the mind than anything spiritual. Shen is now often used to refer to everything around spirit in TCM, but classically we have many " spirits " some animal like the Po, and some mental like the Shen, and some deeper like the Hun. There are several on this list that could expand on this a lot more than I can, and I hope they do. :-) Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 (480) 991-3650 Jack Sweeney [mojavecowboy] Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:42 PM Chinese Medicine Shen Disturbance Hello: Someone on the TCMental list posted this and would be interested in hearing responses if anyone feels the interest: Regards, Jack " In addition to treating me for a spleen and kidney and qi deficiency with phlegm, my TCM doctor is also been treating me for a shen disturbance. I wasn't quite sure what this was, but he saying that the spirit (shen) is in the blood, and lifts off, and leaves the body during times of abuse and trauma. He says this is the cause of my hyper sensitivity, hyper-vigilance, and has manifested in what western psychology diagnosed as depression, anxiety, and post traumatic stress disorder. I asked him why a shen disturbance would make you more sensitive, as it seems like the less there is of your spirit that stays in your body, the less sensitive you would be, verging on numb. I'd think people would knock into you (physically or emotionally), and you wouldn't even feel it. So why would a shen disturbance make someone super sensitive? He said that it becomes about survival. That we have animal spirits and " spirit " spirits, and a healthy person could have six of them, like six voices, and the animal spirits are more primal voices, and interested in food, sex, and survival, and are consumed with looking out for number one. He says that if something devastating and threatening to your life occurs, you can lose some of the " spirit " spirits, leaving the animal spirits to run the show. The hyper-vigilance is the animal survival instincts in you, super-vigilant to everything happening around you, like abused dogs who cringe and run at every sound. According to him, ideally three spirits can manage six animals, if they're balanced, and work together like a company with three managers. The animal spirits calm down if they're managed. If you develop a shen disturbance from trauma and start to losing some managers, you end up with animal spirits fighting each other, or worried and obsessed, and this can lead to depression or bi-polar, manic depression. Does this make sense? Part of it sounds right, and part of it just sounds airy fairy. Is this TCM? Is this Taoism? I can only find a bit about shen disturbances in various TCM books, and I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find a complete article, or book on them. The doctor said it can take years to cure them which is scary, but I'd like to read and learn more about the process if possible. Is an acupuncturist advanced enough to deal with a shen disturbance? It sounds very frightening, but is it really just another syndrome, or should I be looking for a shen specialist. Is there such a thing, and is so, how would I find one? As usual all you very thoughtful replies have touched me so much, and I'm very grateful for any advice or help. Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Hello Jack and Christopher, Christopher is right that the theories this practitioner suggested to this patient relate to earlier Chinese medicine concepts that themselves come from Taoist Internal Alchemy ideas. This patient would get more information on this subject by reading David Twicken's fine two-part series in Acupuncture Today's August and September, 2004 issues (www.acupuncturetoday.com). David did a good job reviewing the different versions of Hun and Po spirits. As far as advice for this patient about if their practitioner is able to handle such a problem, of course that is difficult to tell. I would say though that the concepts stated - regarding the loss of Hun spirits causing the Po to be hypersensitive - show this practitioner has a good understanding of the finer concepts that underlie Chinese traditional medicine and this suggests competence in practice. I would also warn though that attempting to work on such a level is very tricky and that this patient should continue to use their instincts/common sense when deciding how to proceed with treatment. Be hopeful and trusting - but not blind trust. For those interested: this subject of Hun and Po spirits really gets to the core of Chinese medicine's early roots that are grounded in Taoist numerology that itself is grounded in ancient astronomy. More on that later. - Matt Bauer - Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:10 AM RE: Shen Disturbance Hi Jack, The synopsis you posted sounds pretty accurate. It isn't TCM as much as Classical which is what is referred to prior to Mao's standardizing of the medicine through the filters of communism which edited out almost everything suggesting " spirit " . Shen was left by the communists as it refers more to the mind than anything spiritual. Shen is now often used to refer to everything around spirit in TCM, but classically we have many " spirits " some animal like the Po, and some mental like the Shen, and some deeper like the Hun. There are several on this list that could expand on this a lot more than I can, and I hope they do. :-) Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 (480) 991-3650 Jack Sweeney [mojavecowboy] Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:42 PM Chinese Medicine Shen Disturbance Hello: Someone on the TCMental list posted this and would be interested in hearing responses if anyone feels the interest: Regards, Jack " In addition to treating me for a spleen and kidney and qi deficiency with phlegm, my TCM doctor is also been treating me for a shen disturbance. I wasn't quite sure what this was, but he saying that the spirit (shen) is in the blood, and lifts off, and leaves the body during times of abuse and trauma. He says this is the cause of my hyper sensitivity, hyper-vigilance, and has manifested in what western psychology diagnosed as depression, anxiety, and post traumatic stress disorder. I asked him why a shen disturbance would make you more sensitive, as it seems like the less there is of your spirit that stays in your body, the less sensitive you would be, verging on numb. I'd think people would knock into you (physically or emotionally), and you wouldn't even feel it. So why would a shen disturbance make someone super sensitive? He said that it becomes about survival. That we have animal spirits and " spirit " spirits, and a healthy person could have six of them, like six voices, and the animal spirits are more primal voices, and interested in food, sex, and survival, and are consumed with looking out for number one. He says that if something devastating and threatening to your life occurs, you can lose some of the " spirit " spirits, leaving the animal spirits to run the show. The hyper-vigilance is the animal survival instincts in you, super-vigilant to everything happening around you, like abused dogs who cringe and run at every sound. According to him, ideally three spirits can manage six animals, if they're balanced, and work together like a company with three managers. The animal spirits calm down if they're managed. If you develop a shen disturbance from trauma and start to losing some managers, you end up with animal spirits fighting each other, or worried and obsessed, and this can lead to depression or bi-polar, manic depression. Does this make sense? Part of it sounds right, and part of it just sounds airy fairy. Is this TCM? Is this Taoism? I can only find a bit about shen disturbances in various TCM books, and I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find a complete article, or book on them. The doctor said it can take years to cure them which is scary, but I'd like to read and learn more about the process if possible. Is an acupuncturist advanced enough to deal with a shen disturbance? It sounds very frightening, but is it really just another syndrome, or should I be looking for a shen specialist. Is there such a thing, and is so, how would I find one? As usual all you very thoughtful replies have touched me so much, and I'm very grateful for any advice or help. Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 I don't know, but Jack's case doesn't sound like 'classical Chinese medicine' to me. While such authors as Sun Si-miao did talk about spirit possession, and the wu zhi/five minds is a background template in Chinese medicine, what is being described by Jack is an interpretive approach to shamanistic medicine which is not discussed widely in mainstream Chinese medical literature since the Han Dynasty. Such foundational classical texts as the Shang Han Lun, Nan Jing, Jia Yi Jing, Pi Wei Lun or the Wen Bing literature do not discuss these phenomena, and they are the backbone of the traditional medicine. It is true that there was some filtering and reorganization of the medical tradition by the communist government, but we must remember that Chinese medicine was in a very weakened position during the Republican era, and that the communist government basically resurrected Chinese medicine in a format suitable for nationalized medicine. For more on this subject, read Kim Taylor's new book " Medicine of Revolution: in Early Communist China " . On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. wrote: > > The synopsis you posted sounds pretty accurate. It isn't TCM as much > as > Classical which is what is referred to prior to Mao's > standardizing of the medicine through the filters of communism which > edited out almost everything suggesting " spirit " . Shen was left by > the > communists as it refers more to the mind than anything spiritual. > Shen > is now often used to refer to everything around spirit in TCM, but > classically we have many " spirits " some animal like the Po, and some > mental like the Shen, and some deeper like the Hun. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Hello; Thank you all for your comments, they are quite helpful. Will let you know how this person gets on. Regards, Jack --- <zrosenbe wrote: > I don't know, but Jack's case doesn't sound like > 'classical Chinese > medicine' to me. While such authors as Sun Si-miao > did talk about > spirit possession, and the wu zhi/five minds is a > background template > in Chinese medicine, what is being described by Jack > is an interpretive > approach to shamanistic medicine which is not > discussed widely in > mainstream Chinese medical literature since the Han > Dynasty. Such > foundational classical texts as the Shang Han Lun, > Nan Jing, Jia Yi > Jing, Pi Wei Lun or the Wen Bing literature do not > discuss these > phenomena, and they are the backbone of the > traditional medicine. > > It is true that there was some filtering and > reorganization of the > medical tradition by the communist government, but > we must remember > that Chinese medicine was in a very weakened > position during the > Republican era, and that the communist government > basically resurrected > Chinese medicine in a format suitable for > nationalized medicine. For > more on this subject, read Kim Taylor's new book > " Medicine of > Revolution: in Early Communist > China " . > > > On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:10 AM, Christopher Vedeler, > L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > The synopsis you posted sounds pretty accurate.?> It isn't TCM as much > > as > > Classical which is what is > referred to prior to Mao's > > standardizing of the medicine through the filters > of communism which > > edited out almost everything suggesting > " spirit " .?Shen was left by > > the > > communists as it refers more to the mind than > anything spiritual.? > > Shen > > is now often used to refer to everything around > spirit in TCM, but > > classically we have many " spirits " some animal > like the Po, and some > > mental like the Shen, and some deeper like the > Hun. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 hun and po spirits, belong one to the liver-wood the other to the lung-metal. usually those two kind of 'spirits' are being wrote and discussed in the classical chinese medicine as per shen 'spirit' fire- heart. the hypersensitivity it is said that because the hun as left 'wandering' around that should cause the sleep-walking too, while with the po in excess should cause suicide thougths, too. in the treatment of the shen 'spirit' some need to carefully do the diagnosis, because it causes many kind of syndromes, fright, panic, depression and so on. it is mainly a relation between heart and kidney and sure it involves other into it, p.e. gall-bladder, or stomach according the symptoms. well, very in short this would be Luigi Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hello Jack and Christopher, > > Christopher is right that the theories this practitioner suggested to this patient relate to earlier Chinese medicine concepts that themselves come from Taoist Internal Alchemy ideas. This patient would get more information on this subject by reading David Twicken's fine two-part series in Acupuncture Today's August and September, 2004 issues (www.acupuncturetoday.com). David did a good job reviewing the different versions of Hun and Po spirits. > > As far as advice for this patient about if their practitioner is able to handle such a problem, of course that is difficult to tell. I would say though that the concepts stated - regarding the loss of Hun spirits causing the Po to be hypersensitive - show this practitioner has a good understanding of the finer concepts that underlie Chinese traditional medicine and this suggests competence in practice. I would also warn though that attempting to work on such a level is very tricky and that this patient should continue to use their instincts/common sense when deciding how to proceed with treatment. Be hopeful and trusting - but not blind trust. > > For those interested: this subject of Hun and Po spirits really gets to the core of Chinese medicine's early roots that are grounded in Taoist numerology that itself is grounded in ancient astronomy. More on that later. - Matt Bauer > - > Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:10 AM > RE: Shen Disturbance > > > Hi Jack, > > The synopsis you posted sounds pretty accurate. It isn't TCM as much as > Classical which is what is referred to prior to Mao's > standardizing of the medicine through the filters of communism which > edited out almost everything suggesting " spirit " . Shen was left by the > communists as it refers more to the mind than anything spiritual. Shen > is now often used to refer to everything around spirit in TCM, but > classically we have many " spirits " some animal like the Po, and some > mental like the Shen, and some deeper like the Hun. > > There are several on this list that could expand on this a lot more than > I can, and I hope they do. :-) > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > (480) 991-3650 > > > Jack Sweeney [mojavecowboy] > Tuesday, February 22, 2005 5:42 PM > Chinese Medicine > Shen Disturbance > > > Hello: > > Someone on the TCMental list posted this and would be > interested in hearing responses if anyone feels the > interest: > > Regards, Jack > > " In addition to treating me for a spleen and > kidney and qi deficiency with phlegm, my TCM doctor is > also been treating me for a shen disturbance. I > wasn't quite sure what this was, but he saying that > the spirit (shen) is in the blood, and lifts > off, and leaves the body during times of abuse and > trauma. He says this is the cause of my hyper > sensitivity, hyper-vigilance, and has manifested in > what western psychology diagnosed as depression, > anxiety, and post traumatic stress disorder. > > I asked him why a shen disturbance would make you more > sensitive, as it seems like the less there is of your > spirit that stays in your body, the less sensitive you > would be, verging on numb. I'd think > people would knock into you (physically or > emotionally), and you wouldn't even feel it. So why > would a shen disturbance make someone super sensitive? > > He said that it becomes about survival. That we have > animal spirits and " spirit " spirits, and a healthy > person could have six of them, like six voices, and > the animal spirits are more primal voices, and > interested in food, sex, and survival, and are > consumed with looking out for number one. > > He says that if something devastating and threatening > to your life occurs, you can lose some of the " spirit " > spirits, leaving the animal spirits to run the show. > The hyper-vigilance is the animal survival instincts > in you, super-vigilant to everything happening > around you, like abused dogs who cringe and run at > every sound. > > According to him, ideally three spirits can manage six > animals, if they're balanced, and work together like a > company with three managers. The animal spirits calm > down if they're managed. If you develop a shen > disturbance from trauma and start to losing some > managers, you end up with animal spirits fighting each > other, or worried and obsessed, and this can lead to > depression or bi-polar, manic depression. > > Does this make sense? Part of it sounds right, and > part of it just sounds airy fairy. Is this TCM? Is > this Taoism? I can only find a bit about shen > disturbances in various TCM books, and I'm > wondering if anyone knows where I might find a > complete article, or book on them. The doctor said it > can take years to cure them which is scary, but I'd > like to read and learn more about the process if > possible. > > Is an acupuncturist advanced enough to deal with a > shen disturbance? It sounds very frightening, but is > it really just another syndrome, or should I be > looking for a shen specialist. Is there such a thing, > and is so, how would I find one? > > As usual all you very thoughtful replies have touched > me so much, and I'm very grateful for any advice or > help. > > > > > > > > Mail - You care about security. So do we. > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > > _____ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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