Discussion on how Are Thoresen treats Xu (DEF) and Shi (Excess)

[Guest guest]

Dear Colleagues,

 

Are [Thoresen] and I have had off-list discussion on the importance of

recognising and treating the ROOT rather than the BRANCH in TCM.

 

Treating the BRANCH is OK in the short-term (and is necessary in

severe cases) but Are believes that failure to recognise and treat the

ROOT can have severe sequels in the longterm.

 

Are says that he and several other colleagues have seen cancer

develop in animals where previous Shi (Excesses, BRANCHES) were

treated without treating the underlying Xu (ROOT).

 

I misunderstood some of Are's methods until he cleared them up for

me. In the process, I have learned much from the discussions.

 

Therefore, we have decided to put these discussions on the Lists and

invite your comments on them.

 

Are believes firmly that most symptoms (BRANCHES, even branches

that MANIFEST as Shi-Excesses, or Stasis, or Bi, or Phlegm, etc) can

have a number of underlying ROOT causes in different patients, but in

an IINDIVIDUAL patient, there usually is just ONE underlying ROOT

cause. In diagnosis it is vital to detect that ROOT cause and treat it.

 

The ROOT cause is almost invariably Xu (Def) in ONE of the Channel-

Organ Systems. Every Excess almost always has an underlying Xu that

allows it to remain longer than it should.

 

Are believes that many colleagues treat the Excess (BRANCH) because

it is easier to detect, but fail to detect (and treat) the much more

important Xu. The presenting S & Ss may disappear after treating the

BRANCH. However, allowing the ROOT (Xu) to remain untreated

guarantees later trouble - often cancer.

 

In Are's experience, a few specific diseases invariably had the same

ROOT cause in all cases that he saw.

 

For example, in epilepsy, Are invariably finds KI Xu as the ROOT cause.

In MS, HD and Horton's Disease, he invariably finds LV Xu as the

ROOT cause.

 

I wrote to Are:

> Metal (LU) controls Wood (LV). So, would you use LU points to treat HD,

> MS and Horton's Disease? For example, if LV Xu is the root of HD, why

> do you not use a LU point, such as LU11 (Metal Wood Pt) or LU08 (Metal

> Metal Pt) instead of LV03 to treat it?

 

Are replied:

> NO, Phil; that is NOT correct. You misunderstand my meaning (as I fear

> that many others do, who try my methods). When I say that LV is the

> ROOT cause of HD, MS and Horton's Disease, I mean that LV Xu (DEF) is

> the ROOT cause of those conditions. In LV Xu (as in those cases), I

> treat LV direct, for example at LV03.

 

> In different conditions that manifest (BRANCH) as a LV Shi (Excess,

> which is much easier to detect), I would treat LU, for example LU11

> (Wood Pt) or LU08 (Metal Pt). The principle of treating an Excess is to

> Tonify the Ko-Grandmother Channel-Organ System. This will bring Control

> (weaken) to the Excessive (unruly) Grandson.

 

I wrote:

> [in TCM,] KI Governs Brain.

 

Are replied:

> This is not [fully] correct because ALL meridians enter the brain. In

> Epilepsy I find this to be true. Epilepsy is a special example that

> agrees with the TCM theory] that KI Governs Brain. However, in other

> brain problems it is not so; Xu of a meridian other than KI may be the

> ROOT cause.

 

I wrote:

> In epilepsy, which you attribute to KI Xu in all cases, do you treat KI

direct in ALL cases? Which KI points do you use?

 

Are replied:

> Yes. In dogs, I use KI01

 

Are, if KI Xu is the ROOT of epilepsy, why do you use KI01, the Wood/

Son/SEDATION Pt of KI? Why not use the Metal/Mother/

TONIFICATION Pt, KI07?

 

I asked also:

> Are, can you give a few more examples of DEFS and EXCESSES that you

> see often, and discuss the points that you use to treat them?

 

Are replied:

> In mammary cancer, I see ST Excess (Earth), and treat it by needling

> the LV03 (the Earth Pt of Wood). That is >90% effective.

 

Are, in mammary (or ST) cancer do you also see a LV Def? Is that why

you treat LV03, or is it that you use the Wood od Wood Pt to bring

control to the Excess in Earth?

 

> In Elbow arthrosis I usually see LU Def, and LI Shi (Excess). I treat

> that with LU07 (the Luo-Passage Pt connecting LU & LI).

 

> In azoturia, I see a LV Def and a ST Excess. I treat LV01 (Ting/Wood Pt).

 

Are, why LV01, and not LV03, as in mammary cancer, which has the

same background (LV Def with ST Excess)?

 

> In cervical cancer I see a KI Excess, and a TH Def. I treat TH02

> (Water Pt)

 

We would like to ask the group for comment on these examples.

 

Also, how many of you have seen cancer develop in any patients after

you treated an Excess without specifically identifying and treating the

underlying ROOT (Xu, Def).

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

wrote:

" ... Are believes that many colleagues treat the Excess (BRANCH) because

it is easier to detect, but fail to detect (and treat) the much more

important Xu. The presenting S & Ss may disappear after treating the

BRANCH. However, allowing the ROOT (Xu) to remain untreated

guarantees later trouble - often cancer.... "

 

Having reservations about cancer causation I would like to say that

more than just trouble which is an extension of disease process till

that time, one can actually transition to a brand new illness which

has little resemblance to the original malady.

 

In that sense 5 Shu Horary usage, if taken at tide, can deliver the

spectacular turn around every healer lives for. But if the wrong

open point is used, or the right one for the wrong element diagnosed,

there is the devil to pay.

 

More, I have often read a great deal about the mono-elemental illness,

but have seen little of the beast.

 

What presents is usually a bi-elemental malady which has made home

and shows little intent of leaving, meanwhile leaving th option

open to becoming a tertiary presentation.

 

In which case, at least, one has to apply a " tonify this " with a

" reduce that " approach.

 

Cast this in 5 shu usage, one will, in the very common " SP xu

with UB excess package " seen mainly in men who eat the glutton and

lose libido, if treating say between 3 to 5 PM, tone Mother Fire point

UB 60, and deplete Son Wood point UB 65.

 

Now the rub. If someone only does the one, tones SP, and does not allay

Water yang, this is what will happen:

 

1. SP toned, Water restrained, matters aggravate.

2. Or, SP toned, Metal toned as Son, Wood restrained, SP in trouble.

 

Or suppose only the Bladder symptoms are addressed, dysuria, dribbling,

low back, some vertigo, hair fall, God love the dentist. In which case

the Water toned will empower the Son, who keeps coming up whatever one

does. Wood Son has a ball and ungratefully errant, halters SP, to the

chagrin of everyone concerned.

 

For which reason I stay clear of 5 Shu application, using it only in

well recognized patterns, and then only when I am fresh and able to do

justice to a complex, involute d pattern.

 

And I have been using 5 Shu forever.

 

I bet the 5 Shu grid was a woman in past birth.

 

Dr Holmes

www.acu-free.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Phil and Are,

Firstly, in humans, people come to your clinic with a specific problem

and if that problem is not addressed, then they will not come back for

further treatment (generally). So branch treatments are always important.

Also i believe that if branch manifestations are not cleared then they

can create severe on going problems in further compensations and

adjustments in the body. Correct treatment of blood pressure is a good

example of this.

This is why staged treatments are always important as well. Treat

predominately what the patient is complaining about with differing

degrees of root support, till you reach back to the core then ongoing

constitutional support in root treatments.

Traditional Japanes style which i incorporate in my treatments, always

begins with acupuncture root treatments of the most yin organ system,

followed by draining of any remaining excess system as the branch,

before doing anything else.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Further, is the whole process of living entailing using up of our Yuan

and Jing Qi, and slowly (or not so slowly) draining our kidneys until

the point of separation and ensueing death? Are we all born with our own

pattern of weaknesses and excesses at birth? The idea of ongoing

tonification to modify of control the pattern of decline as we age is

one of the traditional japanese ideas as well ie small amounts of herbs

over many years. Or substances such as deer antler, ginseng, qi tonics

etc used in the right season to tonify underlying weaknesses before they

manifest as disorder.

So i think that deficiencies develop all the time with the processes of

life.

When i encounter cancers, they always have a severe toxic etc overlay on

a severe underlying weakness.

Anita

One must treat the excess with always treating the weakness, equally

important at the outset.

 

 

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