Guest guest Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Hello All; I have viewed an avertisement for a school in California called the Institute of Chinese Herbology.... has anyone used them before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Interesting that they have an arrrangement with PIHMA for usage as a part of their herbal educational program. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Nicholas " <solomon >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > > Question for Everyone - Schools >Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:32:09 -0900 > > Hello All; > I have viewed an avertisement for a school in California called the >Institute of Chinese Herbology.... has anyone used them before? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Hi Nicholas and Mike, Ken Morris is a good friend who specializes in herb organoleptic identification and herb formulation. Ken studied CM at a San Francisco college and travels to Asia regularly. His school is not specifically a pathway to an L.Ac as he does not teach acupuncture nor is his school accredited. He teaches herb id, function and formulation. Many people have gone through Ken's credentialing program before going on to various pathways to becoming licensed ... via going to an accredited school or studying with a longtime practicing practitioner. I've known a couple of people personally who went through Ken's program and found it extremely useful. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen > Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:33:18 +0000 > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > Interesting that they have an arrrangement with PIHMA for usage as a part of > their herbal educational program. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " Nicholas " <solomon > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > > Question for Everyone - Schools > >Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:32:09 -0900 > > > > Hello All; > > I have viewed an avertisement for a school in California called the > >Institute of Chinese Herbology.... has anyone used them before? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Emmanuel: How does one contact or find out more about Ken? Regards, Jack --- Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: > > Hi Nicholas and Mike, > > Ken Morris is a good friend who specializes in herb > organoleptic > identification and herb formulation. Ken studied CM > at a San Francisco > college and travels to Asia regularly. His school > is not specifically a > pathway to an L.Ac as he does not teach acupuncture > nor is his school > accredited. He teaches herb id, function and > formulation. Many people have > gone through Ken's credentialing program before > going on to various pathways > to becoming licensed ... via going to an accredited > school or studying with > a longtime practicing practitioner. I've known a > couple of people > personally who went through Ken's program and found > it extremely useful. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > > Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:33:18 +0000 > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > > > Interesting that they have an arrrangement with > PIHMA for usage as a part > of > > their herbal educational program. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > " Nicholas " <solomon > > > > Chinese Medicine > > >To: > <Chinese Medicine > > > > Question for Everyone - Schools > > >Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:32:09 -0900 > > > > > > Hello All; > > > I have viewed an avertisement for a school in > California called the > > >Institute of Chinese Herbology.... has anyone > used them before? > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Emmanuel, Thanks for the note. I have been looking at another school in CA called the Five Branches Institute. They offer a MS in TCM. They are licensed by the Cali, and I can apply for financial aide...... that is always a big plus.... Have you heard of this school? Nicholas - " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen <Chinese Medicine > Monday, February 21, 2005 5:40 PM RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > Hi Nicholas and Mike, > > Ken Morris is a good friend who specializes in herb organoleptic > identification and herb formulation. Ken studied CM at a San Francisco > college and travels to Asia regularly. His school is not specifically a > pathway to an L.Ac as he does not teach acupuncture nor is his school > accredited. He teaches herb id, function and formulation. Many people > have > gone through Ken's credentialing program before going on to various > pathways > to becoming licensed ... via going to an accredited school or studying > with > a longtime practicing practitioner. I've known a couple of people > personally who went through Ken's program and found it extremely useful. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > >> Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:33:18 +0000 >> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 >> RE: Question for Everyone - Schools >> >> Interesting that they have an arrrangement with PIHMA for usage as a part > of >> their herbal educational program. >> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >> >> > " Nicholas " <solomon >> >Chinese Medicine >> ><Chinese Medicine > >> > Question for Everyone - Schools >> >Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:32:09 -0900 >> > >> > Hello All; >> > I have viewed an avertisement for a school in California called the >> >Institute of Chinese Herbology.... has anyone used them before? >> > > > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Hi Nicholas, You seem to be focusing on San Francisco Bay Area schools of Chinese medicine. First you looked at an unaccredited Oakland school and then at an accredited Santa Cruz school. You could visit the Five Branches Institute and also get a tour of San Francisco's American College of TCM. See: http://www.actcm.edu. Another college is in Oakland at http://www.acchs.edu/ called Academy of Chinese Culture and Health Sciences. I've worked at ACTCM in SF in 1988 and currently manage a company in SF just north of where the school is located. I can say that each school has something a bit different to offer. You might also consider a trip to see at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in San Diego for a tour of that school. If I were you, I would visit schools and speak to faculty and to students to see what resonates with you. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen > Emmanuel, Thanks for the note. I have been looking at another school in CA called the Five Branches Institute. They offer a MS in TCM. They are licensed by the Cali, and I can apply for financial aide...... that is always a big plus.... > > Have you heard of this school? > > Nicholas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Thanks for the insight Emmanuel..... I was even considering studying abroad.... any recommendations for that? I do speak Japanese fluently (I teach it at the local highschool and college). I can read and write Chinese, however, I do have problems with the pronunciation. It is quiet different than that of Japanese. Any help would be great. Nicholas - Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:24 PM Re: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools Hi Nicholas, You seem to be focusing on San Francisco Bay Area schools of Chinese medicine. First you looked at an unaccredited Oakland school and then at an accredited Santa Cruz school. You could visit the Five Branches Institute and also get a tour of San Francisco's American College of TCM. See: http://www.actcm.edu. Another college is in Oakland at http://www.acchs.edu/ called Academy of Chinese Culture and Health Sciences. I've worked at ACTCM in SF in 1988 and currently manage a company in SF just north of where the school is located. I can say that each school has something a bit different to offer. You might also consider a trip to see at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in San Diego for a tour of that school. If I were you, I would visit schools and speak to faculty and to students to see what resonates with you. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen > Emmanuel, Thanks for the note. I have been looking at another school in CA called the Five Branches Institute. They offer a MS in TCM. They are licensed by the Cali, and I can apply for financial aide...... that is always a big plus.... > > Have you heard of this school? > > Nicholas http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 In all fairness there is also AIMC (http://www.aic-berkeley.edu/) in Berkeley and UEWM in Sunnyvale (http://www.uewm.edu/index.asp). The Bay area has it share of schools. San Diego has a very nice climate and PCOM is good (Class of 95'). The LA area also has a lot of schools over a dozen. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools >Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:24:53 -0000 > > >Hi Nicholas, > >You seem to be focusing on San Francisco Bay Area schools of Chinese >medicine. First you looked at an unaccredited Oakland school and >then at an accredited Santa Cruz school. You could visit the Five >Branches Institute and also get a tour of San Francisco's American >College of TCM. See: http://www.actcm.edu. Another college is in >Oakland at http://www.acchs.edu/ called Academy of Chinese Culture >and Health Sciences. I've worked at ACTCM in SF in 1988 and >currently manage a company in SF just north of where the school is >located. I can say that each school has something a bit different to >offer. You might also consider a trip to see at >Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in San Diego for a tour of that >school. If I were you, I would visit schools and speak to faculty >and to students to see what resonates with you. > >Respectfully, >Emmanuel Segmen > > > > Emmanuel, Thanks for the note. I have been looking at another >school in CA called the Five Branches Institute. They offer a MS in >TCM. They are licensed by the Cali, and I can apply for financial >aide...... that is always a big plus.... > > > > Have you heard of this school? > > > > Nicholas > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Hi Nicholas I believe that what makes so difficult to study is primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven with this, the cultural barrier. Most CM texts written in English by Chinese native-speakers are horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking about the odd abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm talking about huge swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so wrong that they totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm talking about whole chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm talking about books that *prevent* people from undersanding Chinese medicine! Many of these texts also present versions of Chinese medicine that are highly simplified - maybe partly for pedagogical reasons, but also partly because of the absence of a widely accepted fully-glossed technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though Wiseman's glossary is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). So you turn to texts written by westerners. These are mostly very clear, but how did these individuals learn the subject? Well, most of them learned it by reading the horrendously translated books above! And in the process had to insert their own (often very peculiar) understandings to make sense of the mayhem. This is the maze of Chinese medicine. Some people take what they can from these English texts (either written by the Chinese native speakers or the westerners) and go to clinic and develop their own form of Chinese medicine. I'm not going to criticize that. I personally am more of a purist and prefer to learn an art in the *traditional* way and only when (if) I one day become a master, then try to develop my own interpretation. Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long arduous route. It slows you down immensely. But every time I study a passage in Chinese (and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to translate) the meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the pure dew from heaven. If you already have *some* linguistic skills in Chinese, for heaven's sake use them! You're already one step up on this ladder, so capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are truly blessed! Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly improve on this. I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send you some notes on making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you can use your Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in Chinese, not English. This will open up to you the huge mine of modern Zhongyi literature as well as facilitate your digging into the older classical works. All the best. David Gordon Chinese Medicine , " Nicholas " <solomon@a...> wrote: > > Thanks for the insight Emmanuel..... > I was even considering studying abroad.... any recommendations for that? I do speak Japanese fluently (I teach it at the local highschool and college). I can read and write Chinese, however, I do have problems with the pronunciation. It is quiet different than that of Japanese. > Any help would be great. > > Nicholas > - > Emmanuel Segmen > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:24 PM > Re: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > > > Hi Nicholas, > > You seem to be focusing on San Francisco Bay Area schools of Chinese > medicine. First you looked at an unaccredited Oakland school and > then at an accredited Santa Cruz school. You could visit the Five > Branches Institute and also get a tour of San Francisco's American > College of TCM. See: http://www.actcm.edu. Another college is in > Oakland at http://www.acchs.edu/ called Academy of Chinese Culture > and Health Sciences. I've worked at ACTCM in SF in 1988 and > currently manage a company in SF just north of where the school is > located. I can say that each school has something a bit different to > offer. You might also consider a trip to see at > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in San Diego for a tour of that > school. If I were you, I would visit schools and speak to faculty > and to students to see what resonates with you. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > > > Emmanuel, Thanks for the note. I have been looking at another > school in CA called the Five Branches Institute. They offer a MS in > TCM. They are licensed by the Cali, and I can apply for financial > aide...... that is always a big plus.... > > > > Have you heard of this school? > > > > Nicholas To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > -- ---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Hi David, I like what you have written about the difficulty of learning Chinese medicine. There is one other option that you didn't write however. That is to learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who speaks English. I can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and I can't speak Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel I got a pretty decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese instructors teaching in America speaking English. Some of my instructors are the best of the best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left China, not because they were poor doctors, but because they were excellent doctors who wanted better social and economic opportunities. They told me that the Chinese medicine education in the US is in many ways better than in China. Also, there are a number of English translations that are quite accurate and quite good. Understanding the cultural and philosophical differences is something I came into the medicine with a pretty good understanding from my Oriental philosophy background. Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way to learn Chinese medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is necessary in order to truly understand the medicine and become " a master " . I personally believe that becoming a master involves personal cultivation to where one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately diagnose through the pulses and find the points the same way they where discovered in the first place. In a sense, even the best of the Chinese books is still only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. Only by being with a patient and having enough education and background to forget all your education and background and simply treat from a Zen like space is one in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese medicine IMO. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 (480) 991-3650 David Gordon [junhengclinic] Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM Chinese Medicine Re: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools Hi Nicholas I believe that what makes so difficult to study is primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven with this, the cultural barrier. Most CM texts written in English by Chinese native-speakers are horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking about the odd abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm talking about huge swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so wrong that they totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm talking about whole chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm talking about books that *prevent* people from undersanding Chinese medicine! Many of these texts also present versions of Chinese medicine that are highly simplified - maybe partly for pedagogical reasons, but also partly because of the absence of a widely accepted fully-glossed technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though Wiseman's glossary is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). So you turn to texts written by westerners. These are mostly very clear, but how did these individuals learn the subject? Well, most of them learned it by reading the horrendously translated books above! And in the process had to insert their own (often very peculiar) understandings to make sense of the mayhem. This is the maze of Chinese medicine. Some people take what they can from these English texts (either written by the Chinese native speakers or the westerners) and go to clinic and develop their own form of Chinese medicine. I'm not going to criticize that. I personally am more of a purist and prefer to learn an art in the *traditional* way and only when (if) I one day become a master, then try to develop my own interpretation. Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long arduous route. It slows you down immensely. But every time I study a passage in Chinese (and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to translate) the meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the pure dew from heaven. If you already have *some* linguistic skills in Chinese, for heaven's sake use them! You're already one step up on this ladder, so capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are truly blessed! Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly improve on this. I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send you some notes on making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you can use your Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in Chinese, not English. This will open up to you the huge mine of modern Zhongyi literature as well as facilitate your digging into the older classical works. All the best. David Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 I have been led to understand from my TCM instructors that the meaning of the Chinese language through the dynasty periods changes so that even they had to study the " language of the period " in order to understand the translation of the older texts.Just learning Chinese is not going to give one the security of translating the meaning of the texts at any period with any certainity.Does anyone else know if this is true?Sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA,CVH > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " <ckvedeler >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:54:35 -0700 > >Hi David, > >I like what you have written about the difficulty of learning Chinese >medicine. > >There is one other option that you didn't write however. That is to >learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who speaks English. I >can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and I can't speak >Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel I got a pretty >decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese instructors teaching in >America speaking English. Some of my instructors are the best of the >best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left China, not because they >were poor doctors, but because they were excellent doctors who wanted >better social and economic opportunities. They told me that the Chinese >medicine education in the US is in many ways better than in China. > >Also, there are a number of English translations that are quite accurate >and quite good. Understanding the cultural and philosophical >differences is something I came into the medicine with a pretty good >understanding from my Oriental philosophy background. > >Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way to learn Chinese >medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is necessary in order to >truly understand the medicine and become " a master " . I personally >believe that becoming a master involves personal cultivation to where >one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately diagnose through the >pulses and find the points the same way they where discovered in the >first place. In a sense, even the best of the Chinese books is still >only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. Only by being with a >patient and having enough education and background to forget all your >education and background and simply treat from a Zen like space is one >in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese medicine IMO. > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. >Oasis Acupuncture >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte >Suite D-35 >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >(480) 991-3650 > > >David Gordon [junhengclinic] >Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM >Chinese Medicine >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > > >Hi Nicholas > >I believe that what makes so difficult to study is >primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven with this, the >cultural barrier. > >Most CM texts written in English by Chinese native-speakers are >horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking about the odd >abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm talking about huge >swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so wrong that they >totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm talking about whole >chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm talking about >books that *prevent* people from undersanding Chinese medicine! > >Many of these texts also present versions of Chinese medicine that >are highly simplified - maybe partly for pedagogical reasons, but >also partly because of the absence of a widely accepted fully-glossed >technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though Wiseman's glossary >is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). > >So you turn to texts written by westerners. These are mostly very >clear, but how did these individuals learn the subject? Well, most of >them learned it by reading the horrendously translated books above! >And in the process had to insert their own (often very peculiar) >understandings to make sense of the mayhem. > >This is the maze of Chinese medicine. > >Some people take what they can from these English texts (either >written by the Chinese native speakers or the westerners) and go to >clinic and develop their own form of Chinese medicine. I'm not going >to criticize that. > >I personally am more of a purist and prefer to learn an art in the >*traditional* way and only when (if) I one day become a master, then >try to develop my own interpretation. > >Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long arduous route. It >slows you down immensely. But every time I study a passage in Chinese >(and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to translate) the >meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the pure dew from >heaven. > >If you already have *some* linguistic skills in Chinese, for heaven's >sake use them! You're already one step up on this ladder, so >capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are truly blessed! > >Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly improve on this. >I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send you some notes on >making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. > >So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you can use your >Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in Chinese, not English. >This will open up to you the huge mine of modern Zhongyi literature >as well as facilitate your digging into the older classical works. > >All the best. > >David Gordon > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Anyone interested in Joining my dynamic team at this Magnificent location. A fromer 19th Century Rectory. Please contact me on 0035321 4866607 Many Thanks Deirdre - Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 27, 2005 1:59 PM RE: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > I have been led to understand from my TCM instructors that the meaning of > the Chinese language through the dynasty periods changes so that even they > had to study the " language of the period " in order to understand the > translation of the older texts.Just learning Chinese is not going to give > one the security of translating the meaning of the texts at any period with > any certainity.Does anyone else know if this is > true?Sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA,CVH > > > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " <ckvedeler > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:54:35 -0700 > > > >Hi David, > > > >I like what you have written about the difficulty of learning Chinese > >medicine. > > > >There is one other option that you didn't write however. That is to > >learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who speaks English. I > >can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and I can't speak > >Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel I got a pretty > >decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese instructors teaching in > >America speaking English. Some of my instructors are the best of the > >best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left China, not because they > >were poor doctors, but because they were excellent doctors who wanted > >better social and economic opportunities. They told me that the Chinese > >medicine education in the US is in many ways better than in China. > > > >Also, there are a number of English translations that are quite accurate > >and quite good. Understanding the cultural and philosophical > >differences is something I came into the medicine with a pretty good > >understanding from my Oriental philosophy background. > > > >Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way to learn Chinese > >medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is necessary in order to > >truly understand the medicine and become " a master " . I personally > >believe that becoming a master involves personal cultivation to where > >one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately diagnose through the > >pulses and find the points the same way they where discovered in the > >first place. In a sense, even the best of the Chinese books is still > >only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. Only by being with a > >patient and having enough education and background to forget all your > >education and background and simply treat from a Zen like space is one > >in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese medicine IMO. > > > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >Oasis Acupuncture > >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >Suite D-35 > >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >(480) 991-3650 > > > > > >David Gordon [junhengclinic] > >Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools > > > > > > > >Hi Nicholas > > > >I believe that what makes so difficult to study is > >primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven with this, the > >cultural barrier. > > > >Most CM texts written in English by Chinese native-speakers are > >horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking about the odd > >abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm talking about huge > >swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so wrong that they > >totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm talking about whole > >chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm talking about > >books that *prevent* people from undersanding Chinese medicine! > > > >Many of these texts also present versions of Chinese medicine that > >are highly simplified - maybe partly for pedagogical reasons, but > >also partly because of the absence of a widely accepted fully-glossed > >technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though Wiseman's glossary > >is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). > > > >So you turn to texts written by westerners. These are mostly very > >clear, but how did these individuals learn the subject? Well, most of > >them learned it by reading the horrendously translated books above! > >And in the process had to insert their own (often very peculiar) > >understandings to make sense of the mayhem. > > > >This is the maze of Chinese medicine. > > > >Some people take what they can from these English texts (either > >written by the Chinese native speakers or the westerners) and go to > >clinic and develop their own form of Chinese medicine. I'm not going > >to criticize that. > > > >I personally am more of a purist and prefer to learn an art in the > >*traditional* way and only when (if) I one day become a master, then > >try to develop my own interpretation. > > > >Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long arduous route. It > >slows you down immensely. But every time I study a passage in Chinese > >(and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to translate) the > >meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the pure dew from > >heaven. > > > >If you already have *some* linguistic skills in Chinese, for heaven's > >sake use them! You're already one step up on this ladder, so > >capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are truly blessed! > > > >Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly improve on this. > >I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send you some notes on > >making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. > > > >So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you can use your > >Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in Chinese, not English. > >This will open up to you the huge mine of modern Zhongyi literature > >as well as facilitate your digging into the older classical works. > > > >All the best. > > > >David Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 It is not true There are three main languages: guwen (language of old times BC-AD some of chinese classic esp. medicine written on this language),wenyan (written language of scholars and educated people used for almost 2 thousand years almost without any big changes) and baihua (modern language)There are some defferences between three of them, but educated people (university level)with some little effort can understand at least wenyan, classic language. yuri --- Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote: > I have been led to understand from my TCM > instructors that the meaning of > the Chinese language through the dynasty periods > changes so that even they > had to study the " language of the period " in order > to understand the > translation of the older texts.Just learning Chinese > is not going to give > one the security of translating the meaning of the > texts at any period with > any certainity.Does anyone else know if this is > true?Sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA,CVH > > > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " > <ckvedeler > > > Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - > Schools > >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:54:35 -0700 > > > >Hi David, > > > >I like what you have written about the difficulty > of learning Chinese > >medicine. > > > >There is one other option that you didn't write > however. That is to > >learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who > speaks English. I > >can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and > I can't speak > >Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel > I got a pretty > >decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese > instructors teaching in > >America speaking English. Some of my instructors > are the best of the > >best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left > China, not because they > >were poor doctors, but because they were excellent > doctors who wanted > >better social and economic opportunities. They > told me that the Chinese > >medicine education in the US is in many ways better > than in China. > > > >Also, there are a number of English translations > that are quite accurate > >and quite good. Understanding the cultural and > philosophical > >differences is something I came into the medicine > with a pretty good > >understanding from my Oriental philosophy > background. > > > >Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way > to learn Chinese > >medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is > necessary in order to > >truly understand the medicine and become " a > master " . I personally > >believe that becoming a master involves personal > cultivation to where > >one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately > diagnose through the > >pulses and find the points the same way they where > discovered in the > >first place. In a sense, even the best of the > Chinese books is still > >only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. > Only by being with a > >patient and having enough education and background > to forget all your > >education and background and simply treat from a > Zen like space is one > >in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese > medicine IMO. > > > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >Oasis Acupuncture > >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >Suite D-35 > >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >(480) 991-3650 > > > > > >David Gordon > [junhengclinic] > >Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - > Schools > > > > > > > >Hi Nicholas > > > >I believe that what makes so > difficult to study is > >primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven > with this, the > >cultural barrier. > > > >Most CM texts written in English by Chinese > native-speakers are > >horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking > about the odd > >abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm > talking about huge > >swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so > wrong that they > >totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm > talking about whole > >chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm > talking about > >books that *prevent* people from undersanding > Chinese medicine! > > > >Many of these texts also present versions of > Chinese medicine that > >are highly simplified - maybe partly for > pedagogical reasons, but > >also partly because of the absence of a widely > accepted fully-glossed > >technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though > Wiseman's glossary > >is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). > > > >So you turn to texts written by westerners. These > are mostly very > >clear, but how did these individuals learn the > subject? Well, most of > >them learned it by reading the horrendously > translated books above! > >And in the process had to insert their own (often > very peculiar) > >understandings to make sense of the mayhem. > > > >This is the maze of Chinese medicine. > > > >Some people take what they can from these English > texts (either > >written by the Chinese native speakers or the > westerners) and go to > >clinic and develop their own form of Chinese > medicine. I'm not going > >to criticize that. > > > >I personally am more of a purist and prefer to > learn an art in the > >*traditional* way and only when (if) I one day > become a master, then > >try to develop my own interpretation. > > > >Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long > arduous route. It > >slows you down immensely. But every time I study a > passage in Chinese > >(and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to > translate) the > >meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the > pure dew from > >heaven. > > > >If you already have *some* linguistic skills in > Chinese, for heaven's > >sake use them! You're already one step up on this > ladder, so > >capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are > truly blessed! > > > >Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly > improve on this. > >I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send > you some notes on > >making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. > > > >So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you > can use your > >Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in > Chinese, not English. > >This will open up to you the huge mine of modern > Zhongyi literature > >as well as facilitate your digging into the older > classical works. > > > >All the best. > > > >David Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Nicholas: If you speak Japanese and read and write Chinese, consider Taiwan, a former Japanese colony that still shows Japanese influence. Taiwan has retained much more of China's traditions, from the traditional characters to a more traditional approach to TCM, reflected in Wiseman and Ye's dictionary. Taiwan never experienced the Cultural Revolution, which decimated a good deal of China's knowledge and traditions. Use all of your languages to the utmost. The best version of the Neijing available in China was edited by a group of Japanese scholars and printed in traditional characters. Forums such as this in English give you a broader, international perspective. Read the texts for yourself, if possible. Classical Chinese can be interpreted in many ways, with subtle differences in meaning. Bad translations notwithstanding, many Chinese today simply " don't get " the meaning of many of the classics. There are many translations of the Yi Jing (Zhou Yi or I Ching) from classical to contemporary Chinese (bai hua editions), which clearly miss the mark. Many educated Chinese say they can't understand the Yi Jing. Read the classics for yourself and interpret them in light of your own experience, work towards that Zen experience. China has a number of programs designed for foreigners in the universities of traditional medicine, with English as the language of instruction. Guangzhou, Nanjing, Shanghai, Beijing have them. I can't speak about these. If you can find a good Chinese doctor who was trained by his or her parents, that would be ideal. But it takes time to find a good doctor, and then to find a good doctor who is willing to teach you. Such doctors have the benefit of learning within the family tradition, which may go back generations. Don't worry so much about pronunciation if you can make yourself understood. One of the brightest scholars of classical Chinese that I knew couldn't correctly pronounce basic sounds. Hope that helps, Jack > " Nicholas " > <solomon@a...> wrote: > > > > Thanks for the insight Emmanuel..... > > I was even considering studying abroad.... any > recommendations for > that? I do speak Japanese fluently (I teach it at > the local > highschool and college). I can read and write > Chinese, however, I do > have problems with the pronunciation. It is quiet > different than that > of Japanese. > > Any help would be great. > > > > Nicholas > > - > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Chinese Medicine > > > Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:24 PM > > Re: RE: Question for Everyone - > Schools > > > > > > > > Hi Nicholas, > > > > You seem to be focusing on San Francisco Bay > Area schools of > Chinese > > medicine. First you looked at an unaccredited > Oakland school and > > then at an accredited Santa Cruz school. You > could visit the > Five > > Branches Institute and also get a tour of San > Francisco's > American > > College of TCM. See: http://www.actcm.edu. > Another college is in > > Oakland at http://www.acchs.edu/ called Academy > of Chinese > Culture > > and Health Sciences. I've worked at ACTCM in SF > in 1988 and > > currently manage a company in SF just north of > where the school > is > > located. I can say that each school has > something a bit > different to > > offer. You might also consider a trip to see > at > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in San > Diego for a tour of > that > > school. If I were you, I would visit schools > and speak to > faculty > > and to students to see what resonates with you. > > > > > Respectfully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > > > > > Emmanuel, Thanks for the note. I have been > looking at another > > school in CA called the Five Branches > Institute. They offer a MS > in > > TCM. They are licensed by the Cali, and I can > apply for > financial > > aide...... that is always a big plus.... > > > > > > Have you heard of this school? > > > > > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it > into this web link > page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss > TCM with other > academics, > === message truncated === Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Yes, but the gu wen is something else. Very difficult, if you ask me. University students first get at least one course in gu wen, before they start reading the SHL or some other classic. Most do not like the gu wen course, and most still cannot read the classics by themselves after that course. It's really hard to learn, imo. It's like learning Latin,which is also a dead language. Grammar is very different, and of course also the characters. Tom. ---- leah tynkova 02/28/05 02:26:29 Chinese Medicine RE: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools It is not true There are three main languages: guwen (language of old times BC-AD some of chinese classic esp. medicine written on this language),wenyan (written language of scholars and educated people used for almost 2 thousand years almost without any big changes) and baihua (modern language)There are some defferences between three of them, but educated people (university level)with some little effort can understand at least wenyan, classic language. yuri --- Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic wrote: > I have been led to understand from my TCM > instructors that the meaning of > the Chinese language through the dynasty periods > changes so that even they > had to study the " language of the period " in order > to understand the > translation of the older texts.Just learning Chinese > is not going to give > one the security of translating the meaning of the > texts at any period with > any certainity.Does anyone else know if this is > true?Sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA,CVH > > > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " > <ckvedeler > > > Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - > Schools > >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:54:35 -0700 > > > >Hi David, > > > >I like what you have written about the difficulty > of learning Chinese > >medicine. > > > >There is one other option that you didn't write > however. That is to > >learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who > speaks English. I > >can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and > I can't speak > >Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel > I got a pretty > >decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese > instructors teaching in > >America speaking English. Some of my instructors > are the best of the > >best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left > China, not because they > >were poor doctors, but because they were excellent > doctors who wanted > >better social and economic opportunities. They > told me that the Chinese > >medicine education in the US is in many ways better > than in China. > > > >Also, there are a number of English translations > that are quite accurate > >and quite good. Understanding the cultural and > philosophical > >differences is something I came into the medicine > with a pretty good > >understanding from my Oriental philosophy > background. > > > >Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way > to learn Chinese > >medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is > necessary in order to > >truly understand the medicine and become " a > master " . I personally > >believe that becoming a master involves personal > cultivation to where > >one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately > diagnose through the > >pulses and find the points the same way they where > discovered in the > >first place. In a sense, even the best of the > Chinese books is still > >only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. > Only by being with a > >patient and having enough education and background > to forget all your > >education and background and simply treat from a > Zen like space is one > >in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese > medicine IMO. > > > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > >Oasis Acupuncture > >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > >Suite D-35 > >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > >(480) 991-3650 > > > > > >David Gordon > [junhengclinic] > >Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - > Schools > > > > > > > >Hi Nicholas > > > >I believe that what makes so > difficult to study is > >primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven > with this, the > >cultural barrier. > > > >Most CM texts written in English by Chinese > native-speakers are > >horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking > about the odd > >abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm > talking about huge > >swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so > wrong that they > >totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm > talking about whole > >chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm > talking about > >books that *prevent* people from undersanding > Chinese medicine! > > > >Many of these texts also present versions of > Chinese medicine that > >are highly simplified - maybe partly for > pedagogical reasons, but > >also partly because of the absence of a widely > accepted fully-glossed > >technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though > Wiseman's glossary > >is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). > > > >So you turn to texts written by westerners. These > are mostly very > >clear, but how did these individuals learn the > subject? Well, most of > >them learned it by reading the horrendously > translated books above! > >And in the process had to insert their own (often > very peculiar) > >understandings to make sense of the mayhem. > > > >This is the maze of Chinese medicine. > > > >Some people take what they can from these English > texts (either > >written by the Chinese native speakers or the > westerners) and go to > >clinic and develop their own form of Chinese > medicine. I'm not going > >to criticize that. > > > >I personally am more of a purist and prefer to > learn an art in the > >*traditional* way and only when (if) I one day > become a master, then > >try to develop my own interpretation. > > > >Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long > arduous route. It > >slows you down immensely. But every time I study a > passage in Chinese > >(and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to > translate) the > >meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the > pure dew from > >heaven. > > > >If you already have *some* linguistic skills in > Chinese, for heaven's > >sake use them! You're already one step up on this > ladder, so > >capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are > truly blessed! > > > >Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly > improve on this. > >I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send > you some notes on > >making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. > > > >So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you > can use your > >Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in > Chinese, not English. > >This will open up to you the huge mine of modern > Zhongyi literature > >as well as facilitate your digging into the older > classical works. > > > >All the best. > > > >David Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > === message truncated === http://babel.altavista.com/ http://groups. com and adjust accordingly. 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Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 This seems too over simplified. I would agree that the usage of pictograms makes it possible to have numerous variations in meaning and that we, today, probably have little or no understanding of what was meant 2000 years ago. It is a very common tendency for modern scholars and such to believe that they know what was meant but do they really? Archaeologists have been wrong about artifacts and there usage so it would seem plausible that language would be more problematic. Common sense is an uncommon thing. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >leah tynkova <leahhome >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:25:17 -0800 (PST) > >It is not true >There are three main languages: guwen (language of old >times BC-AD some of chinese classic esp. medicine >written on this language),wenyan (written language of >scholars and educated people used for almost 2 >thousand years almost without any big changes) and >baihua (modern language)There are some defferences >between three of them, but educated people (university >level)with some little effort can understand at least >wenyan, classic language. > >yuri > > >--- Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic >wrote: > > > I have been led to understand from my TCM > > instructors that the meaning of > > the Chinese language through the dynasty periods > > changes so that even they > > had to study the " language of the period " in order > > to understand the > > translation of the older texts.Just learning Chinese > > is not going to give > > one the security of translating the meaning of the > > texts at any period with > > any certainity.Does anyone else know if this is > > true?Sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA,CVH > > > > > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " > > <ckvedeler > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - > > Schools > > >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:54:35 -0700 > > > > > >Hi David, > > > > > >I like what you have written about the difficulty > > of learning Chinese > > >medicine. > > > > > >There is one other option that you didn't write > > however. That is to > > >learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who > > speaks English. I > > >can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and > > I can't speak > > >Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel > > I got a pretty > > >decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese > > instructors teaching in > > >America speaking English. Some of my instructors > > are the best of the > > >best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left > > China, not because they > > >were poor doctors, but because they were excellent > > doctors who wanted > > >better social and economic opportunities. They > > told me that the Chinese > > >medicine education in the US is in many ways better > > than in China. > > > > > >Also, there are a number of English translations > > that are quite accurate > > >and quite good. Understanding the cultural and > > philosophical > > >differences is something I came into the medicine > > with a pretty good > > >understanding from my Oriental philosophy > > background. > > > > > >Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way > > to learn Chinese > > >medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is > > necessary in order to > > >truly understand the medicine and become " a > > master " . I personally > > >believe that becoming a master involves personal > > cultivation to where > > >one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately > > diagnose through the > > >pulses and find the points the same way they where > > discovered in the > > >first place. In a sense, even the best of the > > Chinese books is still > > >only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. > > Only by being with a > > >patient and having enough education and background > > to forget all your > > >education and background and simply treat from a > > Zen like space is one > > >in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese > > medicine IMO. > > > > > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > >Oasis Acupuncture > > >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > > >Suite D-35 > > >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > >(480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > >David Gordon > > [junhengclinic] > > >Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM > > >Chinese Medicine > > >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - > > Schools > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Nicholas > > > > > >I believe that what makes so > > difficult to study is > > >primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven > > with this, the > > >cultural barrier. > > > > > >Most CM texts written in English by Chinese > > native-speakers are > > >horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking > > about the odd > > >abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm > > talking about huge > > >swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so > > wrong that they > > >totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm > > talking about whole > > >chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm > > talking about > > >books that *prevent* people from undersanding > > Chinese medicine! > > > > > >Many of these texts also present versions of > > Chinese medicine that > > >are highly simplified - maybe partly for > > pedagogical reasons, but > > >also partly because of the absence of a widely > > accepted fully-glossed > > >technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though > > Wiseman's glossary > > >is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). > > > > > >So you turn to texts written by westerners. These > > are mostly very > > >clear, but how did these individuals learn the > > subject? Well, most of > > >them learned it by reading the horrendously > > translated books above! > > >And in the process had to insert their own (often > > very peculiar) > > >understandings to make sense of the mayhem. > > > > > >This is the maze of Chinese medicine. > > > > > >Some people take what they can from these English > > texts (either > > >written by the Chinese native speakers or the > > westerners) and go to > > >clinic and develop their own form of Chinese > > medicine. I'm not going > > >to criticize that. > > > > > >I personally am more of a purist and prefer to > > learn an art in the > > >*traditional* way and only when (if) I one day > > become a master, then > > >try to develop my own interpretation. > > > > > >Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long > > arduous route. It > > >slows you down immensely. But every time I study a > > passage in Chinese > > >(and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to > > translate) the > > >meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the > > pure dew from > > >heaven. > > > > > >If you already have *some* linguistic skills in > > Chinese, for heaven's > > >sake use them! You're already one step up on this > > ladder, so > > >capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are > > truly blessed! > > > > > >Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly > > improve on this. > > >I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send > > you some notes on > > >making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. > > > > > >So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you > > can use your > > >Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in > > Chinese, not English. > > >This will open up to you the huge mine of modern > > Zhongyi literature > > >as well as facilitate your digging into the older > > classical works. > > > > > >All the best. > > > > > >David Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > >=== message truncated === > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 >leah tynkova <leahhome >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - Schools >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:25:17 -0800 (PST) > >It is not true >There are three main languages: guwen (language of old >times BC-AD some of chinese classic esp. medicine >written on this language),wenyan (written language of >scholars and educated people used for almost 2 >thousand years almost without any big changes) and >baihua (modern language)There are some defferences >between three of them, but educated people (university >level)with some little effort can understand at least >wenyan, classic language. > >yuri > > >--- Patricia Jordan <coastalcatclinic >wrote: > > > I have been led to understand from my TCM > > instructors that the meaning of > > the Chinese language through the dynasty periods > > changes so that even they > > had to study the " language of the period " in order > > to understand the > > translation of the older texts.Just learning Chinese > > is not going to give > > one the security of translating the meaning of the > > texts at any period with > > any certainity.Does anyone else know if this is > > true?Sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA,CVH > > > > > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " > > <ckvedeler > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > ><Chinese Medicine > > > >RE: RE: Question for Everyone - > > Schools > > >Sun, 27 Feb 2005 06:54:35 -0700 > > > > > >Hi David, > > > > > >I like what you have written about the difficulty > > of learning Chinese > > >medicine. > > > > > >There is one other option that you didn't write > > however. That is to > > >learn Chinese medicine from a Chinese master who > > speaks English. I > > >can't read Chinese (except a character or two), and > > I can't speak > > >Chinese (except for herb formula names), but I feel > > I got a pretty > > >decent Chinese medicine education from Chinese > > instructors teaching in > > >America speaking English. Some of my instructors > > are the best of the > > >best in terms of Chinese medicine. They left > > China, not because they > > >were poor doctors, but because they were excellent > > doctors who wanted > > >better social and economic opportunities. They > > told me that the Chinese > > >medicine education in the US is in many ways better > > than in China. > > > > > >Also, there are a number of English translations > > that are quite accurate > > >and quite good. Understanding the cultural and > > philosophical > > >differences is something I came into the medicine > > with a pretty good > > >understanding from my Oriental philosophy > > background. > > > > > >Although learning Chinese is perhaps the purest way > > to learn Chinese > > >medicine from the classics, I don't believe it is > > necessary in order to > > >truly understand the medicine and become " a > > master " . I personally > > >believe that becoming a master involves personal > > cultivation to where > > >one can move Qi through intention alone, accurately > > diagnose through the > > >pulses and find the points the same way they where > > discovered in the > > >first place. In a sense, even the best of the > > Chinese books is still > > >only a 2nd generation experience of the medicine. > > Only by being with a > > >patient and having enough education and background > > to forget all your > > >education and background and simply treat from a > > Zen like space is one > > >in direct contact with the spirit of Chinese > > medicine IMO. > > > > > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > > >Oasis Acupuncture > > >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > > >Suite D-35 > > >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > >(480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > >David Gordon > > [junhengclinic] > > >Saturday, February 26, 2005 11:48 PM > > >Chinese Medicine > > >Re: RE: Question for Everyone - > > Schools > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Nicholas > > > > > >I believe that what makes so > > difficult to study is > > >primarily the language barrier - and, interwoven > > with this, the > > >cultural barrier. > > > > > >Most CM texts written in English by Chinese > > native-speakers are > > >horrendously translated. And I'm not just talking > > about the odd > > >abstruse mistranslation of a tricky CM word; I'm > > talking about huge > > >swathes of text whose grammar and syntax are so > > wrong that they > > >totally mask the basic ideas being presented. I'm > > talking about whole > > >chapters that almost defy human comprehension. I'm > > talking about > > >books that *prevent* people from undersanding > > Chinese medicine! > > > > > >Many of these texts also present versions of > > Chinese medicine that > > >are highly simplified - maybe partly for > > pedagogical reasons, but > > >also partly because of the absence of a widely > > accepted fully-glossed > > >technical vocabulary for Chinese medicine (though > > Wiseman's glossary > > >is, thankfully, now gaining in acceptance). > > > > > >So you turn to texts written by westerners. These > > are mostly very > > >clear, but how did these individuals learn the > > subject? Well, most of > > >them learned it by reading the horrendously > > translated books above! > > >And in the process had to insert their own (often > > very peculiar) > > >understandings to make sense of the mayhem. > > > > > >This is the maze of Chinese medicine. > > > > > >Some people take what they can from these English > > texts (either > > >written by the Chinese native speakers or the > > westerners) and go to > > >clinic and develop their own form of Chinese > > medicine. I'm not going > > >to criticize that. > > > > > >I personally am more of a purist and prefer to > > learn an art in the > > >*traditional* way and only when (if) I one day > > become a master, then > > >try to develop my own interpretation. > > > > > >Therefore I have studied Chinese. This is a long > > arduous route. It > > >slows you down immensely. But every time I study a > > passage in Chinese > > >(and sometimes a paragraph can take me an hour to > > translate) the > > >meaning comes through crystal clear. It's like the > > pure dew from > > >heaven. > > > > > >If you already have *some* linguistic skills in > > Chinese, for heaven's > > >sake use them! You're already one step up on this > > ladder, so > > >capitalise on your advantage! Know that you are > > truly blessed! > > > > > >Pronunciation is no big deal; you can very quickly > > improve on this. > > >I'm pretty good at pronuniciation and can even send > > you some notes on > > >making the tricky sounds of Mandarin. > > > > > >So my advise on schools is: go somewhere where you > > can use your > > >Chinese to the maximum. If possible, study in > > Chinese, not English. > > >This will open up to you the huge mine of modern > > Zhongyi literature > > >as well as facilitate your digging into the older > > classical works. > > > > > >All the best. > > > > > >David Gordon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > >=== message truncated === > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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