Statin drugs

[Guest guest]

Alon,

Information to hand contradicts you...

" Statin drugs for " hypercholesterolemia, " which some doctors call a

non-illness, have become more potent and are being prescribed in higher

doses to increasing numbers of people--even those with " normal " cholesterol

levels. What is often overlooked by physicians is that patients taking

statins become depleted in Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which leads to fatigue,

muscle weakness, soreness and heart failure.

A petition to label statin packages with a warning about statin-induced

CoQ10 depletion has been issued to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration

(FDA), along with a review of animal and human studies supporting the issue.

However, experts fear that the warning will not gain the attention it

deserves. " http://www.mercola.com/2003/jul/26/cholesterol_drugs.htm

 

Apparently Statins actually damage the heart muscle by blocking the

metabolic pathway of CoQ10....

 

" What these experts don't realize is that statins kill people--lots of

people--and they wound many, many more. All patients taking statins become

depleted in Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) eventually--those patients who start with

relatively low CoQ10 levels (the elderly and patients with heart failure)

begin to manifest signs/symptoms of CoQ10 deficiency relatively rapidly--in

six to 12 months. Younger patients can tolerate the statins for several

years before they begin developing symptoms.

 

The bottom line here is that when you treat the symptoms of high cholesterol

with a drug you are in no way, shape or form treating the cause. It should

come as no surprise that the artificial drugs cause serious side effects.

 

Why risk your health by taking drugs when there are some simple things you

can do to normalize cholesterol levels?

 

The first is to normalize your insulin levels by .... "

http://www.mercola.com/2003/jul/26/cholesterol_drugs.htm

 

Now the cause of plaques in the arteries is also another story.... about

insulin resistance... have a look at Mercola.com and let me know what you

think.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

 

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

Monday, 7 February 2005 2:35 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: red yeast rice, xiao chai hu tang

 

 

cholesterol levels

>>>At the same time we should keep in mind that the mechanism of action of

statines probably has nothing to do with cholesterol. Statines are good

anti-inflammatory medication specific for the cardiovascular tissues and can

reduce C-reactive p (a marker of inflammation) which is probably why they

are useful clinically. High cholesterol level may be a marker for the body

attempting to repair inflammatory conditions. All statines are toxic but the

benefit clearly outweighs the harm, unless you are one of the unlucky ones.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sharon

I am aware of all this data, however, one cannot ignore the HUGE studies showing

that patients live longer when on statins. These are good prospective studies. I

do tell all my patients to take Q-10 when on statins.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Perhaps Alon or someone else on the list can answer some questions for me about

statins. Alon - I am aware of the studies that show the benefits of statins for

those who have had a heart attack, but I am not aware of any studies that

compare long-term benefits vs. risk of statins being taken for 20-30 years or

more by otherwise healthy people who have cholesterol levels say of 220. My

concern is that the original studies compared those who had lower cholesterol

levels (under 200 for example) with those with higher levels and concluded

lowering cholesterol under 200 would help lower the risk of developing heart

disease. However, these studies compared those who had cholesterol under 200

NATURALLY - not those who had their cholesterol levels lowered by drugs. To my

mind, thinking that those who have their cholesterol lowered below 200 by the

aid of statins will have the same health profile as those who have cholesterol

under 200 naturally is an assumption not supported by objective data and is thus

unscientific. Again, there is a significant difference between preventing second

or third heart attacks with statins vs. preventing the first. To the best of my

knowledge, we do not know the risk of 20-30 years or more of statins on

otherwise healthy individuals nor do we know such use will even lower the risk

of heart disease because no one has followed significant numbers of subjects

over this period of time. Am I wrong here or have we jumped the gun assuming

those with cholesterol forced down with drugs will be the same as those with

lower numbers naturally? I am concerned about prescribing any drug for the rest

of a person's life to prevent a possible disease decades in the future when no

one has first studied such long-term administration so true benefit vs. risk

analysis can be done. We should all have learned this lesson from the hormone

replacement therapy (HRT) study recently dome. Cases of breast cancer began to

appear only after 5 years of continuous use. We simply don't know what happens

after 10, 20, 30 years or more. - Matt Bauer

-

Alon Marcus

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, February 06, 2005 2:33 PM

Re: Statin drugs

 

 

Sharon

I am aware of all this data, however, one cannot ignore the HUGE studies

showing that patients live longer when on statins. These are good prospective

studies. I do tell all my patients to take Q-10 when on statins.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Good to hear Alon that you have also seen and reviewed this data.

 

I suppose we just draw different conclusions about acceptable side effects

and treating causes v's symptoms.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

Monday, 7 February 2005 8:33 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Statin drugs

 

 

Sharon

I am aware of all this data, however, one cannot ignore the HUGE studies

showing that patients live longer when on statins. These are good

prospective studies. I do tell all my patients to take Q-10 when on statins.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I suppose we just draw different conclusions about acceptable side effects

and treating causes v's symptoms.

>>>>Sharon, the numbers are not subject to differing conclusions, they have been

quite consistent with very large studies in many countries. Yes some patients

develop serious side-effects but the numbers are not large (except for those

statins that have been withdrawn). The numbers clearly show greatly increased

life span. I think the liver problems are easy to prevent with herbs and

supplements. I have reduced several patients LFTs. The muscle problems are

fairly rare but can be very serious and i am not sure we know how to prevent

them.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am aware of the studies that show the benefits of statins for those who have

had a heart attack, but I am not aware of any studies that compare long-term

benefits vs. risk of statins being taken for 20-30 years or more by otherwise

healthy people who have cholesterol levels say of 220.

>>>You make some good points and personally i think statins should be prescribed

based on highly sensitive CRP and not cholesterol.We definitely do not have all

the answers but for people in high risk groups i think the evidence at this

point is compelling enough. Having a high cholesterol and no other risk factors

does not put one at high risk for heart disease and i agree with you they should

not be medicated, perhaps they should if they also have a very high CRP.

Cholesterol is not a bad substance and it is needed for the production of many

of our hormones. As i said before, high levels have been correlated to the

bodies attempt to handle inflammation.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Alon. I really think there should be a clear-headed distinction between

high risk groups (especially those with heart disease) and all those being

prescribed statins simply because their cholesterol levels are over 200. I have

seen several patients prescribed these medication with no other risk factors and

cholesterol as low as 180! Matt

-

Alon Marcus

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, February 06, 2005 4:35 PM

Re: Statin drugs

 

 

I am aware of the studies that show the benefits of statins for those who have

had a heart attack, but I am not aware of any studies that compare long-term

benefits vs. risk of statins being taken for 20-30 years or more by otherwise

healthy people who have cholesterol levels say of 220.

>>>You make some good points and personally i think statins should be

prescribed based on highly sensitive CRP and not cholesterol.We definitely do

not have all the answers but for people in high risk groups i think the evidence

at this point is compelling enough. Having a high cholesterol and no other risk

factors does not put one at high risk for heart disease and i agree with you

they should not be medicated, perhaps they should if they also have a very high

CRP. Cholesterol is not a bad substance and it is needed for the production of

many of our hormones. As i said before, high levels have been correlated to the

bodies attempt to handle inflammation.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

As I understand it cholesterol undertakes important repair work in almost

all parts of the body. It is required for all sex hormone production. Its

a 'good guy'. Excessive levels of cholesterol can be interpreted as being

in response to a lot of tissue damage that the cholesterol is required to

make repairs. More on that later at the very least it should be an alert

that this damage that needs attention rather stoping the cholesterol.

 

The problem with plaque in the arteries is due to the adherence of excess

insulin which makes theme sticky and attracts the cholesterol.

 

There is excess insulin because there is insulin resistance and the

pancrease is in the pre-diabetic step of being hyper before hypo.

 

There is insulin resistance because the more a hormone is present the less

it is 'listened too', by the cells, so more is produced to counteract this

effect. This will lead to pancreatic exhaustion and hence diabetes.

 

There are many studies showing that in the cholesterol adhering to the

arteries is an abundance of polyunsaturated fats, ie canola, sunflower etc.

Avoid this polyunsaturated oils and of course all transfatty acids.

 

What is really important is that we do eat fat and that we have a balance

between Omega, 3, 6, and 9's. Most western diets are highly deficient in

Omega 3's and for some Omega 9's and are loaded with dangerously damaging

transfatty acids.

 

So if you want to deal with high cholesterol, reduce the intake of starchy

carbohydrates, use fat as a fuel source including adequate Omega 3's which

will give an anti-inflammatory effect as well as cold pressed saturated

coconut oil, butter, cold pressed olive oil, grass feed meat (higher in

Omega 3's) there are a number of choices here for the individual according

to meat/vege preferences.

 

This will reduce your cholesterol level - as there won't be so much damage

caused by polyunsaturated oils and less insulin resistance with the lower

intake of starchy carbs.

 

Reduce your insulin and should turn insulin resistance around - if it is not

too late and the pancrease may recover and one will avoid diabetes, reduce

aging factors improve heart conditions and avoid the need for synthetic

drugs whose side effects include death.

 

As you can see my approach is to look at the chain of cause and effects and

make the required changes in the are of cause not effect. Dietary changes

and supplements and lifestyle changes can probably do the rest for many

people.

 

For a review of the metabolic effects of insulin you may like to read Part 1

at http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm

Best wishes,

 

 

 

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

Monday, 7 February 2005 10:26 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Statin drugs

 

 

I suppose we just draw different conclusions about acceptable side effects

and treating causes v's symptoms.

>>>>Sharon, the numbers are not subject to differing conclusions, they

have been quite consistent with very large studies in many countries. Yes

some patients develop serious side-effects but the numbers are not large

(except for those statins that have been withdrawn). The numbers clearly

show greatly increased life span. I think the liver problems are easy to

prevent with herbs and supplements. I have reduced several patients LFTs.

The muscle problems are fairly rare but can be very serious and i am not

sure we know how to prevent them.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Matt

Most drugs have serious possible side effects and should only be taken when

absolutely necessary. At the same time i wish we new more about safety of many

of the herbs we use daily

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The problem with plaque in the arteries is due to the adherence of excess

insulin which makes theme sticky and attracts the cholesterol.

>>>We don't really know that, some believe it is due to infections and

inflammation. There are many theories.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This will reduce your cholesterol level - as there won't be so much damage

caused by polyunsaturated oils and less insulin resistance with the lower

intake of starchy carbs.

>>>This does not work for everybody and i am one example of it. I have tried

very hard including addition of very high levels of omega 3. My fasting insulin

levels have improved and this is good because i have familial syndrome X.

Genetics play a big role. My cholesterol never came below 300 and trig less than

600. I have to take red yeast at high levels to affect these.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Those of us in alternative medicine know we can achieve the same reductions in

inflammation using a high quality and amount of EFA's.

 

Brian

>>>>>As i said before i am one example in which EFA's did not work. I know of

many more. Its dangerous to generalize. Real life is often more complex

unfortunately

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

No doubt one size does not fit all.

 

However, controlling cholesterol levels via drugs so a number is right

doesn't add up for me. Good luck to you if it does.

Best wishes,

 

 

 

Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

Monday, 7 February 2005 5:22 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Statin drugs

 

 

This will reduce your cholesterol level - as there won't be so much damage

caused by polyunsaturated oils and less insulin resistance with the lower

intake of starchy carbs.

>>>This does not work for everybody and i am one example of it. I have

tried very hard including addition of very high levels of omega 3. My

fasting insulin levels have improved and this is good because i have

familial syndrome X. Genetics play a big role. My cholesterol never came

below 300 and trig less than 600. I have to take red yeast at high levels to

affect these.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,all,

 

Perhaps it helps further our understanding, if after reading DR Mercola's

website, read also

 

Mary Enig, Ph.D., and Sally Fallon's THE TRUTH ABOUT SATURATED FATS

 

_www.coconutoil.com/truth_saturated_fats.htm_

(http://www.coconutoil.com/truth_saturated_fats.htm)

 

I think we've been lied to for so long.

 

Take care.

 

amy

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You're missing the point here. There are several factors for high cholesterol

levels, heart disease, etc. and therefore several different approaches in

lowering the cholesterol and reducing additional factors for heart disease and

MI's.

 

You also need to monitor the cholesterol levels and look at additional

independent rish factors such as lipids, homocysteine, c-reactive protein,

fibrinogen levels, apo a-1, apo-b, lipoprotein.

 

If we start to practice like the MD's with a specific treatment for a specific

disease we are doing nothing more than they are.

 

For high cholesterol we can use red yeast, policonsonol, etc.

 

For increased inflammation, we can use EFA, bromelain or other natural

supplements.

 

Again, this is a medical approach in my opinion, what if the patient is

hypothyroid, has improper phase 1 and phase 2 liver detoxification pathways,

etc.

 

This is the approach I take in my practice if the patients are willing to try to

find out what is actually raising their cholesterol.

 

For patients who do not want to do this, than I will take the medical approach

to using nutrition.

 

The bottom line is the patient needs to be tested and consistently re-evaluated

for whatever treatment is being given.

 

Brian N Hardy

 

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Those of us in alternative medicine know we can achieve the same reductions in

inflammation using a high quality and amount of EFA's.

 

Brian

>>>>>As i said before i am one example in which EFA's did not work. I know of

many more. Its dangerous to generalize. Real life is often more complex

unfortunately

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Brian I work with len saputo and he does all you have just described and

more. Of course if ones lipid problems are do to their thyroid one needs to

treat it. However, even with all these interventions, and the testing for

all the possibilities cost more than $2000, i have seen plenty of treatment

failures if cholesterol levels lowering is the measure.

 

 

[Guest guest]

wrote

> The problem with plaque in the arteries is due to the adherence of

excess insulin which makes theme sticky and attracts the cholesterol.

>

Hi Sharon,

 

When I teach nutrition biochemistry at Merritt College, I hand out

the following review paper to help people get a grip on the chemistry

of how arterial plaque forms.

 

See: http://www.cardiab.com/content/1/1/1

 

Dr. Mercola sometimes has fuzzy descriptions of things (his heart is

in the right place), yet you seem to be on the right track.

 

Hyperglycemia causes glucose to bind to LDLs in situ in arterial

walls in a reversible reaction (only reversible for awhile). Recall

from you physiology classes that the fate of LDLs is to end up in

plaque, while HDLs may be taken up by liver receptors unless blocked

by saturated fats. My apologies to those who love saturated fats.

(Read 1975 NEJM, an August issue, Goldstein and Brown, can't recall

more specifically off hand.) HDLs can scavenge cholesterol from

circulating LDLs as well as from those in the early plaque

formations. However, after weeks or months of hyperglycemia the

glucose binding becomes permanent in what is (amusingly) called AGEs,

advanced glycosylated end-products. So ... people with insulin

resistance (which you described nicely) along with hyperglycemia tend

to age faster ... develop more AGEs.

 

My reading of the clinical and scientific literature brings me to the

conclusion that complex carbohydrates provides the necessary soluble

and insoluble fiber that helps most in a healthy diet. I do not find

the literature on fat supplements to be compelling. I do find Dr.

Dean Ornish's clinical papers to be compelling. His papers are

better than his books, in my opinion.

 

Part of studying and teaching nutritional biochemistry for eighteen

years has caused me to review the literature many times back as far

as the 1960s. While I would not use supplements of various fats, I

also would not completely eliminate small amounts of well-selected

meat and fish from the diet. They are so helpful in building a soup

consisting of a wide variety of vegetables, mushrooms, so on. You

get to have nutrients dissolving into both water and lipid phases.

 

My apologies for sounding too much like a chemist. Also my HDL liver

receptors are the opposite of Alon's. Something about being

Bulgarian I'm told. I have high HDLs with total cholesterol in the

120s. So if Alon can lower his cholesterol, I recommend that we pay

close attention.

 

Happy First Day to All.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel

I have three generations of males that I know of that died in 30s and 40s from

cardiovascular disease in my dad side of the family. my dad has the same

syndrome X problems, although still alive at 77 possibly because of the medical

interventions. Since I am only 47 I am caught between what we know and what we

do not know regarding this whole field. At this point I think it makes sense to

lower my lipids and since diet and functional nutritional approach did not work

for me I am gambling with red yeast rice, niacin and fish oil. Both niacin and

red yeast are toxic to the liver but I try to counteract this with herbs.

Hopefully co-q10 is protecting my heart and muscles.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon:

 

What is CRP? I am very interested in the overuse of the drug and will

sit down and read these emails carefully. Do you prescribe herbs to

deal with the specific side effect the patient is expereincing or do you

prescribe them for liver?

 

Anne

 

Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> I am aware of the studies that show the benefits of statins for those

> who have had a heart attack, but I am not aware of any studies that

> compare long-term benefits vs. risk of statins being taken for 20-30

> years or more by otherwise healthy people who have cholesterol levels

> say of 220.

> >>>You make some good points and personally i think statins should be

> prescribed based on highly sensitive CRP and not cholesterol.We

> definitely do not have all the answers but for people in high risk

> groups i think the evidence at this point is compelling enough. Having

> a high cholesterol and no other risk factors does not put one at high

> risk for heart disease and i agree with you they should not be

> medicated, perhaps they should if they also have a very high CRP.

> Cholesterol is not a bad substance and it is needed for the production

> of many of our hormones. As i said before, high levels have been

> correlated to the bodies attempt to handle inflammation.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is EFA? Sorry I'm coming into this late.

 

Anne

 

Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Those of us in alternative medicine know we can achieve the same

> reductions in inflammation using a high quality and amount of EFA's.

>

> Brian

> >>>>>As i said before i am one example in which EFA's did not work. I

> know of many more. Its dangerous to generalize. Real life is often

> more complex unfortunately

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

EFA = Essential Fatty Acids

 

 

 

Anne Crowley [blazing.valley]

Sunday, 20 February 2005 11:20 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Statin drugs

 

 

What is EFA? Sorry I'm coming into this late.

 

Anne

 

Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Those of us in alternative medicine know we can achieve the same

> reductions in inflammation using a high quality and amount of EFA's.

>

> Brian

> >>>>>As i said before i am one example in which EFA's did not work. I

> know of many more. Its dangerous to generalize. Real life is often

> more complex unfortunately

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is CRP? I am very interested in the overuse of the drug and will

sit down and read these emails carefully

>>>>>>Anne

Its C reactive protein

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What is EFA?

>>>>essential fatty acids