Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered her sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other > subsequently diagnosed. > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your > patients here. > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, > hot, swollen etc). > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 > year olds. > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > real stuckness. > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia > which Janice explains. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa > etc. > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > have something to offer in this case. > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > neurological group it is under. > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > Best Wishes > Anita > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Well Laura, Janice at the Parkinson recovery use to, I suppose she still does it, a certificate if you treat so many Parkinson diagnosed patients for free. In this way you are gaining the experience. Now outside of that, the issues sits between the two of you. If you believed in reincarnation... maybe there is something there, if not maybe its about letting her go. Or maybe ask her at what price would you come for treatment? I find Px's are always teaching me something about myself. Hope this is of help, Best wishes, heylaurag [heylaurag] Sunday, 6 February 2005 7:39 AM Chinese Medicine Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered her sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other > subsequently diagnosed. > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your > patients here. > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, > hot, swollen etc). > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 > year olds. > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > real stuckness. > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia > which Janice explains. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa > etc. > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > have something to offer in this case. > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > neurological group it is under. > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > Best Wishes > Anita > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Laura, Your situation touched on an issue close to my heart. It is a question of value, or perceived value. In this culture with health insurance, people are disenfranchised I think. They are lead to believe that healthcare should be free and that insurance should cover everything. In a round about way, I believe that this actually hurts people's health because it creates a sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility around our health. Our health is perhaps the single most important " thing " in our lives. Without it we can't hope to do much of anything else with much quality. For something so important, it should be valued as such. Cancer survivors often reach this realization when faced with their possible death. Our health is certainly more valuable than our house or our car which people don't blink an eye to spend way beyond their means for. $15 for a skilled Chinese medicine treatment is ridiculous. People paid $25 when I was a student. Without knowing much at all about your situation, I suspect that part of the woman's problem may be rooted in not valuing her health. If she didn't feel that your services are of value than she either needs to be educated about what you can offer her, or she needs to find someone or something else to put her energy into. In my limited experience, those that get the best results are those who are most invested in the outcome. Those patients that would move heaven and earth to come and see me are the ones that respond most quickly more often than not. With all of that said, I do understand that there are people who simply can't afford the kind of care that they need. There are situations, if I felt where karmically balanced in some other way (like lots of paying referrals or some other karmic trade), that I would give away my services. Sometimes a patient just touches you, and perhaps that is enough. However, if they came to me with a sense of entitlement and did not show a strong willingness to work with me and were not heavily invested in their outcome I would not accept them as a non-paying or low-paying patient. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 (480) 991-3650 heylaurag [heylaurag] Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:39 PM Chinese Medicine Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered her sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 HI Chris and Laura, Chris I appreciate all that you have said, and would like to add that if the practitioner is uncertain about being able to help, this also might be factored in. I know that when I do good acupuncture I have a clear internal sense of direction and when this is lacking I suppose I must give off a confused vibe. I also realise that when I do have this certainty for want of a better word and the person doesn't want to join me in their health pursuit... they just may not be ready for what I have to offer or it may not be part of their greater journey. We learn so much about ourselves when we are sick. Best wishes, Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. [ckvedeler] Sunday, 6 February 2005 8:46 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues Laura, Your situation touched on an issue close to my heart. It is a question of value, or perceived value. In this culture with health insurance, people are disenfranchised I think. They are lead to believe that healthcare should be free and that insurance should cover everything. In a round about way, I believe that this actually hurts people's health because it creates a sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility around our health. Our health is perhaps the single most important " thing " in our lives. Without it we can't hope to do much of anything else with much quality. For something so important, it should be valued as such. Cancer survivors often reach this realization when faced with their possible death. Our health is certainly more valuable than our house or our car which people don't blink an eye to spend way beyond their means for. $15 for a skilled Chinese medicine treatment is ridiculous. People paid $25 when I was a student. Without knowing much at all about your situation, I suspect that part of the woman's problem may be rooted in not valuing her health. If she didn't feel that your services are of value than she either needs to be educated about what you can offer her, or she needs to find someone or something else to put her energy into. In my limited experience, those that get the best results are those who are most invested in the outcome. Those patients that would move heaven and earth to come and see me are the ones that respond most quickly more often than not. With all of that said, I do understand that there are people who simply can't afford the kind of care that they need. There are situations, if I felt where karmically balanced in some other way (like lots of paying referrals or some other karmic trade), that I would give away my services. Sometimes a patient just touches you, and perhaps that is enough. However, if they came to me with a sense of entitlement and did not show a strong willingness to work with me and were not heavily invested in their outcome I would not accept them as a non-paying or low-paying patient. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 (480) 991-3650 heylaurag [heylaurag] Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:39 PM Chinese Medicine Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered her sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Sharon, > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered > her Hi Laura! People don't realize what is going on. The " developed world " standard of living started to decline with the " Arab Oil Crisis " in the early 70s and has (adjusted for inflation) continued in a free fall ever since. We are reaching the point where we are almost a two class society, the small upper class very rich and the rest of us very poor, after the third world model. There are a *lot* of people who can afford no health care at all. If you make " good money " but everything you need costs too much you can still afford no health care at all. When a prospective patient calls me the first thing he or she asks is if I " accept " Medicare. There has been a move to get acupuncture included in Medicare in the US underway for 10 years, if this ever succeeds it will help a lot of people because something like 60% of the insurance companies only cover what Medicare covers. <http://www.aomnc.com/lobbyist.html> Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 You might ask this patient to produce her bank statements or pay stub as proof of her actual financials. This way you can determine if she is legit or not. Seems kind of fishy. In the end, it is her loss and choice to continue or not. This is something each of us must come to terms with at some time. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " <ckvedeler >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues >Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:45:30 -0700 > >Laura, > >Your situation touched on an issue close to my heart. It is a question >of value, or perceived value. In this culture with health insurance, >people are disenfranchised I think. They are lead to believe that >healthcare should be free and that insurance should cover everything. >In a round about way, I believe that this actually hurts people's health >because it creates a sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility >around our health. Our health is perhaps the single most important > " thing " in our lives. Without it we can't hope to do much of anything >else with much quality. For something so important, it should be valued >as such. Cancer survivors often reach this realization when faced with >their possible death. Our health is certainly more valuable than our >house or our car which people don't blink an eye to spend way beyond >their means for. $15 for a skilled Chinese medicine treatment is >ridiculous. People paid $25 when I was a student. > >Without knowing much at all about your situation, I suspect that part of >the woman's problem may be rooted in not valuing her health. If she >didn't feel that your services are of value than she either needs to be >educated about what you can offer her, or she needs to find someone or >something else to put her energy into. In my limited experience, those >that get the best results are those who are most invested in the >outcome. Those patients that would move heaven and earth to come and >see me are the ones that respond most quickly more often than not. > >With all of that said, I do understand that there are people who simply >can't afford the kind of care that they need. There are situations, if >I felt where karmically balanced in some other way (like lots of paying >referrals or some other karmic trade), that I would give away my >services. Sometimes a patient just touches you, and perhaps that is >enough. However, if they came to me with a sense of entitlement and did >not show a strong willingness to work with me and were not heavily >invested in their outcome I would not accept them as a non-paying or >low-paying patient. > >Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. >Oasis Acupuncture >http://www.oasisacupuncture.com >8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte >Suite D-35 >Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >(480) 991-3650 > > >heylaurag [heylaurag] >Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:39 PM >Chinese Medicine >Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > >Hi Sharon, > >Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > >I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do >because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered her >sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot >handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school >teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could >afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected >instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's >giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential >seriousness of this condition. > >Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am >paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem >filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. > > >Anyone have any thoughts on that? > >Laura > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Christopher: I agree with you. Laura, you may have to have a discussion with her about how invested she is in her health. You may have to see her more frequently to get results. See what you are willing to do, maybe with an understanding that as her financial situation improves, your rates will go up. When you turn this around - I am offereing you this for your health, do you accept or not, you will get a commited patient or none at all. Yes, be willing to let her go. She may have to take " another " step in her healing journey right now. Anne Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. wrote: > Laura, > > Your situation touched on an issue close to my heart. It is a question > of value, or perceived value. In this culture with health insurance, > people are disenfranchised I think. They are lead to believe that > healthcare should be free and that insurance should cover everything. > In a round about way, I believe that this actually hurts people's health > because it creates a sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility > around our health. Our health is perhaps the single most important > " thing " in our lives. Without it we can't hope to do much of anything > else with much quality. For something so important, it should be valued > as such. Cancer survivors often reach this realization when faced with > their possible death. Our health is certainly more valuable than our > house or our car which people don't blink an eye to spend way beyond > their means for. $15 for a skilled Chinese medicine treatment is > ridiculous. People paid $25 when I was a student. > > Without knowing much at all about your situation, I suspect that part of > the woman's problem may be rooted in not valuing her health. If she > didn't feel that your services are of value than she either needs to be > educated about what you can offer her, or she needs to find someone or > something else to put her energy into. In my limited experience, those > that get the best results are those who are most invested in the > outcome. Those patients that would move heaven and earth to come and > see me are the ones that respond most quickly more often than not. > > With all of that said, I do understand that there are people who simply > can't afford the kind of care that they need. There are situations, if > I felt where karmically balanced in some other way (like lots of paying > referrals or some other karmic trade), that I would give away my > services. Sometimes a patient just touches you, and perhaps that is > enough. However, if they came to me with a sense of entitlement and did > not show a strong willingness to work with me and were not heavily > invested in their outcome I would not accept them as a non-paying or > low-paying patient. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > (480) 991-3650 > > > heylaurag [heylaurag] > Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:39 PM > Chinese Medicine > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered her > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > seriousness of this condition. > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Sharon, Yes, I agree that if I am uncertain about what to do, or how to proceed then that can put out a confused vibe. I know that it is tough sometimes, but I believe that one should be completely honest with patients. If I don't know what to do, then I should simply tell the patient something like this, " I've never treated this particular condition before, I'm not sure this will work. However, I will do research on it and either find someone I belive may be able to help you better than I, or if you are willing, perhaps we can travel on a jouney of discovery together. " If they say " yes " , more than likely you have a patient willing to do what-ever they can to regain their health, and someone I would be willing to reduce my fee for. If they say, " no " or don't come back, then at least the matter is in the open and settled. In the back of their mind they will more than likely respect you even if they are no longer a patient. We should always have their best interest in mind and clearly communicate that to them as much as possible. I think there is a lot of pressure to know everything when someone is coming to us for help. We can't know everything and can only do what we can do. I believe that if we are truly looking out for the best interest of our patients we need to be honest about our limitations. In many respects this delema of having to be all knowing is the curse that many MD's carry at the expense of their humanity and their ability to create a truly healing relationship with their patients. -Chris > > Sharon [] > Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:24 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > HI Chris and Laura, > Chris I appreciate all that you have said, and would like to > add that if the practitioner is uncertain about being able to > help, this also might be factored in. > > I know that when I do good acupuncture I have a clear > internal sense of direction and when this is lacking I > suppose I must give off a confused vibe. > > I also realise that when I do have this certainty for want of > a better word and the person doesn't want to join me in their > health pursuit... they just may not be ready for what I have > to offer or it may not be part of their greater journey. We > learn so much about ourselves when we are sick. Best wishes, > > > > > Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. [ckvedeler] > Sunday, 6 February 2005 8:46 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > Laura, > > Your situation touched on an issue close to my heart. It > is a question > of value, or perceived value. In this culture with health > insurance, > people are disenfranchised I think. They are lead to believe that > healthcare should be free and that insurance should cover > everything. > In a round about way, I believe that this actually hurts > people's health > because it creates a sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility > around our health. Our health is perhaps the single most important > " thing " in our lives. Without it we can't hope to do much > of anything > else with much quality. For something so important, it > should be valued > as such. Cancer survivors often reach this realization > when faced with > their possible death. Our health is certainly more > valuable than our > house or our car which people don't blink an eye to spend way beyond > their means for. $15 for a skilled Chinese medicine treatment is > ridiculous. People paid $25 when I was a student. > > Without knowing much at all about your situation, I suspect > that part of > the woman's problem may be rooted in not valuing her health. If she > didn't feel that your services are of value than she either > needs to be > educated about what you can offer her, or she needs to find > someone or > something else to put her energy into. In my limited > experience, those > that get the best results are those who are most invested in the > outcome. Those patients that would move heaven and earth > to come and > see me are the ones that respond most quickly more often than not. > > With all of that said, I do understand that there are > people who simply > can't afford the kind of care that they need. There are > situations, if > I felt where karmically balanced in some other way (like > lots of paying > referrals or some other karmic trade), that I would give away my > services. Sometimes a patient just touches you, and perhaps that is > enough. However, if they came to me with a sense of > entitlement and did > not show a strong willingness to work with me and were not heavily > invested in their outcome I would not accept them as a non-paying or > low-paying patient. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > (480) 991-3650 > > > heylaurag [heylaurag] > Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:39 PM > Chinese Medicine > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I > offered her > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that > she cannot > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > seriousness of this condition. > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am > giving her I am > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have > no problem > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular > insurance price. > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Hi Chris, I wish I had heard these words of yours when I first started practice over 10 yrs ago. I so totally agree with them. Back then I use to wish some days that patients would cancel.... that was along time ago now. I came to realise to use my fear to find out more; it was okay that I didn't know it all, I suppose I started to de-personalise my work. Part of my change came when I realised that it was a team effort between the patient and myself. Another part came when I started finding feed back mechanisms. Something I learnt from my study of Japanese Meridian therapy. So as I worked the change in the pressure pain reaction of key points told me I was on track. If it didn't change I would have to re-think what I was doing. And crucially I knew what was and wasn't working. That allows for a great deal of confidence! Of course the more experience the less darkness and the more clarity emerges. Here by fifth year of practice 95% of practitioners have quit. I feel very lucky to have gotten over that hurdle and be in practice today. Best wishes, Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. [ckvedeler] Sunday, 6 February 2005 1:57 PM Chinese Medicine RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues Sharon, Yes, I agree that if I am uncertain about what to do, or how to proceed then that can put out a confused vibe. I know that it is tough sometimes, but I believe that one should be completely honest with patients. If I don't know what to do, then I should simply tell the patient something like this, " I've never treated this particular condition before, I'm not sure this will work. However, I will do research on it and either find someone I belive may be able to help you better than I, or if you are willing, perhaps we can travel on a jouney of discovery together. " If they say " yes " , more than likely you have a patient willing to do what-ever they can to regain their health, and someone I would be willing to reduce my fee for. If they say, " no " or don't come back, then at least the matter is in the open and settled. In the back of their mind they will more than likely respect you even if they are no longer a patient. We should always have their best interest in mind and clearly communicate that to them as much as possible. I think there is a lot of pressure to know everything when someone is coming to us for help. We can't know everything and can only do what we can do. I believe that if we are truly looking out for the best interest of our patients we need to be honest about our limitations. In many respects this delema of having to be all knowing is the curse that many MD's carry at the expense of their humanity and their ability to create a truly healing relationship with their patients. -Chris > > Sharon [] > Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:24 PM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > HI Chris and Laura, > Chris I appreciate all that you have said, and would like to > add that if the practitioner is uncertain about being able to > help, this also might be factored in. > > I know that when I do good acupuncture I have a clear > internal sense of direction and when this is lacking I > suppose I must give off a confused vibe. > > I also realise that when I do have this certainty for want of > a better word and the person doesn't want to join me in their > health pursuit... they just may not be ready for what I have > to offer or it may not be part of their greater journey. We > learn so much about ourselves when we are sick. Best wishes, > > > > > Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. [ckvedeler] > Sunday, 6 February 2005 8:46 AM > Chinese Medicine > RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > Laura, > > Your situation touched on an issue close to my heart. It > is a question > of value, or perceived value. In this culture with health > insurance, > people are disenfranchised I think. They are lead to believe that > healthcare should be free and that insurance should cover > everything. > In a round about way, I believe that this actually hurts > people's health > because it creates a sense of entitlement and lack of responsibility > around our health. Our health is perhaps the single most important > " thing " in our lives. Without it we can't hope to do much > of anything > else with much quality. For something so important, it > should be valued > as such. Cancer survivors often reach this realization > when faced with > their possible death. Our health is certainly more > valuable than our > house or our car which people don't blink an eye to spend way beyond > their means for. $15 for a skilled Chinese medicine treatment is > ridiculous. People paid $25 when I was a student. > > Without knowing much at all about your situation, I suspect > that part of > the woman's problem may be rooted in not valuing her health. If she > didn't feel that your services are of value than she either > needs to be > educated about what you can offer her, or she needs to find > someone or > something else to put her energy into. In my limited > experience, those > that get the best results are those who are most invested in the > outcome. Those patients that would move heaven and earth > to come and > see me are the ones that respond most quickly more often than not. > > With all of that said, I do understand that there are > people who simply > can't afford the kind of care that they need. There are > situations, if > I felt where karmically balanced in some other way (like > lots of paying > referrals or some other karmic trade), that I would give away my > services. Sometimes a patient just touches you, and perhaps that is > enough. However, if they came to me with a sense of > entitlement and did > not show a strong willingness to work with me and were not heavily > invested in their outcome I would not accept them as a non-paying or > low-paying patient. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > (480) 991-3650 > > > heylaurag [heylaurag] > Saturday, February 05, 2005 2:39 PM > Chinese Medicine > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I > offered her > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that > she cannot > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > seriousness of this condition. > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am > giving her I am > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have > no problem > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular > insurance price. > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > Laura > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi Laura, I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over backwards for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in terms of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so much over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day off(they often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or significantly reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not true in EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means as I am not a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too much for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways BUT not seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces IMMEDIATE results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your time.This can save you a lot of time,energy and money. Regards Ray Ford - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered herr time. sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other > subsequently diagnosed. > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your > patients here. > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, > hot, swollen etc). > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 > year olds. > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > real stuckness. > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia > which Janice explains. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa > etc. > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > have something to offer in this case. > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > neurological group it is under. > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > Best Wishes > Anita > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi Ray and Laura, Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... whilst they turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting myself out' to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them on my days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator to all these patients. Maybe sometimes, it is just us! Best wishes, raymond ford [rford] Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Laura, I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over backwards for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in terms of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so much over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day off(they often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or significantly reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not true in EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means as I am not a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too much for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways BUT not seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces IMMEDIATE results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your time.This can save you a lot of time,energy and money. Regards Ray Ford - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered herr time. sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other > subsequently diagnosed. > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your > patients here. > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, > hot, swollen etc). > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 > year olds. > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > real stuckness. > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia > which Janice explains. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa > etc. > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > have something to offer in this case. > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > neurological group it is under. > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > Best Wishes > Anita > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi All, Wow, so many great responses! This has been really very helpful for me to read and think about. One thing that I didn't mention (and should have!) is that she said, " I cannot afford to pay you the $30 that I now owe you, so I will wait a month and then start coming in twice a month " (which is usually a sign that they won't be back). I left a message for her telling her that I would wave the $30 that she already owed me, but that from here on out it would be $15 a session. Then I suggested that she go ahead and make an appointment for a month from now since she needs evenings and those times go fast....I haven't heard from her (but its only been a few days). You know, if a few things were different I would probably be more likely to accept the $25 from her insurance as payment: first of all, as someone suggested, I really am not confident that I can help her signifcantly, although she did get some improvement after the first session. If I was, I'd probably be wanting to jump on it. Also, there's something about her attitude....for one thing, she asked if I could wave the $25 co-pay DURING the first session, something that she should have asked before coming, and she seemed to just expect that I would basically accept a 50% discount. Also, the message she left in response to my offer for $10 off her co-pay seemed almost angry...which seemed really very entitled to me---but I could have misinterpreted that. So, anway, thanks for letting me think " out loud " (so to speak). Lots to consider... By the way, I too have found that the people I bend over backwards for often don't follow through. I prefer to wait and see how they are before I start bending over backwards for them, but sometimes I have no choice by necessity--especially since I am still relatively new with lots to learn. It can be frustrating when I've done a lot of research and the person stops coming---but at least I've learned a lot....as I have here. Thanks for the thoughts! Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Ray and Laura, > > Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... whilst they > turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting myself out' > to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them on my > days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator to all > these patients. > > Maybe sometimes, it is just us! > Best wishes, > > > > raymond ford [rford@p...] > Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > Hi Laura, > I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over backwards > for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in > terms > of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so > much > over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day off(they > often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or significantly > reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not true in > EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means as I am > not > a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too > much > for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are > spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways BUT not > seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and > impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces IMMEDIATE > results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your time.This can > save you a lot of time,energy and money. > Regards Ray Ford > > > > - > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > <Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered herr > time. > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > seriousness of this condition. > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > Laura > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and > the other > > subsequently diagnosed. > > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for > Parkinson > > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction > in your > > patients here. > > > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to > treat > > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot > from an > > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never > became red, > > hot, swollen etc). > > > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with > the large > > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips > to the > > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face > jumps to the > > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This > sets up > > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then > leaves the > > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want > to give > > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into > Parkinson > > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much > for 70 > > year olds. > > > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia > Nigra could > > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it > shuts down > > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is > injury, > > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the > physical > > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the > unexpressed > > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > > real stuckness. > > > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you > might think > > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin > tunia > > which Janice explains. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of > neurological > > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, > constitutional, moxa > > etc. > > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > > have something to offer in this case. > > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > > neurological group it is under. > > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of > scalp > > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side > effects of > > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone > disorder, > > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > > Best Wishes > > Anita > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > and > adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > academics, > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi Sharon, I understand what you are saying and agree to the extent that it is " us " for not recognising the " pattern of behaviour that is usually obvious " and it is part of THEIR pattern not mine. Regards Ray Ford - <> <Chinese Medicine > Monday, February 07, 2005 2:19 PM RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Ray and Laura, Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... whilst they turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting myself out' to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them on my days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator to all these patients. Maybe sometimes, it is just us! Best wishes, raymond ford [rford] Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Laura, I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over backwards for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in terms of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so much over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day off(they often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or significantly reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not true in EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means as I am not a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too much for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways BUT not seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces IMMEDIATE results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your time.This can save you a lot of time,energy and money. Regards Ray Ford - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered herr time. sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other > subsequently diagnosed. > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your > patients here. > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, > hot, swollen etc). > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 > year olds. > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > real stuckness. > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia > which Janice explains. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa > etc. > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > have something to offer in this case. > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > neurological group it is under. > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > Best Wishes > Anita > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi Ray, These things operate on so many levels, so I suppose we get out of it what we do each time we make the encounter. I suppose for me it is that we even are aware of these things and contemplate them at all. Best wishes, raymond ford [rford] Monday, 7 February 2005 2:54 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, I understand what you are saying and agree to the extent that it is " us " for not recognising the " pattern of behaviour that is usually obvious " and it is part of THEIR pattern not mine. Regards Ray Ford - <> <Chinese Medicine > Monday, February 07, 2005 2:19 PM RE: Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Ray and Laura, Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... whilst they turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting myself out' to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them on my days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator to all these patients. Maybe sometimes, it is just us! Best wishes, raymond ford [rford] Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Laura, I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over backwards for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in terms of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so much over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day off(they often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or significantly reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not true in EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means as I am not a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too much for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways BUT not seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces IMMEDIATE results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your time.This can save you a lot of time,energy and money. Regards Ray Ford - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM Arm Pain Case/money issues Hi Sharon, Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered herr time. sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential seriousness of this condition. Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance price. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Laura Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other > subsequently diagnosed. > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your > patients here. > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, > hot, swollen etc). > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 > year olds. > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A > real stuckness. > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia > which Janice explains. > > Best wishes, > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa > etc. > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may > have something to offer in this case. > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > neurological group it is under. > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > Best Wishes > Anita > > > -- > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 One thing I wanted to add about this case--she said that at one point her symptoms suddenly went away, but they came back. Also, this all came on after a great deal of stress. I think that if she doesn't call and make an appointment I will call her and ask her what she can afford. Thanks for all the input! Laura Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Wow, so many great responses! This has been really very helpful for > me to read and think about. One thing that I didn't mention (and > should have!) is that she said, " I cannot afford to pay you the $30 > that I now owe you, so I will wait a month and then start coming in > twice a month " (which is usually a sign that they won't be back). I > left a message for her telling her that I would wave the $30 that she > already owed me, but that from here on out it would be $15 a session. > Then I suggested that she go ahead and make an appointment for a > month from now since she needs evenings and those times go fast....I > haven't heard from her (but its only been a few days). > > You know, if a few things were different I would probably be more > likely to accept the $25 from her insurance as payment: first of all, > as someone suggested, I really am not confident that I can help her > signifcantly, although she did get some improvement after the first > session. If I was, I'd probably be wanting to jump on it. Also, > there's something about her attitude....for one thing, she asked if I > could wave the $25 co-pay DURING the first session, something that she > should have asked before coming, and she seemed to just expect that I > would basically accept a 50% discount. Also, the message she left in > response to my offer for $10 off her co-pay seemed almost > angry...which seemed really very entitled to me---but I could have > misinterpreted that. > > So, anway, thanks for letting me think " out loud " (so to speak). Lots > to consider... > > By the way, I too have found that the people I bend over backwards for > often don't follow through. I prefer to wait and see how they are > before I start bending over backwards for them, but sometimes I have > no choice by necessity--especially since I am still relatively new > with lots to learn. It can be frustrating when I've done a lot of > research and the person stops coming---but at least I've learned a > lot....as I have here. Thanks for the thoughts! > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > Hi Ray and Laura, > > > > Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... > whilst they > > turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting > myself out' > > to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them > on my > > days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator > to all > > these patients. > > > > Maybe sometimes, it is just us! > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > raymond ford [rford@p...] > > Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > Hi Laura, > > I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over > backwards > > for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in > > terms > > of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so > > much > > over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day > off(they > > often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or > significantly > > reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not > true in > > EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means > as I am > > not > > a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too > > much > > for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are > > spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways > BUT not > > seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and > > impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces > IMMEDIATE > > results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your > time.This can > > save you a lot of time,energy and money. > > Regards Ray Ford > > > > > > > > - > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM > > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered > herr > > time. > > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot > > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > > seriousness of this condition. > > > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am > > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem > > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance > price. > > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > wrote: > > > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > > > > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and > > the other > > > subsequently diagnosed. > > > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > > > > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for > > Parkinson > > > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction > > in your > > > patients here. > > > > > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to > > treat > > > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot > > from an > > > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never > > became red, > > > hot, swollen etc). > > > > > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with > > the large > > > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips > > to the > > > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > > > > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face > > jumps to the > > > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in > the GB > > > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This > > sets up > > > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then > > leaves the > > > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop > face > > > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want > > to give > > > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and > read it > > > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > > > > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the > last Px > > > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into > > Parkinson > > > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much > > for 70 > > > year olds. > > > > > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia > > Nigra could > > > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it > > shuts down > > > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is > > injury, > > > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the > > physical > > > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the > > unexpressed > > > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person > never > > > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay > low. A > > > real stuckness. > > > > > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea > of energy > > > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you > > might think > > > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the > channel and > > > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin > > tunia > > > which Janice explains. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > > > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > > > > > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > > > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of > > neurological > > > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both > of your > > > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after > short term > > > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > > > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, > > constitutional, moxa > > > etc. > > > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that > acupuncture/herbs may > > > have something to offer in this case. > > > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point > because > > > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and > at this > > > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > > > neurological group it is under. > > > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of > > scalp > > > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering > peripheral > > > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor > area of > > > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side > > effects of > > > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and > sleep for > > > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone > > disorder, > > > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > > > Best Wishes > > > Anita > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: > 2/3/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web > link page, > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > and > > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > > academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Let us know how you make out Laura. heylaurag [heylaurag] Monday, 7 February 2005 6:31 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues One thing I wanted to add about this case--she said that at one point her symptoms suddenly went away, but they came back. Also, this all came on after a great deal of stress. I think that if she doesn't call and make an appointment I will call her and ask her what she can afford. Thanks for all the input! Laura Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Wow, so many great responses! This has been really very helpful for > me to read and think about. One thing that I didn't mention (and > should have!) is that she said, " I cannot afford to pay you the $30 > that I now owe you, so I will wait a month and then start coming in > twice a month " (which is usually a sign that they won't be back). I > left a message for her telling her that I would wave the $30 that she > already owed me, but that from here on out it would be $15 a session. > Then I suggested that she go ahead and make an appointment for a > month from now since she needs evenings and those times go fast....I > haven't heard from her (but its only been a few days). > > You know, if a few things were different I would probably be more > likely to accept the $25 from her insurance as payment: first of all, > as someone suggested, I really am not confident that I can help her > signifcantly, although she did get some improvement after the first > session. If I was, I'd probably be wanting to jump on it. Also, > there's something about her attitude....for one thing, she asked if I > could wave the $25 co-pay DURING the first session, something that she > should have asked before coming, and she seemed to just expect that I > would basically accept a 50% discount. Also, the message she left in > response to my offer for $10 off her co-pay seemed almost > angry...which seemed really very entitled to me---but I could have > misinterpreted that. > > So, anway, thanks for letting me think " out loud " (so to speak). Lots > to consider... > > By the way, I too have found that the people I bend over backwards for > often don't follow through. I prefer to wait and see how they are > before I start bending over backwards for them, but sometimes I have > no choice by necessity--especially since I am still relatively new > with lots to learn. It can be frustrating when I've done a lot of > research and the person stops coming---but at least I've learned a > lot....as I have here. Thanks for the thoughts! > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > Hi Ray and Laura, > > > > Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... > whilst they > > turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting > myself out' > > to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them > on my > > days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator > to all > > these patients. > > > > Maybe sometimes, it is just us! > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > raymond ford [rford@p...] > > Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > Hi Laura, > > I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over > backwards > > for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in > > terms > > of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so > > much > > over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day > off(they > > often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or > significantly > > reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not > true in > > EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means > as I am > > not > > a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too > > much > > for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are > > spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways > BUT not > > seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and > > impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces > IMMEDIATE > > results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your > time.This can > > save you a lot of time,energy and money. > > Regards Ray Ford > > > > > > > > - > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM > > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered > herr > > time. > > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot > > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > > seriousness of this condition. > > > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am > > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem > > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance > price. > > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > wrote: > > > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > > > > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and > > the other > > > subsequently diagnosed. > > > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > > > > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for > > Parkinson > > > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction > > in your > > > patients here. > > > > > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to > > treat > > > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot > > from an > > > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never > > became red, > > > hot, swollen etc). > > > > > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with > > the large > > > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips > > to the > > > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > > > > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face > > jumps to the > > > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in > the GB > > > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This > > sets up > > > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then > > leaves the > > > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop > face > > > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want > > to give > > > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and > read it > > > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > > > > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the > last Px > > > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into > > Parkinson > > > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much > > for 70 > > > year olds. > > > > > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia > > Nigra could > > > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it > > shuts down > > > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is > > injury, > > > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the > > physical > > > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the > > unexpressed > > > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person > never > > > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay > low. A > > > real stuckness. > > > > > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea > of energy > > > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you > > might think > > > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the > channel and > > > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin > > tunia > > > which Janice explains. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > > > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > > > > > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > > > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of > > neurological > > > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both > of your > > > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after > short term > > > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > > > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, > > constitutional, moxa > > > etc. > > > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that > acupuncture/herbs may > > > have something to offer in this case. > > > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point > because > > > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and > at this > > > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > > > neurological group it is under. > > > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of > > scalp > > > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering > peripheral > > > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor > area of > > > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side > > effects of > > > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and > sleep for > > > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone > > disorder, > > > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > > > Best Wishes > > > Anita > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: > 2/3/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web > link page, > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > and > > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > > academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Laura: I have been following this and may have forgotten a few details. It seems that you take insurance and are willing to accept the $25 up front, bill and wait for payment later. This is a very reasonable fee. This lady has some blocks to being helped right now, and my first impression is Let Her Go. As to whether we feel wobley on if we can help. I think this happens alot to new as well as experienced practitioners. We all have to treat the condition for the first time, otherwise there is no second time. Even if we know a tx has worked for 10 people, it may not work on the 11th. We all have to go in knowing we are giving our best healing and our intention is strong to heal. This is were the wobble is - just knowing that what you " are " doing is with the greatest healing intention. You are also learning and asking questions here, doing research, this is in conjunction with this great healing intention. I agree with Sharon. If you don't have the space empty in your mind - people don't show or come. This is a lesson that she is reminding me of. Continue your great healing, Laura. Anne heylaurag wrote: > > Hi All, > > Wow, so many great responses! This has been really very helpful for > me to read and think about. One thing that I didn't mention (and > should have!) is that she said, " I cannot afford to pay you the $30 > that I now owe you, so I will wait a month and then start coming in > twice a month " (which is usually a sign that they won't be back). I > left a message for her telling her that I would wave the $30 that she > already owed me, but that from here on out it would be $15 a session. > Then I suggested that she go ahead and make an appointment for a > month from now since she needs evenings and those times go fast....I > haven't heard from her (but its only been a few days). > > You know, if a few things were different I would probably be more > likely to accept the $25 from her insurance as payment: first of all, > as someone suggested, I really am not confident that I can help her > signifcantly, although she did get some improvement after the first > session. If I was, I'd probably be wanting to jump on it. Also, > there's something about her attitude....for one thing, she asked if I > could wave the $25 co-pay DURING the first session, something that she > should have asked before coming, and she seemed to just expect that I > would basically accept a 50% discount. Also, the message she left in > response to my offer for $10 off her co-pay seemed almost > angry...which seemed really very entitled to me---but I could have > misinterpreted that. > > So, anway, thanks for letting me think " out loud " (so to speak). Lots > to consider... > > By the way, I too have found that the people I bend over backwards for > often don't follow through. I prefer to wait and see how they are > before I start bending over backwards for them, but sometimes I have > no choice by necessity--especially since I am still relatively new > with lots to learn. It can be frustrating when I've done a lot of > research and the person stops coming---but at least I've learned a > lot....as I have here. Thanks for the thoughts! > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > Hi Ray and Laura, > > > > Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... > whilst they > > turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting > myself out' > > to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them > on my > > days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator > to all > > these patients. > > > > Maybe sometimes, it is just us! > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > raymond ford [rford@p...] > > Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > Hi Laura, > > I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over > backwards > > for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in > > terms > > of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so > > much > > over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day > off(they > > often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or > significantly > > reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not > true in > > EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means > as I am > > not > > a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too > > much > > for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are > > spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways > BUT not > > seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and > > impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces > IMMEDIATE > > results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your > time.This can > > save you a lot of time,energy and money. > > Regards Ray Ford > > > > > > > > - > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM > > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered > herr > > time. > > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot > > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > > seriousness of this condition. > > > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am > > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem > > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance > price. > > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > wrote: > > > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > > > > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and > > the other > > > subsequently diagnosed. > > > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > > > > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for > > Parkinson > > > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction > > in your > > > patients here. > > > > > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to > > treat > > > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot > > from an > > > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never > > became red, > > > hot, swollen etc). > > > > > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with > > the large > > > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips > > to the > > > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > > > > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face > > jumps to the > > > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in > the GB > > > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This > > sets up > > > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then > > leaves the > > > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop > face > > > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want > > to give > > > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and > read it > > > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > > > > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the > last Px > > > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into > > Parkinson > > > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much > > for 70 > > > year olds. > > > > > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia > > Nigra could > > > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it > > shuts down > > > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is > > injury, > > > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the > > physical > > > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the > > unexpressed > > > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person > never > > > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay > low. A > > > real stuckness. > > > > > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea > of energy > > > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you > > might think > > > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the > channel and > > > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin > > tunia > > > which Janice explains. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > > > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > > > > > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > > > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of > > neurological > > > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both > of your > > > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after > short term > > > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > > > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, > > constitutional, moxa > > > etc. > > > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that > acupuncture/herbs may > > > have something to offer in this case. > > > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point > because > > > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and > at this > > > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > > > neurological group it is under. > > > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of > > scalp > > > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering > peripheral > > > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor > area of > > > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side > > effects of > > > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and > sleep for > > > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone > > disorder, > > > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > > > Best Wishes > > > Anita > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: > 2/3/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web > link page, > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > and > > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > > academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi Anne, Thanks for the positive words and support. This lady has insurance that pays $25, and her co-pay is $25. I gave her $10 off her co-pay, and she said she still couldn't afford to come until next month, and then only twice a month. Since I only have one treatment room at this point, and she wants an evening appointment (which is always easy to fill), I would basically be paying her to treat her. Given the fact that at this early point in my career I probably make less money than she does as a school teacher, I am reluctant to reduce her co-pay even more than I already have. Anyway, that's the summary. It seems like someone else who isn't just barely getting by financially and has more than one treatment room would be better equipped to help her. I especially appreciate what you said about treating things for the first time. I need to remember that. Laura Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <blazing.valley@v...> wrote: > Laura: > > I have been following this and may have forgotten a few details. It > seems that you take insurance and are willing to accept the $25 up > front, bill and wait for payment later. This is a very reasonable fee. > This lady has some blocks to being helped right now, and my first > impression is Let Her Go. > > As to whether we feel wobley on if we can help. I think this happens > alot to new as well as experienced practitioners. We all have to treat > the condition for the first time, otherwise there is no second time. > Even if we know a tx has worked for 10 people, it may not work on the 11th. > > We all have to go in knowing we are giving our best healing and our > intention is strong to heal. This is were the wobble is - just knowing > that what you " are " doing is with the greatest healing intention. You > are also learning and asking questions here, doing research, this is in > conjunction with this great healing intention. > > I agree with Sharon. If you don't have the space empty in your mind - > people don't show or come. This is a lesson that she is reminding me of. > > Continue your great healing, Laura. > > Anne > > heylaurag wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Wow, so many great responses! This has been really very helpful for > > me to read and think about. One thing that I didn't mention (and > > should have!) is that she said, " I cannot afford to pay you the $30 > > that I now owe you, so I will wait a month and then start coming in > > twice a month " (which is usually a sign that they won't be back). I > > left a message for her telling her that I would wave the $30 that she > > already owed me, but that from here on out it would be $15 a session. > > Then I suggested that she go ahead and make an appointment for a > > month from now since she needs evenings and those times go fast....I > > haven't heard from her (but its only been a few days). > > > > You know, if a few things were different I would probably be more > > likely to accept the $25 from her insurance as payment: first of all, > > as someone suggested, I really am not confident that I can help her > > signifcantly, although she did get some improvement after the first > > session. If I was, I'd probably be wanting to jump on it. Also, > > there's something about her attitude....for one thing, she asked if I > > could wave the $25 co-pay DURING the first session, something that she > > should have asked before coming, and she seemed to just expect that I > > would basically accept a 50% discount. Also, the message she left in > > response to my offer for $10 off her co-pay seemed almost > > angry...which seemed really very entitled to me---but I could have > > misinterpreted that. > > > > So, anway, thanks for letting me think " out loud " (so to speak). Lots > > to consider... > > > > By the way, I too have found that the people I bend over backwards for > > often don't follow through. I prefer to wait and see how they are > > before I start bending over backwards for them, but sometimes I have > > no choice by necessity--especially since I am still relatively new > > with lots to learn. It can be frustrating when I've done a lot of > > research and the person stops coming---but at least I've learned a > > lot....as I have here. Thanks for the thoughts! > > > > Laura > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > wrote: > > > Hi Ray and Laura, > > > > > > Ray, I had the same thing of seeing patients on my off days.... > > whilst they > > > turned up they seldom re-booked. I was complaining of 'putting > > myself out' > > > to a colleague who suggested that since I didn't want to treat them > > on my > > > days off, then perhaps I was the problem, as the common denominator > > to all > > > these patients. > > > > > > Maybe sometimes, it is just us! > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > raymond ford [rford@p...] > > > Monday, 7 February 2005 1:02 PM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Re: Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > > > > Hi Laura, > > > I have found over a number of years that the people I bend over > > backwards > > > for the most wether it be with time or money,are the LEAST reliable in > > > terms > > > of their own commitment with THEIR time and money.This has happened so > > > much > > > over the years for example when I come in to treat them on my day > > off(they > > > often do not show up,with usually pathetic excuses later) or > > significantly > > > reducing the fee,often doesn't help at all.Of course this is not > > true in > > > EVERY case but many in my experience.I do not know what it means > > as I am > > > not > > > a psychologist but I think people do not value what we do if we do too > > > much > > > for them especially when they can do it for themselves.Often they are > > > spending money on alcohol or ciggarettes or in other wasteful ways > > BUT not > > > seeing what we do as equal value.They are often the most demanding and > > > impatient of clients.I tell them that infinate patience produces > > IMMEDIATE > > > results AND make sure they are commited or don't waste your > > time.This can > > > save you a lot of time,energy and money. > > > Regards Ray Ford > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:39 AM > > > Arm Pain Case/money issues > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sharon, > > > > > > Wow, fascinating stuff. I will definitely look into downloading it. > > > > > > I am really concerned about this woman, and not sure what to do > > > because she says that she cannot afford her $25 co-pay. I offered > > herr > > > time. > > > sessions with a reduced co-pay of $15, but she claims that she cannot > > > handle that either. I find that hard to believe...she's a school > > > teacher, which I know doesn't pay a lot, but $15? Surely she could > > > afford that. I think the more likely story is that 1. She expected > > > instant results and since the second treatment wasn't helpful she's > > > giving up faith and 2. She's underestimating the potential > > > seriousness of this condition. > > > > > > Hard to know what to do. As it is, with the deal I am giving her I am > > > paying her $10 a session to treat her because I would have no problem > > > filling her slot with someone who would pay the regular insurance > > price. > > > > > > Anyone have any thoughts on that? > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Anita, Lori and all! > > > > > > > > I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and > > > the other > > > > subsequently diagnosed. > > > > http://www.pdrecovery.org/ > > > > > > > > I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for > > > Parkinson > > > > recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction > > > in your > > > > patients here. > > > > > > > > In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to > > > treat > > > > manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot > > > from an > > > > unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never > > > became red, > > > > hot, swollen etc). > > > > > > > > The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with > > > the large > > > > intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips > > > to the > > > > chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. > > > > > > > > Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face > > > jumps to the > > > > GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in > > the GB > > > > channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This > > > sets up > > > > what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then > > > leaves the > > > > face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop > > face > > > > expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want > > > to give > > > > you enough that you might want to download the large manual and > > read it > > > > through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. > > > > > > > > BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the > > last Px > > > > declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into > > > Parkinson > > > > and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much > > > for 70 > > > > year olds. > > > > > > > > I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia > > > Nigra could > > > > have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it > > > shuts down > > > > production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is > > > injury, > > > > so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the > > > physical > > > > injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the > > > unexpressed > > > > injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person > > never > > > > actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay > > low. A > > > > real stuckness. > > > > > > > > Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea > > of energy > > > > cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you > > > might think > > > > of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the > > channel and > > > > this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin > > > tunia > > > > which Janice explains. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anita Binnington [abinnington@s...] > > > > Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Re: Re: Arm Pain Case > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, > > > > Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of > > > neurological > > > > disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both > > of your > > > > clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after > > short term > > > > use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and > > > > symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, > > > constitutional, moxa > > > > etc. > > > > I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that > > acupuncture/herbs may > > > > have something to offer in this case. > > > > This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point > > because > > > > that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and > > at this > > > > point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which > > > > neurological group it is under. > > > > As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of > > > scalp > > > > acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering > > peripheral > > > > neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor > > area of > > > > arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side > > > effects of > > > > dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and > > sleep for > > > > hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone > > > disorder, > > > > and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? > > > > Best Wishes > > > > Anita > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: > > 2/3/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web > > link page, > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > adjust > > > > accordingly. > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > > the group > > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other > > > academics, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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