Guest guest Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to treatment, and am looking for some ideas. The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with heating pad. Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi points. Has undergone various tests, has attempted medication and physical therapy, no cause of pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for now. Left arm has similar sensation, not nearly as bad as right. Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, pain develops after walking for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an hour. Again, pain is in a general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms include decreased libido, difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling of weakness. Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in back. Chi position, both sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, other positions tend to be moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an interrupted pulse, there is a skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had not previously been told of any arrhythmia. My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in Shao Yang, with underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've tried to concentrate on coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The only response was to the first treatment, which used no local points and concentrated more on the underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first he said he had no response so I changed my treatment to concentrate more on channel points. I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to the pain in the arms, and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis and pathogenesis that I could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Lori Lori Barns, L.Ac. Synergy Acupuncture, PLC Phone: 703-752-1908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 I think you got a pretty good assessment of the situation. Try 5 g of Yan Hu Suo (a.k.a . Xuan Hu - Corydalis turtschaninovii) + 3 g of Hong Hua (Carthamus tinctorius) and see how many of the symptoms disappear. For acupoints, I would use the Four Gate Points (LI-4 and Liv 3) + Sp-10 and PC-6. Add Kd 6 if you think it's necessary. In the meantime, you may also ask him to beware of symptoms like congested chest or chest pain. If he senses those symptoms, he should also see his family doctor as well as coming to you. Just my 2 cents. Ming Lori Barns <loribarns wrote: I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to treatment, and am looking for some ideas. The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with heating pad. Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi points. Has undergone various tests, has attempted medication and physical therapy, no cause of pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for now. Left arm has similar sensation, not nearly as bad as right. Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, pain develops after walking for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an hour. Again, pain is in a general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms include decreased libido, difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling of weakness. Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in back. Chi position, both sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, other positions tend to be moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an interrupted pulse, there is a skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had not previously been told of any arrhythmia. My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in Shao Yang, with underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've tried to concentrate on coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The only response was to the first treatment, which used no local points and concentrated more on the underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first he said he had no response so I changed my treatment to concentrate more on channel points. I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to the pain in the arms, and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis and pathogenesis that I could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Lori Lori Barns, L.Ac. Synergy Acupuncture, PLC Phone: 703-752-1908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Lori Barns wrote: > I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to > treatment, and am looking for some ideas. > > The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. > Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper > right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with > heating pad. Hi Lori! I have a similar situation here. Is the patient overweight? How is his back? The situation I have here is relieved by loss of weight and chiropractic manipulation. This isn't TCM, but it helps. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Hi Lori, Sometimes for stubborn problems it can help to combine intradermal needles in reactive ear and hand micro points and body points. You may find reactive points along the ear's or hand's spine as well as at shoulder/arm/wrist pts etc. Perhaps look for ashi pts on the limbs or hwato pts. Best wishes, Lori Barns [loribarns] Wednesday, 2 February 2005 9:16 AM Chinese Medicine Arm pain case I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to treatment, and am looking for some ideas. The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with heating pad. Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi points. Has undergone various tests, has attempted medication and physical therapy, no cause of pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for now. Left arm has similar sensation, not nearly as bad as right. Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, pain develops after walking for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an hour. Again, pain is in a general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms include decreased libido, difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling of weakness. Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in back. Chi position, both sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, other positions tend to be moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an interrupted pulse, there is a skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had not previously been told of any arrhythmia. My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in Shao Yang, with underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've tried to concentrate on coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The only response was to the first treatment, which used no local points and concentrated more on the underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first he said he had no response so I changed my treatment to concentrate more on channel points. I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to the pain in the arms, and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis and pathogenesis that I could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Lori Lori Barns, L.Ac. Synergy Acupuncture, PLC Phone: 703-752-1908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Lori: Does he have the diabetes under control? If he's overweight, sounds like not. Look at lumbar points for the lower, maybe. My two yuan. Jack --- Pete Theisen <petet wrote: > Lori Barns wrote: > > I have a patient who has not been responding all > that well to > > treatment, and am looking for some ideas. > > > > The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no > other health issues. > > Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ > channel on upper > > right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes > sharp, better with > > heating pad. > > > Hi Lori! > > I have a similar situation here. Is the patient > overweight? How is his > back? The situation I have here is relieved by loss > of weight and > chiropractic manipulation. This isn't TCM, but it > helps. > > Regards, > > Pete > ===== http://www.geocities.com/mojavecowboy/clinicgz.htm TCM Acupuncture, Herbs, M.A., M.J.,M.L.I.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Hi Lori, You mentioned that your patient's right arm pain gets worse " at night. " Do you mean when sleeping or just at the end of the day. I suspect you mean while sleeping which could suggest some sort of compression (nerve or qi channel - take your pick) from a sleeping position. This seems likely also by the mention of exacerbation while driving or talking on the phone - two activities that could cause similar compression in the cervical and/or shoulder region. If your patient feels this pain while lying on his back on your treatment table, try a few minutes of mild manual cervical traction and see if the pain subsides. If it does it is likely of cervical origin. In addition to the specialized TCM diagnostic techniques (pulse, tongue, etc.) one of the most helpful things to consider when taking a patient's history is what, exactly, makes symptoms better or worse. You can often track the source of many problems in this manner. In case anyone considers this a modern, mechanical approach, it is really exactly a yin/yang approach - just like considering if hot or cold makes symptoms better or worse, etc. On the other hand - this patient's history of diabetes, and the mention of similar symptoms in the legs and absence of ah-shi points, leaves open the possibility of a neuropathy-like condition - although I would feel this pathology would be more likely if his leg pains did not seem to only happen after walking or driving long periods. That type of leg pains could be from lumbar area problems as well. It may be helpful to try to figure our if the arm and leg pains are two separate, coincidental orthopedic type problems, or symptoms related to a more generalized underlying condition. Careful consideration of the nuances of these symptoms - when they first started and/or took sharp turns for the worse, what makes them better or worse, etc., should help you to ferret these questions out. Figuring out such puzzles is what makes our work so interesting and rewarding. - Matt Bauer - Lori Barns Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 01, 2005 3:15 PM Arm pain case I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to treatment, and am looking for some ideas. The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with heating pad. Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi points. Has undergone various tests, has attempted medication and physical therapy, no cause of pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for now. Left arm has similar sensation, not nearly as bad as right. Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, pain develops after walking for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an hour. Again, pain is in a general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms include decreased libido, difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling of weakness. Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in back. Chi position, both sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, other positions tend to be moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an interrupted pulse, there is a skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had not previously been told of any arrhythmia. My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in Shao Yang, with underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've tried to concentrate on coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The only response was to the first treatment, which used no local points and concentrated more on the underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first he said he had no response so I changed my treatment to concentrate more on channel points. I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to the pain in the arms, and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis and pathogenesis that I could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Lori Lori Barns, L.Ac. Synergy Acupuncture, PLC Phone: 703-752-1908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Hi Lori, I have had cause to treat people with peripheral neuropathy, motor nuerone, and genetic neurological disorders and it would appear to me that your clients pain pattern is somewhat similar ie of a neurological either peripheral on central, etiology. The fact that he is not responding to standard or obvious treatment approaches of local or meridian treatment, but did respond to systemic treatment also suggests something more occurring. Even MS also has inital symptoms something like this. Of course the only real way to confirm this is muscle conduction testing etc. You could also try to see if any of his reflexes on the 4 peripheries exist. In my treatments of the above cases I concentrated on constitutional and Huato Jia Ji points also DU and REN Mo. My treatments did not stop the inevitable progression but seemed to assist with pain dysfunction eating speaking until the last 6mths etc, Best Wishes Anita Lori Barns wrote: >I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to treatment, and am looking for some ideas. > >The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. Main complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper right arm. Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with heating pad. Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi points. Has undergone various tests, has attempted medication and physical therapy, no cause of pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for now. Left arm has similar sensation, not nearly as bad as right. > >Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, pain develops after walking for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an hour. Again, pain is in a general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms include decreased libido, difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling of weakness. > >Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in back. Chi position, both sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, other positions tend to be moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an interrupted pulse, there is a skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had not previously been told of any arrhythmia. > >My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in Shao Yang, with underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've tried to concentrate on coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The only response was to the first treatment, which used no local points and concentrated more on the underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first he said he had no response so I changed my treatment to concentrate more on channel points. > >I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to the pain in the arms, and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis and pathogenesis that I could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > >Lori > >Lori Barns, L.Ac. >Synergy Acupuncture, PLC >Phone: 703-752-1908 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Lori, treating SJ pain with the balance method of Dr. Richard Tan, chose to balance the SJ with the Kidney channel. (this will also address the Kidney XU root cause). Look at the Kidney channel on the opposite limb and find Ashi points mirroring the pain in the arm, needle them with strong stimulation for 45 minutes. You may also use the Kidney channel to do a seasonal balance, using Kid. 1, Kid 7 and Kid 10. This will cover the entire SJ meridian, from finger tips to shoulder. Or you may use Kid. 2, Kid 3 and Kid 4 as a seasonal treatment, however, this will emphasize treating SJ pain in the shoulder, elbow or wrist. Chose 1 of the three suggestions and give him a few treatments to see results. All three treatment plans are used successfully at the clinic for several years. Best to you. Ilan Migdali > " Lori Barns " <loribarns >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > > Arm pain case >Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:15:45 -0500 > > >I have a patient who has not been responding all that well to treatment, >and am looking for some ideas. > >The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no other health issues. Main >complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ channel on upper right arm. >Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, better with heating pad. >Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi points. Has undergone >various tests, has attempted medication and physical therapy, no cause of >pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for now. Left arm has similar >sensation, not nearly as bad as right. > >Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, pain develops after walking >for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an hour. Again, pain is in a >general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms include decreased libido, >difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling of weakness. > >Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in back. Chi position, both >sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, other positions tend to be >moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an interrupted pulse, there is a >skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had not previously been told >of any arrhythmia. > >My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in Shao Yang, with >underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've tried to concentrate on >coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The only response was to the >first treatment, which used no local points and concentrated more on the >underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first he said he had no >response so I changed my treatment to concentrate more on channel points. > >I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to the pain in the arms, >and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis and pathogenesis that I >could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > >Lori > >Lori Barns, L.Ac. >Synergy Acupuncture, PLC >Phone: 703-752-1908 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Thanks to Pete, Ming, Matt, Sharon, Jack, Anita, and Ross for responding. Sorry it takes so long for me to get back, but I read the forum in the digest version and therefore always seem to be about a day or two behind...... Anyway, some sort of nerve impingement is possible since the patient did experience pain in the arm just lying on my table. Didn't occur to me at the time to try cervical traction, seems obvious now. He is a short and stocky guy, claims his diabetes is under control, but his obesity and admission that he couldn't stick to a diet does undermine his assertion -- it doesn't sound like he is doing any daily blood testing. Pain in the legs after walking a while, could this indicate a circulatory problem? I'll need to verify that he actually mentioned this to his physician. Lori Barns, L.Ac. Synergy Acupuncture, PLC 2775-B Hartland Road Falls Church, VA 22043 Phone: 703-752-1908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Lori: Ilan's suggestion seems sound, I was thinking last night that K2 and K3 would be especially useful because they help control diabetes symptoms. Jack --- MIGDALI ILAN <acucare wrote: > > Lori, treating SJ pain with the balance method of > Dr. Richard Tan, chose to > balance the SJ with the Kidney channel. (this will > also address the Kidney > XU root cause). Look at the Kidney channel on the > opposite limb and find > Ashi points mirroring the pain in the arm, needle > them with strong > stimulation for 45 minutes. You may also use the > Kidney channel to do a > seasonal balance, using Kid. 1, Kid 7 and Kid 10. > This will cover the entire > SJ meridian, from finger tips to shoulder. Or you > may use Kid. 2, Kid 3 and > Kid 4 as a seasonal treatment, however, this will > emphasize treating SJ pain > in the shoulder, elbow or wrist. Chose 1 of the > three suggestions and give > him a few treatments to see results. All three > treatment plans are used > successfully at the clinic for several years. > Best to you. > Ilan Migdali > > > " Lori Barns " <loribarns > > > Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > > Arm pain case > >Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:15:45 -0500 > > > > > >I have a patient who has not been responding all > that well to treatment, > >and am looking for some ideas. > > > >The patient is a 59 year old male, diabetic, no > other health issues. Main > >complaint is arm pain, in general area of SJ > channel on upper right arm. > >Pain is worse at night, when it becomes sharp, > better with heating pad. > >Some pain when driving or talking on phone. No Ashi > points. Has undergone > >various tests, has attempted medication and > physical therapy, no cause of > >pain found. He's putting off getting an mri for > now. Left arm has similar > >sensation, not nearly as bad as right. > > > >Patient also has a similar problem in his legs, > pain develops after walking > >for more than 45 minutes, driving more than an > hour. Again, pain is in a > >general area, no ashi points. Other symptoms > include decreased libido, > >difficulty emptying bladder, and a general feeling > of weakness. > > > >Tongue is purple, swollen, with some yellow fur in > back. Chi position, both > >sides, is deep and weak, left cun is also weak, > other positions tend to be > >moderate to slightly wiry. He does have an > interrupted pulse, there is a > >skipped beat every thirty beats or so. Patient had > not previously been told > >of any arrhythmia. > > > >My diagnosis was blood stagnation caused by cold in > Shao Yang, with > >underlying Kidney deficiency. However, when I've > tried to concentrate on > >coursing the Shao Yang, he has not responded. The > only response was to the > >first treatment, which used no local points and > concentrated more on the > >underlying condition. Or so he says now, at first > he said he had no > >response so I changed my treatment to concentrate > more on channel points. > > > >I feel that the pain in the legs must be related to > the pain in the arms, > >and that if I had a better handle on the diagnosis > and pathogenesis that I > >could find a better treatment. Any ideas would be > greatly appreciated. > > > >Lori > > > >Lori Barns, L.Ac. > >Synergy Acupuncture, PLC > >Phone: 703-752-1908 > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > >To translate this message, copy and paste it into > this web link page, > >http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > and adjust > >accordingly. > > > >Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group > >requires prior permission from the author. > > > >If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM > with other academics, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Hi Lori and all, Wow, I have a very similar case with a woman who is 58 years old. Pain is in the upper arms and thighs. Its like a band around all limbs with loss of range of motion. My patient also has had some shaking, which has made me concerned about neuropathy. She did feel better after the first treatment but no results after the second one. The first one I did a combination of constitutional points with some Richard Tan points. The second I did plum blossom on the area of pain and then Richard Tan points. Frankly, I almost never use plum blossom, so this was an experiment...that failed. Its hard to know whether I would have gotten results if I had not used the plum blossom, but I kinda doubt it (could the plum blossom have gotten in the way??....it seems like whenever I attempt to use something like plum blossom or gua sha I get poor results, so I rarely try). Anyway, it seems like a combination of constitutional points and Richard Tan points is useful. Let me know if you discover anything that might help my patient, and I'll do the same. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Lori Barns " <loribarns@e...> wrote: > > Thanks to Pete, Ming, Matt, Sharon, Jack, Anita, and Ross for responding. Sorry it takes so long for me to get back, but I read the forum in the digest version and therefore always seem to be about a day or two behind...... > > Anyway, some sort of nerve impingement is possible since the patient did experience pain in the arm just lying on my table. Didn't occur to me at the time to try cervical traction, seems obvious now. He is a short and stocky guy, claims his diabetes is under control, but his obesity and admission that he couldn't stick to a diet does undermine his assertion -- it doesn't sound like he is doing any daily blood testing. > > Pain in the legs after walking a while, could this indicate a circulatory problem? I'll need to verify that he actually mentioned this to his physician. > > > Lori Barns, L.Ac. > Synergy Acupuncture, PLC > 2775-B Hartland Road > Falls Church, VA 22043 > Phone: 703-752-1908 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Hi Laura and All, It occurred to me that you might be looking at what might eventually be diagnosed as Parkinson. The stiffness is typical. One early s & s of Parkinson is loss of smell... do hope I am wrong.... but just in case thought to post my 2 cents worth. Best wishes, heylaurag [heylaurag] Friday, 4 February 2005 6:19 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Arm Pain Case Hi Lori and all, Wow, I have a very similar case with a woman who is 58 years old. Pain is in the upper arms and thighs. Its like a band around all limbs with loss of range of motion. My patient also has had some shaking, which has made me concerned about neuropathy. She did feel better after the first treatment but no results after the second one. The first one I did a combination of constitutional points with some Richard Tan points. The second I did plum blossom on the area of pain and then Richard Tan points. Frankly, I almost never use plum blossom, so this was an experiment...that failed. Its hard to know whether I would have gotten results if I had not used the plum blossom, but I kinda doubt it (could the plum blossom have gotten in the way??....it seems like whenever I attempt to use something like plum blossom or gua sha I get poor results, so I rarely try). Anyway, it seems like a combination of constitutional points and Richard Tan points is useful. Let me know if you discover anything that might help my patient, and I'll do the same. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Lori Barns " <loribarns@e...> wrote: > > Thanks to Pete, Ming, Matt, Sharon, Jack, Anita, and Ross for responding. Sorry it takes so long for me to get back, but I read the forum in the digest version and therefore always seem to be about a day or two behind...... > > Anyway, some sort of nerve impingement is possible since the patient did experience pain in the arm just lying on my table. Didn't occur to me at the time to try cervical traction, seems obvious now. He is a short and stocky guy, claims his diabetes is under control, but his obesity and admission that he couldn't stick to a diet does undermine his assertion -- it doesn't sound like he is doing any daily blood testing. > > Pain in the legs after walking a while, could this indicate a circulatory problem? I'll need to verify that he actually mentioned this to his physician. > > > Lori Barns, L.Ac. > Synergy Acupuncture, PLC > 2775-B Hartland Road > Falls Church, VA 22043 > Phone: 703-752-1908 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Laura, Have you tried scalp and cerebella points? Mike L. heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Hi Lori and all, Wow, I have a very similar case with a woman who is 58 years old. Pain is in the upper arms and thighs. Its like a band around all limbs with loss of range of motion. My patient also has had some shaking, which has made me concerned about neuropathy. She did feel better after the first treatment but no results after the second one. The first one I did a combination of constitutional points with some Richard Tan points. The second I did plum blossom on the area of pain and then Richard Tan points. Frankly, I almost never use plum blossom, so this was an experiment...that failed. Its hard to know whether I would have gotten results if I had not used the plum blossom, but I kinda doubt it (could the plum blossom have gotten in the way??....it seems like whenever I attempt to use something like plum blossom or gua sha I get poor results, so I rarely try). Anyway, it seems like a combination of constitutional points and Richard Tan points is useful. Let me know if you discover anything that might help my patient, and I'll do the same. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Lori Barns " <loribarns@e...> wrote: > > Thanks to Pete, Ming, Matt, Sharon, Jack, Anita, and Ross for responding. Sorry it takes so long for me to get back, but I read the forum in the digest version and therefore always seem to be about a day or two behind...... > > Anyway, some sort of nerve impingement is possible since the patient did experience pain in the arm just lying on my table. Didn't occur to me at the time to try cervical traction, seems obvious now. He is a short and stocky guy, claims his diabetes is under control, but his obesity and admission that he couldn't stick to a diet does undermine his assertion -- it doesn't sound like he is doing any daily blood testing. > > Pain in the legs after walking a while, could this indicate a circulatory problem? I'll need to verify that he actually mentioned this to his physician. > > > Lori Barns, L.Ac. > Synergy Acupuncture, PLC > 2775-B Hartland Road > Falls Church, VA 22043 > Phone: 703-752-1908 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Hi Lori, If the pain is in the calves on walking it could indeed be a circulatory problem. In Western medicine is known as Intermittant Claudication. The calf muscles are starved of blood/oxygen and therefore begin to cramp.Usually caused by narrowing of the arteries. Don't know if this will be of any help to you. Regards. Val Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 From a Western point of view, the neuropathy is almost certain to be central. You might be looking at a case of Parkinson's. Avery L. Jenkins, DC, DACBN, FIAMA Chiropractic Physician Diplomate, American Clinical Board of Nutrition Fellow, International Academy of Medical Acupuncture Kent, CT www.docaltmed.com " Life expands and contracts in proportion to one's courage. " -- Anais Nin - " heylaurag " <heylaurag <Chinese Medicine > Friday, February 04, 2005 3:18 AM Re: Arm Pain Case > > > > Hi Lori and all, > > Wow, I have a very similar case with a woman who is 58 years old. > Pain is in the upper arms and thighs. Its like a band around all > limbs with loss of range of motion. My patient also has had some > shaking, which has made me concerned about neuropathy. > > She did feel better after the first treatment but no results after the > second one. The first one I did a combination of constitutional > points with some Richard Tan points. The second I did plum blossom on > the area of pain and then Richard Tan points. Frankly, I almost never > use plum blossom, so this was an experiment...that failed. Its hard > to know whether I would have gotten results if I had not used the plum > blossom, but I kinda doubt it (could the plum blossom have gotten in > the way??....it seems like whenever I attempt to use something like > plum blossom or gua sha I get poor results, so I rarely try). > > Anyway, it seems like a combination of constitutional points and > Richard Tan points is useful. Let me know if you discover anything > that might help my patient, and I'll do the same. > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , " Lori Barns " > <loribarns@e...> wrote: >> >> Thanks to Pete, Ming, Matt, Sharon, Jack, Anita, and Ross for > responding. Sorry it takes so long for me to get back, but I read the > forum in the digest version and therefore always seem to be about a > day or two behind...... >> >> Anyway, some sort of nerve impingement is possible since the patient > did experience pain in the arm just lying on my table. Didn't occur to > me at the time to try cervical traction, seems obvious now. He is a > short and stocky guy, claims his diabetes is under control, but his > obesity and admission that he couldn't stick to a diet does undermine > his assertion -- it doesn't sound like he is doing any daily blood > testing. >> >> Pain in the legs after walking a while, could this indicate a > circulatory problem? I'll need to verify that he actually mentioned > this to his physician. >> >> >> Lori Barns, L.Ac. >> Synergy Acupuncture, PLC >> 2775-B Hartland Road >> Falls Church, VA 22043 >> Phone: 703-752-1908 >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa etc. I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may have something to offer in this case. This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which neurological group it is under. As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? Best Wishes Anita -- Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Hi Anita, Lori and all! I have treated 3 people with Parkinson, 2 previously diagnosed and the other subsequently diagnosed. http://www.pdrecovery.org/ I predominately used these acupuncture strategies at this site for Parkinson recovery. I think Anita you might find your answers to the reaction in your patients here. In brief, go to the site and down load the free practitioner how to treat manual, their is typically a blockage on the ST channel in the foot from an unexpressed injury (ie the person hurt their foot but it never became red, hot, swollen etc). The qi is said to back up the St channel and at the junction with the large intestine channel the additional qi cannot flow from the finger tips to the chest, and reverberates back to the fingers,... hence the tremor. Also there is now excess qi in the ST channel which on the face jumps to the GB channel... and from memory there is this constant excess in the GB channel running in parallel to the UB channel on the scalp. This sets up what I think Janice says is a capacitor effect. This jump then leaves the face part of the St channel deficient and that explains the drop face expression. Now she explains this all in many pages. I just want to give you enough that you might want to download the large manual and read it through. If you do, I would be keen to hear your thoughts. BTW all the patients I treated felt her approach worked with the last Px declaring himself cured by acupuncture...my first Px was well into Parkinson and they would have continued but the 140km round trip was too much for 70 year olds. I wanted also to see if the use of ear points for the Substantia Nigra could have brought it back on line in the brain. Her idea is that it shuts down production or use (I can't recall which) of dopamine when there is injury, so the person or animal can rest without being restless with the physical injury. In the case of Parkinson the idea I think is this, the unexpressed injury is like a scratch on the old vinyl records as the person never actually gets through the old injury so the dopamine levels stay low. A real stuckness. Another idea I came across in Craniosacral reading is the idea of energy cysts, can't recall if that was their term or mine. Anyway you might think of the old unexpressed injury as an energy cyst blocking the channel and this is first removed on the foot and or other locations using a yin tunia which Janice explains. Best wishes, Anita Binnington [abinnington] Saturday, 5 February 2005 11:24 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Arm Pain Case Hi Lori,Heylaurg etc, Putting in my 2 cents worth again. I have treated a lot of neurological disorder ie motor neuron etc, and all these symptoms of both of your clients have a good deal of similarities, ie fatigue after short term use, pain in both arms and legs, left /right imbalance of pain and symptoms. I have used scalp acupuncture, Jiaji pts, constitutional, moxa etc. I have not treated Parkinsons but believe that acupuncture/herbs may have something to offer in this case. This is why the diagnosis (western) is important at this point because that will better help determine the outcome of treatmen,and at this point TCM does not have diagnostic criteria to ascertain which neurological group it is under. As an aside, I have experienced some interesting side effects of scalp acupuncture while treating 2 clients whom were suffering peripheral neuropathy. When I included scalp acupuncture on their motor area of arms and legs, connected to electrodes, both had severe side effects of dizziness and sleeepiness where they had to go to bed and sleep for hours over a few days. This did not occur with motor neurone disorder, and sometimes occurs with stroke paralysis. Any ideas? Best Wishes Anita -- Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release 2/3/2005 http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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